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	<title>Comments on: The Times  engages in torture</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/</link>
	<description>The unbearable lightness of Lex. Enjoy!</description>
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		<title>By: badbob</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2614</link>
		<dc:creator>badbob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2614</guid>
		<description>The only NYT&#039;s metric I care about:

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=NYT&amp;script=300&amp;layout=-6

That Lex is the bottomline.

re Mr. Tice:

Read his staement-   &quot;I intend to report to Congress probable unlawful and unconstitutional acts conducted while I was an intelligence officer with the National Security Agency and with the Defense Intelligence Agency,&quot; Mr. Tice stated in the Dec. 16 letters&quot;

Probable? What a pontificating statement......White Knight? We&#039;ll see. I&#039;m sure there are Joey Wilson types at the NSA, too. 

B2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The only NYT&#8217;s metric I care about:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=NYT&#038;script=300&#038;layout=-6" rel="nofollow">http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=NYT&#038;script=300&#038;layout=-6</a></p>
<p>That Lex is the bottomline.</p>
<p>re Mr. Tice:</p>
<p>Read his staement-   &#8220;I intend to report to Congress probable unlawful and unconstitutional acts conducted while I was an intelligence officer with the National Security Agency and with the Defense Intelligence Agency,&#8221; Mr. Tice stated in the Dec. 16 letters&#8221;</p>
<p>Probable? What a pontificating statement&#8230;&#8230;White Knight? We&#8217;ll see. I&#8217;m sure there are Joey Wilson types at the NSA, too. </p>
<p>B2</p>
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		<title>By: lex</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2609</link>
		<dc:creator>lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 14:32:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2609</guid>
		<description>RJL - You&#039;re one of two L-school grads I know of that drop by here, and the other one hasn&#039;t been around in a while, so thanks especially for your point of view. 

You know, there was a time  in the way back when that I thought I might leave the service and dip my toe in the legal waters. I don&#039;t know that I&#039;d have been able to take the evident joy in disputation that good lawyers seem to do, nor yet become entertained by this sort of twisted reasoning. But I do, like you, entertain a higher regard for the public&#039;s common sense than does their herald.

Steve - Ah! The white knight revealed at last. A whistleblower, or an axe-grinder? Both, a little, probably. 

But those &lt;strong&gt;will&lt;/strong&gt; be the frames.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RJL &#8211; You&#8217;re one of two L-school grads I know of that drop by here, and the other one hasn&#8217;t been around in a while, so thanks especially for your point of view. </p>
<p>You know, there was a time  in the way back when that I thought I might leave the service and dip my toe in the legal waters. I don&#8217;t know that I&#8217;d have been able to take the evident joy in disputation that good lawyers seem to do, nor yet become entertained by this sort of twisted reasoning. But I do, like you, entertain a higher regard for the public&#8217;s common sense than does their herald.</p>
<p>Steve &#8211; Ah! The white knight revealed at last. A whistleblower, or an axe-grinder? Both, a little, probably. </p>
<p>But those <strong>will</strong> be the frames.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2608</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 13:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2608</guid>
		<description>Since the distinction between the two leaks seems to hinge on motive, at least in the NYTs&#039; eyes, I found this interesting:

&lt;i&gt;Russ Tice, a whistleblower &lt;b&gt;who was dismissed from the NSA last year,&lt;/b&gt; stated in letters to the House and Senate intelligence committees that he is prepared to testify about highly classified Special Access Programs, or SAPs, that were improperly carried out by both the NSA and the DIA.&lt;/i&gt;

link &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060104-114052-6606r.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since the distinction between the two leaks seems to hinge on motive, at least in the NYTs&#8217; eyes, I found this interesting:</p>
<p><i>Russ Tice, a whistleblower <b>who was dismissed from the NSA last year,</b> stated in letters to the House and Senate intelligence committees that he is prepared to testify about highly classified Special Access Programs, or SAPs, that were improperly carried out by both the NSA and the DIA.</i></p>
<p>link <a href="http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060104-114052-6606r.htm" rel="nofollow">here</a></p>
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		<title>By: RJL</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2605</link>
		<dc:creator>RJL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 07:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2605</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the other thought is to question whether the argument is being made in good faith.  Sometimes an argument is just an argument.

Among friends (perhaps among individuals generally) extending an assumption of good faith seems the gentlemanly and courteous thing to do; mutual respect assumes sincerity in the exchange of ideas.  But among institutions, organizations, parties...well, the integrity of this wonderful intellectual dialogue almost always defers to other interests.  And if you assume that rather weak arguments like this one are made not in good faith but rather to shield an interest...well, they become much less infuriating. They&#039;re actually kind of entertaining in a peculiar way, like a mouse playing a banjo.  Ha!  &quot;Did not reveal the existence of such surveillance&quot;!  And with those tiny little paws!

I&#039;ve always thought that the most insulting response to an adversary&#039;s argument is not a vile string of epithets, but uncontrollable, unfeigned, utterly nonresponsive laughter.

(Yes, the broader consequences of having this sort of thing pass as informed opinion in the grand public debate are not very funny -- but on this point, I have a certain faith in American common sense.)

/L-school grad, who seriously thinks the last sentence of the article turns on what the meaning of &quot;existence&quot; is</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the other thought is to question whether the argument is being made in good faith.  Sometimes an argument is just an argument.</p>
<p>Among friends (perhaps among individuals generally) extending an assumption of good faith seems the gentlemanly and courteous thing to do; mutual respect assumes sincerity in the exchange of ideas.  But among institutions, organizations, parties&#8230;well, the integrity of this wonderful intellectual dialogue almost always defers to other interests.  And if you assume that rather weak arguments like this one are made not in good faith but rather to shield an interest&#8230;well, they become much less infuriating. They&#8217;re actually kind of entertaining in a peculiar way, like a mouse playing a banjo.  Ha!  &#8220;Did not reveal the existence of such surveillance&#8221;!  And with those tiny little paws!</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve always thought that the most insulting response to an adversary&#8217;s argument is not a vile string of epithets, but uncontrollable, unfeigned, utterly nonresponsive laughter.</p>
<p>(Yes, the broader consequences of having this sort of thing pass as informed opinion in the grand public debate are not very funny &#8212; but on this point, I have a certain faith in American common sense.)</p>
<p>/L-school grad, who seriously thinks the last sentence of the article turns on what the meaning of &#8220;existence&#8221; is</p>
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		<title>By: lex</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2598</link>
		<dc:creator>lex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 03:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2598</guid>
		<description>Well JPS I admire your ability to crawl inside such fevered minds and return with your own sanity intact ;-)

While I can agree with the first part of your first paragraph&#039;s statement unreservedly, a free press being a critical check on an unconstitutional accumulation of power, the second part I wonder about, in a time of war. &lt;em&gt;&quot;Inter arma silent leges,&quot;&lt;/em&gt; is a sentiment I cannot entirely endorse, sworn as I am to support and defend the Constitution, but it is a sentiment whose thrust I understand.

In New York, of all places, you&#039;d think they&#039;d have a finer sense of who the real enemy is. For those of your friends who&#039;d support that interpretation, ask of them for me if it &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; makes consistent sense that the only appropriate leaks which can occur in a time of war are those that damage the Commander-in-Chief, while those that support his efforts are intolerable. I&#039;m not saying that he&#039;s got a free pass, far from it, but if I was to have to choose between cutting slack to those who are sworn to defend me, or those who have sworn to kill me, I think the choice would be pretty easy.

Reese- it&#039;s amazing, isn&#039;t it? The &lt;em&gt;Times&lt;/em&gt; burns a highly classified system on their front page, after having sat on the story &lt;em&gt;for a year!&lt;/em&gt; on account perhaps of the People&#039;s Right To Know, and then throws it back on the Executive to prove why the subject should have been classified to begin with. Seems to me like it&#039;s skipping a step or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well JPS I admire your ability to crawl inside such fevered minds and return with your own sanity intact <img src='http://www.neptunuslex.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>While I can agree with the first part of your first paragraph&#8217;s statement unreservedly, a free press being a critical check on an unconstitutional accumulation of power, the second part I wonder about, in a time of war. <em>&#8220;Inter arma silent leges,&#8221;</em> is a sentiment I cannot entirely endorse, sworn as I am to support and defend the Constitution, but it is a sentiment whose thrust I understand.</p>
<p>In New York, of all places, you&#8217;d think they&#8217;d have a finer sense of who the real enemy is. For those of your friends who&#8217;d support that interpretation, ask of them for me if it <em>really</em> makes consistent sense that the only appropriate leaks which can occur in a time of war are those that damage the Commander-in-Chief, while those that support his efforts are intolerable. I&#8217;m not saying that he&#8217;s got a free pass, far from it, but if I was to have to choose between cutting slack to those who are sworn to defend me, or those who have sworn to kill me, I think the choice would be pretty easy.</p>
<p>Reese- it&#8217;s amazing, isn&#8217;t it? The <em>Times</em> burns a highly classified system on their front page, after having sat on the story <em>for a year!</em> on account perhaps of the People&#8217;s Right To Know, and then throws it back on the Executive to prove why the subject should have been classified to begin with. Seems to me like it&#8217;s skipping a step or two.</p>
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		<title>By: Reese</title>
		<link>http://www.neptunuslex.com/2006/01/04/the-times-engages-in-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-2597</link>
		<dc:creator>Reese</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 02:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.neptunuslex.com/?p=392#comment-2597</guid>
		<description>You called the second bolded portion &quot;impenetrable&quot; for good reason.  Perhaps you picked and chose, I thought, for effect.  So I read the whole thing.  The second part highlighted by you is still impenetrable.  

After reading the op-ed I have the same reaction I did when I heard about the NSA program from the NYT:  &quot;Gosh, whose side are  the editorial boardmembers of that &#039;newspaper&#039; on?&quot;  

If their reply would be, &quot;There&#039;s more than two sides,&quot; then they&#039;re really being suckered into the &quot;enemy of my enemy&quot; thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You called the second bolded portion &#8220;impenetrable&#8221; for good reason.  Perhaps you picked and chose, I thought, for effect.  So I read the whole thing.  The second part highlighted by you is still impenetrable.  </p>
<p>After reading the op-ed I have the same reaction I did when I heard about the NSA program from the NYT:  &#8220;Gosh, whose side are  the editorial boardmembers of that &#8216;newspaper&#8217; on?&#8221;  </p>
<p>If their reply would be, &#8220;There&#8217;s more than two sides,&#8221; then they&#8217;re really being suckered into the &#8220;enemy of my enemy&#8221; thing.</p>
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