|
|||||
Ohhh. Good.Place this in the category of: “Probably too good to be true, but worth sharing nevertheless”
The correspondent who sent it my way said that it represents what it appears to: A HUD camera freeze from of an FA-18 of some flavor in a “position of advantage” over a USAF F-22 Raptor. Little things. Like gunning an Air Force guy in his high tech gear. They just mean so much. You have to understand this about fighter combat: Killing someone with a missile? Just business. Killing him with a gun? Now that’s personal. How can that be, you ask? Dead is dead, right? Wrong. If you get shot with a missile, you got beat. You get gunned, you’ve been owned. A missile has a guidance loop, a processor, a logic board – it can be defeated. A 20mm round is brutally insensate, a mere bludgeon, with high explosive incendiary effects to go along with its kinetics. You cannot argue with it, you cannot decoy it, you cannot, once fairly beaten down, get out of its way. Which somehow puts me in mind of as story from when I was stationed over in Japan. The USAF had a F-15 Eagle squadron in Kadena working “with” another USAF F-16 squadron in Korea. Now, much as there existed a good-natured rivalry between the FA-18 community in the US Navy, and their F-14 counterparts, so also did a rivalry exist between F-15 pilots and F-16 jocks. Except you could probably leave out the “good natured” part. Because in the Navy, anyway, after a moment or two’s reflection, one brand of pilot would actually cross the street to piss on the other, if in fact he was on fire. Because of the service. Less so in the USAF, was my strong impression. It all came from the hauteur with which the Eagle drivers, accustomed to raining long-range death from way high above viewed the mud-moving Viper pilots, no use at all in a stand-up fight, but given to pretensions. The F-16 guys on the other hand, were all too accustomed to seeing beat-down F-15s in the HUD cameras with the gun pipper on them to give much more than the back of their hand to the self-regard demonstrated by “Ego” pilots. They went at each other hammer and tongs. And that was just in the O’Club. But anyway, the aforementioned Korea-based F-16 squadron maintained what we in the Navy refer to as a “Hit Log.” It’s basically a notebook used to record any illustration of buffoonery or mischance committed by any of the squadron’s pilots – a way of recording their misfortune for posterity. So that later generations could laugh at them too. The JO’s of that particular squadron were wonderfully descriptive – one could almost say inventive – and loved nothing more, when not gunning Eagles, than roasting their own comrades in tiny, crabbed pen. And the Japan-based F-15 squadron, out of Kadena, happened to have one of the USAF’s first female fighter pilots – a real novelty at the time, and a source, for reasons I will not go into here, for much added fuel to the intermural fire between the two fighter communities. Briefly: You should know that in a missile duel between Eagles and Vipers – at least in the old days, before AMRAAMs, when it was Sparrows and Sidewinders only (and only the F-15 carried the longer range Sparrow) – there was no contest: The Eagle is a wonderfully designed air superiority fighter, capable of going high and fast and carrying a lot of heat. But if an F-16 were to survive somehow to the merge with an Eagle, and if, at that merge the Eagle guys didn’t bug the hell out as fast as they could go, well: Foxes in the henhouse. For a hard turning, “I see you, you see me” fight, a stripped-down F-16 is hard to beat. For an Air Force guy, anyway. Which I know was all a long walk to this small house: In the debrief of a “many vs. many” F-15/F-16 engagement, one of the Viper jocks somehow managed to find himself in a position of disadvantage with respect to an Eagle flown by the previously mentioned female fighter pilot. In short, he got gunned. By a girl. There was HUD tape to provide the graphic evidence which proved to all those ears that had, in the midst of the fray, been unable to process her dulcet tones calling the hapless Viper jock dead, and out of the fight. Run along now. Cos’ you don’t have to go home, but you can’t. Stay. Here. Well, unfortunately there were several other things to debrief in the mission, while all of the Viper jocks but one squirmed in their seats like schoolboys held late on Friday afternoon. And the one who wasn’t squirming looked like he was pondering the best way to die, if he couldn’t manage to become invisible. Finally the debrief ended and there was a mad rush to the exit, with two or three getting stuck in the door, each trying to be the first one to memorialize this never-before envisioned feat in their hit log: One of their own, an F-16 jock, gunned by a chick (their words). In an Eagle. Ohhh. Good. 48 comments to Ohhh. Good. |
  |
||||
|
Copyright © 2009 Neptunus Lex - All Rights Reserved |
|||||
Lex – loved your line about crossing the street for the good of the service – first rate.
Spent some time working with the AWACs sqdn out of Kadena – where I learned just how much more arrogant the Eagle drivers were even than the Turkey jocks we dealt with in CAG 5. Briefing with them was a one way conversation – on which you were the receiver. The fact that we were in possession of the real-time radar picture of thousands of square miles of air space didn’t mean diddly to those guys. Thier disdain caome over the radio so clearly it almost dripped. What a bunch of blow-hards.
I don’t know about you, but I was also pretty wierded out by the USAF officer-enlisted relationship. All of the AWACs crews seemed to be on first-name basis between the enlisted techs and the various systems operators on the plane. Only the two pilots were the exception. They lorded above all (I know, I know – as it should be…but come on – on an AWACs?).
Also did some cross-decking with the Japanese E2 sqdn up in Misawa (that was a real trip). Went flying with one of their pilots who had several thousand hours in Eagles, but liked the E2s better – less stressfull. Being just 20/200 away from a pilot slot and a wannabe from the time I first started reading about airplanes I just could not process that preference at all.
Brian
And the Army ADA guys at the Patriot battery just shake their heads… heh.
No way Jose. I mean Lex.
That st Eagle driver should of got the handle “Mantis” in honor of the Praying Mantis’s mating habits!
B2
I didn’t think AF drivers got call signs, just scarves…
Scarves and wings made of lead!!!
Not scarves.
They wear dickies!
Appropriate name, don’t you think?
Jonboy,
At least the AF boys *have* dickies….and, from what I can tell, they know how to use them too.
*wink*
Thank you, Were-Kitten. As a retired AF guy, it’s sometimes very hard for me to take all the Squid-posturing stuff here, yet I keep coming back. Quality writing, and all that!
Lex: I’d second that ?
Lex sez:
“Finally the debrief ended and there was a mad rush to the exit, with two or three getting stuck in the door, each trying to be the first one to memorialize this never-before envisioned feat in their hit log: One of their own, an F-16 jock, gunned by a chick (their words). In an Eagle.”
BWAHAHAHAHA! What else can one say!:D
Well, could remark on the Air Force bashing, but instead I’ll comment on the F-22’s shortcomings (just as regards the HUD pic), notice the Alpha and Airspeed in the Hornet HUD……..seems like the Raptor was fighting the Hornet’s fight….a sure way to lose.
Hmmm,
The vunder veapon failed, was beaten by a better trained and better skilled opponent. This adage has been prove time and time again. Guess the Red Flag training isn’t filtering down to the new junior birdmen.
As to the F-15 v F-16 fight. Reminds me of a story of way back when the F-14 first showed up on the East coast and the F-15 guys out of Langely wanted to play and see how the USN’s new bird could do. Terms were first to get a radar or HUD tape of a kill were the winners and the loser had to buy a round for the squadron at the opfor’s O-club. So the agreed on the meet area which was the op area off of the Virginia coast. The way the story went the F-15 guys didn’t even have a chance to get into the fight before the F-14 guys with the AWG-9 had them in TWS and were raining “Fox 3″ and then “Fox 2″ calls as range decreased on to the F-15 outfit. They didn’t have a chance. From then on, the bets of USAF v USN with F-14’s and F-15’s became first with a HUD tape with either a Sidewinder or a gun shot.
Mach .37 in a dive? I’m calling shenanigans on this one Lex.
Re. Charles’ comments — we had a saying in CAG-7 re. Tomcats vs Eagles (circa 1979):
“The two biggest lies in the world — ‘the check’s in the mail’ and ‘Fox-2 on the F-15…’ ” Well, there *was* a third, but we’re keeping it PG here folks
C’mon, John! He may be in a dive, but he’s got 18 degrees AOA on a jet doing 183 knots calibrated. That’s roughly three miles a minute, which corresponds pretty nicely to 0.37IMN.
You gotta have faith!
Who’s got time for Red Flag any more? Just like the Navy they are either on deployment, getting ready for deployment, or giving up folks to be truck drivers and other nonsense in Iraq…………….
Sexist it may be, but my heart is with the F-16 guys in the story…….
And as Brian points out, USAF guys don’t know the meaning of the word fraternization. Which is why they have no problems with “Airman relations” HA!
I’m not retired AF, having never served, but I am an AF Brat- and my brother is currently enlisted. I chalk it up to jealousy.
Gotcher back, Buck!
Did I ever share the story about the time a certain cohort of USN strike fighter pilots enjoyed the hospitality of the USAF at the O’Club at Clark AFB, Angeles City, PI?
Wanting to fit in, and make the correct impression, but not having those colorful ascots or scarves or whatever it is you call them, our heroes improvised their under-garment neckwear.
Jock straps (Bike!) were substituted instead. Alas, their hosts were unimpressed by this attempt at sartorial solidarity.
Philistines…
Lex, I believe I saw those Bikes nailed to a cruise plaque in the Cubi O’club.
As for the question over who has the right to be the most arrogant…
at the end of the day after the bombs are dropped and the ammo’s gone, the AF aviator goes home to 10K feet (ok, maybe 8K in some cases) of well-lit runway while the USN aviator goes home to the toughest part of the job…
“the USN aviator goes home to the toughest part of the job….”
huh.
I didn’t realize they allowed Navy wives aboard those ships, Brian.
I’ll get a target angle 6 shot of an F-22 this weekend. At Sun n’ Fun will be the first public display of the F-22.
I know it’s not as much fun at 0 knots and in dead level flight attitude, but it’s the best I can do on retired pay.
Great story and nice to know you’d cross the street for a Tomcat dude. Same for Scooter drivers?
Charles;
“From then on, the bets of USAF v USN with F-14?
W-K – a clever rejoinder, as usual.
In this case I will just note that most carrier aviators have a history that includes nights of
* blue water ops
* no moon
* 2 bolters already and low on gas
* started to consider the barricade or an unscheduled swim
When you feel the tug of the wire (*any* wire at that point) after a night like that you seriously reconsider continuing in your present line of work. Then you do it again the next night. Call it earned arrogance, no scarf necessary.
This testosterone fueled fly boy cat fight is sure a pleasure for this old dog to behold.. GET OVER YOURSELVES!! you pampered princes of the sky. We boots on the ground guys are the ones that win wars.. of course your support is certaintly appreciated and you do have nice “O” clubs. Best
***wiping the glass of cold water off my face***
Did get a bit carried away didn’t I?
Sorry about that, all.
Sorry Lex.
B
You’re all wet Brian but don’t forget:
You can buy a lotta snake meat w/flight pay! LOL
B2
Lex, I can’t read a HUD. Would you pls explain the 900 on the display? Would you pls consider explaining what these two aircraft were doing at the time and how you think they got to be there? One of the reasons I ask is that everything I’ve read about the Raptor seems to indicate they don’t have Nuggets flying ‘em. Have never seen a picture that wasn’t Major or above. Thanks.
If I understand my Hornet HUD symbology correctly, the 900 signifies the range to target. There are actually more of these photos out there (can’t seem to find them at the moment), it’s part of a series. You can see that the Hornet pilot keeps the Raptor in the gunsight over a period of a few pictures.
*hands Brian a towel*
LOL…. it’s all in fun, Brian… at least, until someone gets an eye poked out.
Bill, Skull Leader is correct – the radar range to target is indicated at 900′ (which is actually in violation of the training rules, which require that gun attacks be broken off at 1000′). Probably this is the last frame in the series, just at the Hornet guy goes to lag – best shot of the Raptor.
As for how they got there, I’ve got literally no idea – this pic dropped into my email box with little in the way of explanation. Could have been a defensive perch drill for the F-22, or it could have been high aspect. One thing I do know is that seniority is only loosely corellated with air combat skill. You can gain a lot of experience doing things the wrong way, if you’re not careful.
I thoroughly enjoyed this post and comments (even though, Im not necessarily down with the tango on the lingo). Ive got send Desult this post.
Love the picture and the posts…
Came across an interesting comment on a forum I frequent…the post made the case for the supposed Raptor actually being a bird of a different feather; an Eagle, to be precise. Being fully aware that the Raptor looks like nothing so much as an Eagle optimized for stealth, and taking into full account the low resolution of the HUD camera, I must say he has a point. The intakes appear to be a bit too boxy, and the trailing edge of the wing doesn’t appear to have the requisite angle of sweep to be a Raptor.
I can’t conclusively say one way or the other, but it is an interesting point.
Sent this one around the base on Friday Lex, asking rather facetiously if anyone could help me ID the aircraft underneath all that Hornet HUD symbology. Frenzied emails followed throughout the day. Much fun was had by me, as it wasn’t difficult to stay Offensive. Thanks for sharing bro.
Mike,
I read the same thing and blew it up. Then I looked at line drawings planview of F-15 vs F-22.
F-22 is distinct (diamond shape) but if you “scrunch up” an F-15 with tools you could make it appear to be a Raptor, especially with such crappy resolution.
Anyways I won’t believe it until it is documented to my satisfaction. No agenda here.
B2
Sir,
I did two year tour in Misawa, Japan in the late 80s w/the Naval Security Group..two USAF F16 squadrons there. Our Naval Aviators would fly up from the Midway to play games with the wingnuts. The Air Force pilots always had the nice silk scarves with their flight suits, with squadron designs, etc. One of the funniest things I saw in 10 years active duty was seeing the Naval Aviators walking into the O club…with toilet paper wrapped around their necks and tucked down into their flight suits. PRICELESS.
Me being a active member in the usaf for over 18 years now well close to 18 coming this sept
it hardly ever matters who and what technology you have its all about the luck skill and awsomeness of a pilot behind the stick but i have heard storys of the f 22 its not made for dog fighting but it can if need be really made for a stick and hit kinda thing then dissapear but i flown the f18sh in gulf war 1 and gulf war 2 but from my point of veiw that looks like a conjunction train of some sort either they were practiceing maneuvers are certain situations during an engagement who ever got these shots needs to upload a video we need it badly
[...] Bummer, I guess. But probably less embarrassing than the poor guy who got to star in this movie. [...]
why is everyone saying the raptors are useless after the shoot if its true it wouldnt be entirely the raptors fault although the raptor has advavaced fetures it still new compiared to the hornet and the pilots of the hornets no matter the skill are able to now more of the hornets capabilies and able to push it more and the pilots in the raptor even how expaireced they havnt fully tested the capabilities of the raptor and maybe thats what there doing in the pic and everything has a factor of advantage or disadvatage or other even with different percentages going as low as the lowest decimal point number possible
As a retired Marine with 15 years in the F/A-18 community, no one trains harder than a Marine F/A-18 Pilot or a Navy Pilot at the F/A-18 RAG.
Deploying to Air Force Bases for DACM our kill rate against F-5’s, 15’s and 16’s was disproportionate. Our Commanding Officer would have to tell our Marine Fighter Pilots to pull back or else we would not be invited back again.
Da Gunz
The United States Air Force, is the Civil Service with uniforms.
Da Gunz
Well, as you know, in the RAF, and RN, they WORK together__!
Probably why they are more gutsy pilots than the soft US pilots, who are nothing but pc screen mouse movers, with them thermal imagers for their j-dams! The infantry is doing the lazer aiming in any tight spot, and if not, well we saw what happened when a Usnavy ‘bombcat’ pilot was told of four Iraqi t-55s moving to engage the circa fifteen vehicle collumn of US 173rd airbourne, Kurdish Peswamerga, and two cars (all but US were in Toyota landrover style white cars) were bbc camera-reporter crew, the Hummers went off the road, and started to guide a bombcat to the crossroads about a mile ahead with the Iraqi tanks on it, the US-Kurd collumn itself was at another crossroad, but as I said, it was four tanks, vs fifteen white toyota’s, and a couple of hummers, and the toyotas were in straight collumn, not manouvering, well, the bombcat pilot in his infinate wisdom dropped a thousand pound j-dam straight on the Kurds! The BBC crew filmed it all, and it was a mess! loads of Kurd dead, and wounded, and the translator of the bbc crew was shown dying slowly of blast effect, the bbc had only got kevlars for the crew that left england, and hadnt provisioned for the translator that they took ad hoc, he got blast effect internal mush for guts…
The US Navy, did give an interview of the ‘actually a fighter squadron, of them tom cruise guys’, called the ’swords’, with (get this), actually having the cohones to have bomb mission marks on their planes! The laughable JDam symbols painted on their F-14s, were like, I’m so proud I stepped on an ant today, oh, but I missed and killed our allies…
Yeah, and a couple of days before some A-10s had killed about ten US marines, and another pair of a-10s, whacked a Royal Marine, and wounded others, I mean, I can get the Navy fighter pilots put onto ground support, and I have read about the diffrence of getting a Marine F-18 to give ground support back in Afganistan, compared to a USN F-14 dropping it’s bombs where ever, that I read from the book about Green berets and Delta and SAS in Afganistan, the Navy pilots were furious, but the special forces said there was no competition, the f-18s, came in low, and made several passes until even all their gun ammo was used up, while the Navy guys would drop something from three miles and hope it hit something useful… The Green Berets really hated getting Navy support, but the RAF harriers did their job tip top too apparently…
Yep, I cant figure a-10s being so inept though…?
I was certain you had a point – perhaps two! – somewhere in there, even if it had nothing whatsoever to do with the post at hand. Sadly, it seemed to get all tied up in the kind of faux smug superciliousness which the envious use in an attempt to hide their self-perceived inadequacies. Or do you think that you, uniquely, have discovered that accidents occur in wartime, and that friendlies are sometimes hurt?
As for your preference for air support, it would seem that not all of your countrymen agree:
There’s a great deal there besides, if you want to take your anti-American blinders off.
That is to say, if you still can.
All this fighter stuff is doctored anyway… I mean they all do their kills with slammers from 20km…
The only cohones, is going low and giving correct ground support in a triple a enviroment, and the apaches, bailed out in Iraq, after loosing one of thirty!
And they are combat helicopters! I mean, if they dont do the job, who will???
Looks like the infantry is the only service where the meet still meets the metal, or is expected to, the other services, are basically playing video games… Only that the civilians dying collateral deaths, think the game stinks, but Josh from Carolina, is all agog about that little screen he saw go all grey from an explosion three miles down…
Sorry, but I do have to say, that the Yugoslav army, in deseiving the nato strikes, so that they only lost about ten tanks instead of two hundred, or something similar, and downing a stealth F-117, that was cool…. Even if the arkan madmen were under the umbrella of the serb army, the regurlars, were damn tight, why do you think the nato ground forces never went in???
Also, the Hizbollah seem to have developed some tight fighting qualities, as the Israelis, got a bloody nose that was coming a long time, after engaging stone throwing kids with merkava’s…
Yep, and the US and Brit and Canadian armies are seeing that the Afganis and Iraqis are learning… Just like with the USSR, they dominated in the beginning with their Hinds, but slowly, slowly the Muhajadeen learned… Same thing going on… Anyway, with the congress cutting about fifty orders per year, I wonder how many F-22s will be put into active service anyway? Will it beat the osprey???
I’m playing the devils advocate, but the media is so full of S**t, that I think it’s time somebody, starts to raise eyebrows, eh?
Well, like mr Crisco above said it, My point was that the Navy pilot’s are giving ground support, when they have been ‘top gunning’ for too long!
And who said I’m british???
Get YOUR ‘america universalis’ glasses of if you can…
Oh, and lex, the point being, that US makes more friendly fire per missions than any other nato nation since desert storm!
sorry… Not my invention… Some supersilous nato guy’s did it because they want to cut down friendly fire, as it doesnt make selling ’smart’ bombs easy… But I guess the Isrealis already realized that, the ‘empire has striken back’, as you know everything goes in cycles, and the insurgents have got wize to the new weapons again…
like the Brits used helicopters ect in Malaysia and won, it took ten years or something close, and special forces, but they got the job done, only that when the US tried the same in Vietnam, very much based on the British tactics, the Vietnamese had studied the Brit tactics too, and developed the ‘belt buckle technique’… And getting into sanctuary across the border, yes?
Well, similarly , the insurgents, after desert storm, looked at Mogadishu, so ‘fight in urban areas’, was the first lesson, Saddam, and even the Taleban, knew this, after all, both the baathists and taleban are out there still causing Coalition casualties, and as was pointed out The previously feared Israeli’s were put to putting the thinking cap back on, after the Hizbollah got Syrian made copies of the rpg-14s…
The ’swing’ hase gon to the insurgents now…
And the air to air guys are being put to do ground support, and it’s costing friendly fire casualties…
that was my point, just thought that a graphic description would have put some human touch to the fact… Maybe your subconcious was too hurt reading it so that you reacted by taking it to a personal, and misguided national level instead of sticking to the issues, and who said you have a monopoly on what is being written here, I thought it’s about Jet fighters, their pilots and their behaviour ect…? Maybe I was wrong…
Cleaton – Such romantic notions of air warfare. I wonder how many many-v-many air combat engagements have you personally participated in, training or otherwise? It’s nothing like so clear as it seems in the simulator, no one ever has perfect SA, not every missile works they way it is supposed and the likelihood is always that someone will get through the first salvos not to mention the SAMs coming up in the middle of it all. If there’s anything that we learned in Vietnam it’s that you can’t merely trust to technology to do all of your work for you – you’ve got to be able to fly the machine better than the other guys do.
It does take cohones to go low, but only if you must to get the mission done – like this guy did, providing an object lesson in the dangers involved. It’s not brave but foolish to unneccessarily hazard your craft to AK-47 fire from an illiterate peasant lying on his back in a ditch, and getting shot down by one of them does not improve the lot of the poor infantry on the ground. To lift a line or two from Kipling:
17pounder, I’ll take the reference cite on the “friendly fire” fact document if you please. I hadn’t read that, even if the whole “NATO friendly fire incidents since Desert Storm” wasn’t a rather restricted data pool to choose from. Who came up with that one?
And forgive me if I misread your nationality, but there was a certain didacticism in your tone of wounded superiority that suggested a rare class of gent from POME that I have occasionally entertained.
As far as “top gunning” for too long to provide adequate ground support, I fear your data is a little aged. I taught at TOPGUN actually, taught strike training there in fact as well as air-to-air. The syllabus changed a great deal after the ‘91 scrape, had to if the school was to remain relevant.
Oh, and by the way – if you’ve come looking for someone to defend the F-14 you’ve come looking in the wrong hole. As a career FA-18 pilot, I was never a fan.
As for “who am I” to monopolize what is written here, well: No one, I suppose, apart from being the siteowner. The guy who pays the bandwidth, corrects his commenter’s spelling when it suits him, etc.
But really, I did think you were rather stretching the point of the post beyond what is normally called “on topic” in these fora.
I agree with some of the above. The F-18 is the most modern plane of the ‘four main f’s serving’ now. Not some half prototype plane we dont know well enough… The F-18 has the most advanced avionics to start with. Or had, the Block fifty+ F-16s looked prettty angry and ready to do no good, when the Greeks wanted some new tech, but I still recon a good Wild Weasel F-18c is a bad mother!
And, ‘ol’ Maveric can go and fly his f-14 right to the museum if you ask me! (;