Hell, I don’t know what happened there. Neither do you. Nor does “former Marine” John Murtha – and I use the expression “former” advisedly, with a very specific meaning in mind.
What we do know is that the city was considered hostile in every sense of the word by Marines sent to patrol its streets. We do know that sometime in November of last year, one Marine died in an IED explosion, and that a number of local nationals died in the aftermath. We do know that allegations have been made which – if proven to be true – amount to war crimes.
And there’s the pinch – we have allegations of fact from two different sides. There is an ongoing investigation. That investigation may result in charges being filed against Marines on the scene, perhaps even on Marines in the rear. And once those charges are made?
The burden will be on the government to prove their case. The defendants will have access to the same information, the right to challenge witnesses, to rebut testimony. That will be the trial of fact, if in fact a trial is called for.
Not this that we see every day in the papers. I’m not excusing war crimes in general, not by any means. John Donovan posts an excellent letter from the Commandant that discusses just how important hewing to the laws of armed conflict are for our servicemen, even – maybe even especially – when the enemy acknowledges no restraints on their beastiality. I’m just saying that the place to try serious allegations of fact are in courtrooms – after charges are filed.
You don’t lose the presumption of innocence just because you take the oath, and the critical work that Marines, soldiers and others are doing in Iraq will not be any less necessary, or even noble, just because some very few among them were found to have acted wrongly – if in fact that is what is found.
This rush to judgement in the press, it is – unseemly. Hollywood must be slavering.
“This rush to judgement in the press, it is – unseemly.”
Yes, and not unexpected. There haven’t been any juicy scandals out of the GWOT in a long time; the MSM is starving to get on that soapbox of self-righteous indignation again, they’ve been in withdrawal.
They’ll never talk about all the GOOD that is done every day in Iraq and Afghanistan. The old saying in the media is “if it bleeds, it leads”. Well, this one is hemmoraghing as far as the MSM is concerned.
If there were war crimes committed, these men will be tried in accordance to the laws governing their behaviour. As it should be, and not before.
Since many of us here are either military or retired military just a couple thoughts. I served over 20 years to do several things, among them were to preserve, protect and defend the constitution from enemies foriegn and domestic. Once all the JAGMAN investigations and article 32′s are complete should there be Probable Cause for trail the accused should be tried by a court of their peers. I feel these charges are too severe for any “plea bargains”. IF the Marines go to trail and IF they are found guilty of crimes, their punishment should be swift and sever, upto and including capital punishment if found guilty of willful murder.
However it seems to me that those who have determined the Marines are already guilty before the investigations are complete muchless a trial, need a little defending against.
One of these days I’d love to see Gen. Pace, perhaps the day he retires, tell Mr. Murtha that he’s “no longer lean, too mean, and as of now an “ex-Marine.”
Well said. There is not a cover up here that a thorough investigation won’t uncover.
Of course WE don’t want this to be true, but can you believe those that fervently hope this allegation is true? What a screwed up way to go through life…
Folks trying to make political hay out of these allegations are “lower than whaleshit” in my estimation but then again, that’s just my opinion.
B2
They’ve got drone footage, comm recordings, comm orders from higher ups, and now forensics etc. There was a firefight of pretty damn good proportions with Cobras, fast movers, and armor. Some artillery used as well. They’ve got all the outside comm, strike coordinates, the whole ball of wax. Haditha is owned and controlled by the muj. Including total control of the end of town the friendlies were killed in. 1500 combat reserves have just been moved into the AO.
Worth waiting on the results of the investigation? Damn straight! But then I know the stories of Fallujah, Mahmudiyah, Zaidon, Al Qaim, Mosul, et al so I guess I’m biased when I see who is making what charges. VERY biased! Murtha can kiss my lilly white grits!!! Who’s flippin’ side is he on anyway?
I go with 2dLT Pantano on this one!
It is hard to tell at this point how this Haditha mess will break, but I earnestly hope that influential members, or future influential members of the military will somehow fit in to their thinking and future actions the idea that a nation whose military has a draft will be much less influenced by these sort of revelations. If the Haditha story breaks the way it should, most Americans will take it in their stride. If it breaks the other way, the volunteer military will become more and more isolated and detached. It is not unreasonable to assume that at a future date, as in ancient Rome, the military will get fed up with the civilian nonsense and interference with reality and just take over (there! I typed it!). Just a few days on the Craigslist political forum convinces me that that sort of young American is totally clueless about the military, its morals, wisdom and values, and loaded with negative impressions that you would not believe. The current advocates of a draft are a sorry bunch, but I’m sure, if more citizens walked even a few steps in military shoes, there would be more understanding of it challenges, capabilities and virtues. In my day, foreign aid of a military nature required that the receiving nation had some sort of universal conscription. There was an extememly good reason for this.
[...] I stand by my earlier statement on the alleged war crimes at Haditha: Don’t know. Can’t. Won’t until a court martial, if in fact one is convened, sifts the evidence, weighs the testimony, looks the accused in the eyes. Our system works. [...]