Courtesy of the Salamander, DoD finally figures it out:
After two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense is getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as “official alternatives” to the M9 Beretta. But now SOCOM has been given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs are being evaluated, but all must be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 will also have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length must be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.
You hit something with a pistol? It’s close. You want it to stay hit.
I know which one I’d want, if it was up to me.
Boo-yah, baby.
When i worked in law enforcement, our duty weapon was the Glock 21 .45cal, which was too big for me, the man with the small hands. So I ended up with the 9mm version.
But H&K makes sweet weapons. There’s very little like heaven quite like firing the MP5 or MP10… ahhh
B
Can a .45 cal weapon have an effective silencer ? I thought if a weapon had an (above) sonic round it could not be silenced (with good results) I am by no means a weapons (expert) just wonderin….
expert = gets paid
professional = knows what he’s doin
There is a silencer paired with the SOCCOM version that the SEALs (and maybe others) use. Which would lead me to believe that either 1) Silencers are effective for supersonic rounds or 2) the .45 ACP round is subsonic.
But I’m way out of my depth on that kind of issue. Ask me about 20mm cannons and I start to breathe easier
The .45 ACP is subsonic (just barely). In spite of this, you will still hear the action of an automatic weapon. I suppose “CLACK, CLACK!” is better than “BANG!” I qualified on the .45 when I was first in the Navy. Latter on, we all had the chance to fire the 9MM, which was much easier on the the shooter, and it appears now, the shootee as well.
Lotsa people from the early 80s who said the idea of going to the 9mm in the first place was a bad one can now say…I TOLD YAH SO!!!
I always did prefer the .45. The 9MM was a bad idea and anyone who used one in combat knew that it was picked because NATO wanted it. The Army commissioned Colt during the Indian wars to provide them with a round that would stop a human being in his tracks. You see the Army standard issue was a .40 russian which when you hit the target well the target would keep coming, the Army lost many soldiers when they shot and hit the target only he would keep coming and drive a spear through the soldier and so the .45 Colt was born. The Government model 1911 that we had when I joined in 89 was a great weapon and all you have to do is have Colt modify them with Picatinny rails. All my home defense handguns are .45, I use 9MM for target practice.
The 830 Feet per second (FPS) of a 230 grain ball round (45ACP) is well under the 1130 FPS that sound travels at while the 9MM 125 grain bullet at 1200 FPS is slightly supersonic. A silenced 45 will be quieter than the same silencer on the 9. Their energy levels are comparable and with a good (not Hague convention compliant) bullet they have similar performance.
But, we live (and die) by conventions so make my service pistol a 45 (1911 A1 MilSpec by Springfield Armory)
I also have a browining HP in 9mm for those not Hague Convention days
Semper Gumby – Always Flexible
Once those little hand folks start shooting a large frame auto in .45, then you’ll get reverse complaints (and lousy scores).
I say tailor the sidearm to the hand size & ability to handle. I’ll bet some of those heroic Marine streetfighters in Fallujah wish they had a big frame .10 mm or .357 mag.
Nah that won’t work. One size fits all mentality and procurement restraints won’t allow it.
B2
The JCP (Joint Combat Pistol) program has been going on for some time — when strategypage.com gets it — it’s usually “old news”. It’s been progressing in earnest since the middle of last year, although I think the solicitation was originally put out in January of 2005. I also believe most of the test and eval is being done or will be done at NSWC Crane, Indiana.
To hammer or not to hammer?? That has always been a requirement with USGI firearms by the BuOrdnance types — but I suppose it could go by the wayside this time.
The solicitation (#H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 — Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System) doesn’t mention anything about “requiring” a hammer, but it does talk about “lowering the hammer from a cocked position”. It also indicates an allowance for two orders — one with and one without an external safety. I’m guessing that some H&K and SIG models might have the inside track as presently designed.
http://fs2.fbo.gov/EPSData/ODA/Synopses/27191/H92222-05-R-0017/Attch01JCPspec080905.doc
I personally think it might come down to something like a SIG P220 or H&K P2000/3000 in .45 ACP as frontrunners … or maybe just give up and go with a USP .45ACP ??? As much as I’d like it personally, I don’t think UNCLE will ever again go with a 1911-style pistol; although MODERN 1911′s can compete with any Euro-pistol in reliability and function. They just take more time-to-train on for the average trigger-puller ….. ALTHOUGH …. there were rumors of an H&K 1911-style being designed for the Navy SPECWAR community last year …… ?
Both SIG and H&K have experience with US government contracts and I am sure they will do whatever necessary to keep the greenbacks flowing into the coporate office. I think politics will determine where this pistol is made — and SIG, H&K, and Beretta all have US plants. Glock remains offshore at present as far as production is concerned and as long as that is the case — say goodby to US government GLOCK contracts. I have heard that GLOCK is beginning construction on a US located plant, however ….
Politics. Votes. Money. Politics. Votes. Money ……… The beat goes on ….
It’s a tough sell for me. I learned to shoot with a Beratta 92F before joining the Navy and then qualed on the .45. The 9 just seems to be far more accurate to me(much tighter shot groups). A lot of us could go rounds on this one, Knock down power v/s accuracy, so I won’t try to make my case. That’s why I settled for the happy medium and got a HK40 with two high capacity mags.
First off when looking at the entire package in firearms and the military, you are not going to convince anyone that has ever done a bit of “trigger pulling” that the HK USP is anything easy to master. The gun is not reliable, it was a bad choice for salt water / amphib operations, as was the M9 and the 1911 is also not a good weapon for the open water, salt or fresh for that matter. The majority of all handguns on the market except for the Glock 21 in 45 cal. have the need for too much oiling and maintenance. The Glock is in service within the military and other agencies currently. They have maintained that the Glock 21 with its 40,000 round warranty topples the other guys. Also when speaking about maintenance the majority of all pistols on the market are working with many more parts than the G21. Less parts less breakage, and alot less to manufacture; therefore the cost is much less. It amazes me that we instead of looking to all of the testing that has been done on handguns, attempt to try it again. Results are results; ask the FBI and all the many other agencies and military units why they carry Glock’s. Bottom line reliability. I would like for someone to tell me which handgun manufacturer has produced the results that Glock has done. The torture tests of the Glock are world renown, funny how S&W has along with many others chosen to work synthetics.
I have a HK USP and fire 1300fps 185grain JHP’s and ive been using it for years 10,000s of rounds through it, better for shooting, higher accuracy, just as reliable and more fun overall than the G21.
I dont denie the G21′s is a great gun and i use it too. But if your looking for the best combat pistol the USP is miles further ahead than the G21
If I had the scratch right now it would definately be the H&K .45 USP. That gun just fits.
Sig P220 “Combat” version blows them all out of the water it’s acurasy is unparaleled. It features a hard chromed barrel with inner parts resistent to salt water and corrision and has a threaded barrel, what more can you ask for
I have shot and researched both Glocks and HK’s. Glock is a fine gun but let’s just say I own the HK’s. Heckler and Koch makes a far superior weapon. Sounds like Reccee needs to do some actual research before making such ridiculous claims. FYI: the HK USP is rated at over 60,000+ rounds and can sit in salt water for weeks and still run like new.
The Sig P220 Combat blows the 10-ton mark-23 away in reliability. It can do the same saltwater trick as the HK but try 200,000 rounds w/o malfunction and its almost indestructible. Ever shot a mark 23? Nothing special, no more accurate than a reg ‘ol P220 out of box, heavy as hell, big, especially for $2,000+; I really respect .45s but a .40 in a 5″+ barrel would be like the real man-stopper for SOCOM. It would probably be too hard to suppress a .40 like thats super-duper sonic rounds…
Speed of sound is 1087 FPS