With itself, in comments following this post.
Sigh.
‘Twas ever thus.
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Your Navy at warBy lex, on June 20th, 2006
June 20th, 2006 | Tags: sea stories | Category: Uncategorized
29 comments to Your Navy at war |
Targets of Opportunityblog advertising is good for you Credo"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones "Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra" "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche "A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier "Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas "Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex Amazon AssociateFor the Effort!Winnar! Subscribe CategoriesPagesTagsacademy
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Point well taken.
Now for the lame seque (I’ve been lurking in wait for this opportunity.) To wit:
Speaking of aircraft carriers… Are you inclined to share any musings on Sen. Warner’s apparently successful bid to name CVN-78.
CAPT Lex-
As one of the pugilists, I do have to say, it is (mostly) in fun. As Mr. Donovan pointed out here, “we’re not going to lose one on the battlefield as long as we’re willing to compete internally like this.”
Besides, a lot of good “sea stories” come out to help explain the various points of view presented when this sort of verbosity takes place…
The same sort of sparring has been going since the days when I trained the bearing indicator on my BQR-2B stack on USS Swordfish, listening to SQS-26 series sonars on now long-gone Garcia, Bronstein, and Knox class frigates, and the last of the Charles F Adams class DDG’s with their SQS-23 systems. Remember the K-CLass cruisers? Kresta, Kynda, and I forget the third. As Curt says, great sea-stories. But even up to when I retired in 95, I still held great respect for the dippers and LAMPS guys, as well as the P-3C and S-3 crews.
“Remember the K-CLass cruisers? Kresta, Kynda, and I forget the third.”
That would be the NATO designated Kara. The Soviets classified them as “Bol’shoy Protivolodochnyy Korabal” (BPK), or “Large Antisubmarine Ship”. The Kashins,Kresta IIs, and Udaloys were BOKs as well.
The Kyndas, Kresta Is, and modified Kashins were “Raketnyy Kreyers” or Rocket Cruisers.
sid, you learn that Russian in Monterey? We zoomie RC-135 linguists used to love to scoop the Naval Security Group guys with interesting
Soviet naval activity. Didn’t envy those guys flying off the boat in their EA-3Bs (what were they called, something like Queer Whales?).
I think its funny since more effort was expended on getting the photo op right than on winning the (simulated) war!
Then again, good PR is good PR!
Well — having worked to put together a 52 ship formation photo-ex of US/NATO participants during my underway training as ‘gator, it was most certainly *not* fun, especially since we were supposed to be at the heart of the form, but would be the last to join and first to depart owing to flight ops committments. The fact that come excute time we had 2 Hornet drivers who dragged out the recovery didn’t help eiher (*ahem*).
-SJS
“Didn?
“Didn’t envy those guys flying off the boat in their EA-3Bs (what were they called, something like Queer Whales?).”
Nope — on JFK we just called ‘em Whales (and usually cringed). In my youthful stupidity, and not being satisfied with flying off the boat in plane w/o an ejection seat, I count one of the last night traps in a Whale in my logbook. Ah youth, it’s a wonder we survived it…
- SJS
(Note: the JFK det subsequently went to Nimitz and lost the Whale and all hands with the missed barricade. After that Whale ops were restricted to the beach)
A3D = All 3 Dead.
http://www.silent-warriors.com/nsg.html
a little bit of background on the EA-3B that was lost of the Nimitz.
“Note: the JFK det subsequently went to Nimitz and lost the Whale and all hands with the missed barricade. After that Whale ops were restricted to the beach”
And thus began the (current)urban myth the A-3 was a poor handling aircraft around the boat. Not so. It was certainly better behaved than some of its peers lke the F7U, F8(imagine the hue and cry if the name Crusader were in use today!!) and F3H.
Of course it had to be treated with respect. I do not wish to impugn in any way the unfortunate souls who came to a bad end aboard the Nimitz, but I think it is fair to say those folks didn’t get all that much boat time and by then the A-3 was certainly not the most sought after fleet seat.
On the issue of no ejection seats, the Hummer Bubbahs still seem to be going strong without them.
The A-3 suffered from an undeserved bad rap early on as well. Adm. Pirie made a policy whereby VP and VR retreads could transition into the A-3 (the Whale affectation apparently originated in Whidbey in the late VAH days or shortly thereafter). Most were good; but some not quite so. Drove poor old Tommy Blackburn (of Jolly Rogers fame) to serious drink too as he was the east coast wing commander.
Performance did suffer to the point where COMSIXTHFLT kicked one squadron off the boat, but this unfortunate trend was rectified by Jig Dog Ramage. Pirie offered a public mea culpa as well.
Added to that was the cultural issue of all the WWII fighter puk…errr..types then becoming carrier COs not liking those big bastards clogging up their decks.
Besides, the A-3 just… wasn’t… *Sexy*. This crowd was not brought up as the D.V. Gallery generation was who grew up flying both VP and carrier aircraft.
On the issue of “Queer”. Before the DOD aircraft designation change, the EA-3B was the A3D-1Q/2Q.
Since any aircraft sporting a “Q” suffix was inherently secretive, they were all referred to as Queer birds.
Wonder how well that would float today?
Nice shot of a “Queer” A-3:
http://www.a3skywarrior.com/donatedpics/wp1.jpg
Re the fratricide going on at milblogs: I hate to see 20 kt minds fighting it out w/one upmanship. IMO, neither of those Naval comunities understand why we have CVs or aircraft for that matter. Carriers may be “just a target” to a US SSN dude (super shoe), last I checked they were on our side. As far as them playing bogie during ASW exercises in the past, they RARELY follow the pre-ex 100%, frustrating all..aviators and surface types. Not team players at all. Sort of like Lex not playing by bad guy rules as OPFOR in ACM and flying a superior acft..sure he’d easily win every time…
Unfortunately, the way the present day Navy approches the ASW problem, IMHO, is to mitigate the threat and play the “risk game”. Why not, given the current enemy is a bearded and deadly suididal maniac with an AK-47? What is sad is ASW is not a mission that can be turned on/off. It is a team game that takes patience and a lot of corroboration, unlike strike warfare which is like a bludgeon or 30 minute TV show.
I wish our Naval leadership, DoD and Congress would understand that the USN would be but a circa, 1925 “Sand Pebbles” Navy without the carrier and the CVW….how soon we forget the anniversay of Midway.
re A-3: Gee Sid. Where you an evaluator or a communicator? God love a Whale. BTW, IMO, the material condition of that Whale lost on Nimitz led to the tragic mishap and shoring of the A-3. The ES-3 Shadow program was started but short months after and was fielded by around early ’92, pretty quick…compare that the present day Growler timeline when it’s at IOC someday or the hapless Hawkeye 2000 program (hey it’s 2006 gents!)..snark.
B2
Sid:
Couple of extra points to note:
1. Mishap PAC had been a notorious poor ball flyer and source of concern to CVW-3 LSOs. Why you may ask, wasn’t something done about it? Good question and that was one of the major findings of the MIB. There were also contributing factors from the CVW-8 LSO and others as well to this mishap, but bottomline was someone who had problems at the boat before, was a marginal ball flyer, especially at night and finally events conspired against him.
2. Just because we’ve had only one completely successful bailout (i.e., all *5* crew exit the a/c via the same hatch) in the oh, 44+ years the a/c has been flying (12+ lost thus far) doesn’t mean we think we are satisfied with the current setup…
3. Oh, and as for sexy, I think the A-3 was and still is one of the finest looking a/c around and am glad I was able to get some time, albeit little, in the air with it before it was gone. Unlike the Vigi
– SJS
Geez. Guy gets stuck all day (and most the night) as a boardmember in a Board of Inquiriry, and you guys run riot in the comments boxes! Whales, forsooth.
Which reminds me, JFK’s leadership took some heat for being unable to fully tension the barrier in that mishap as I recall. Too, a gimlet eye was cast upon the very idea of barricading a Whale driver who couldn’t get aboard.
Not much room for error there.
Never learned Russian Paul, but did teach myself how to read cyrillic…kinda.
…was neither a communicator nor an evaluator B2. I was around A-3s (and later Vigis) in Sanford. Got to see the tail end of the VAH days.
One can argue that big plane ISR may be fading away with the advent of AESA and datalinks (Would that mean we will see a return to the “original” VS concept?:
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g00001/g06678.jpg)
But right now any such capability requires concrete….
B2 -
The bubbleheads might have their tricks but they’re not the only ones that stretch reality, I’ve been told of more than one Collins class that has found dipping sonars tracking its position well before the start of the exercise….
Sim,
I’m sure they do. All we ever do is hurt ourselves once we cheat in training. In aviation pilot BDA reports are widely looked on skeptically (except Lex’s of corse, ahem).
But our SSNs hold a tremendous edge over the real threat they are simulating. And that’s the way I really like it, in REAL war. When you’re OPFOR and you get smoked that’s a good thing. It’s NOT a good thing to win as OPFOR. Not following a pre-Ex and lamenting for freeplay is just counter-productive.
Sid,
re- “ISR, AESA & “VS”"- I kin smoke out you’re jist needling me, but don’t fergit that Rand paper a while back!
I reckon some of y’all haven’t read it (even the summary) so I’ll quote:
“If carriers had the ability to project and sustain, to at least 500 nmi, a persistent (and synaptic over the regions of interest) ISR capability that included a mix of sensors
(IMINT-electro-optical, radar, and other-and SIGINT, both COMINT and electronic intelligence [ELINT]), and the ability to quickly process and disseminate those data, the entire joint force would benefit.”
As somebody pointed out to me just this morning Sid:
“Hmmmm?
Sim,
I’m sure they do. All we ever do is hurt ourselves once we cheat in training. In aviation pilot BDA reports are widely looked on skeptically (except Lex’s of corse, ahem).
But our SSNs hold a tremendous edge over the real threat they are simulating. And that’s the way I really like it, in REAL war. When you’re OPFOR and you get smoked that’s a good thing. It’s NOT a good thing to win as OPFOR. Not following a pre-Ex and lamenting for freeplay is just counter-productive.
Sid,
re- “ISR, AESA & “VS”"- I kin smoke out you’re jist needling me, but don’t fergit that Rand paper a while back!
I reckon some of y’all haven’t read it (even the summary) so I’ll quote:
“If carriers had the ability to project and sustain, to at least 500 nmi, a persistent (and synaptic over the regions of interest) ISR capability that included a mix of sensors
(IMINT-electro-optical, radar, and other-and SIGINT, both COMINT and electronic intelligence [ELINT]), and the ability to quickly process and disseminate those data, the entire joint force would benefit.”
As somebody pointed out to me just this morning Sid:
“Hmmmm….I wonder what type of aircraft could do this? Hmmmmm….maybe something that’s already armed, persistent, and has a mix of sensors. Hmmmmm? Got any ideas…anyone??”
Ask Black and he’ll say: “BAMS”. I say OK..but when? Before or after the PRC gives up it’s inenvitable asperations.
B2
“re- ?
“re- “ISR, AESA & “VS””- I kin smoke out you’re jist needling me, but don’t fergit that Rand paper a while back!”
Now dont shoot the messenger B2, but here is a bit of what is “out there”:
http://www.awstonline.com/shownews/05paris/hard10.htm
I will have to go back and dig up the little AvWeek blurb some weeks back that alluded to the end of “big plane ISR” as we know it.
And I will opine the link to the old pic of VS-6 has some pertinence if “distributed ISR” becomes reality. Note the VS aircraft were *NOT* F4Fs….
Sid,
Stand down. I ain’t gonna bite ya.
No matter how much the drone lobby and BAMS in particular market their efforts from a position of their hi-level support and big bucks, the ISR done every day by P-3 AIP, EP-3, JSTAR, Rivet Joint, etc.- so on and so forth- is what works today- during GWOT. Those big platform ISR birds scratch an itch no Predator can touch. Jumping a generation of wep systems during a time of war is a very foolish proposition in my book.
Do you believe everything you read in a AW&ST glossy? If I was you I would be as critical of that publication as of everything you read in the MSM..because well, it is MSM.
re the VS aircraft: I get your pertinence re weps and sensors, and agree. I would just add “persistence” to that mix.
B2
He’s a big fan of “persistence” is that B2.
Lives by it, in fact
‘natcherly Lex! I do have nauseating endurance regarding this topic, don’t I?
I just can’t can’t stand bad decisions covered by spin, is all.
B2
Being a member of the “silent warriors” group I had some time ago read the chilling account of the loss of that Whale. What got my attention was that such a high value asset was not assigned to a more experienced aviator. No wonder subsequent ops were shore-based (and later turned over to the E-P3).
Apologies to Capt. Lex – Whales and recon ops
get me going…
“What got my attention was that such a high value asset was not assigned to a more experienced aviator.”
It was an unfortunate manifestation of an internecine battle fought long ago.
Many carrier COs really hated the A-3s (and A-5s) aboard. B2 could probably expand on this, but those were fleet seats that became quite unpopular by the 1970s.
This translated down to the deckplate level as well. Check out this little vignette from a member of RVAH-1 who was them aboard the Enterprise in 1968:
http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/specs/northam/ra-5c.htm
“My heart broke on 5 May 1968 when I heard from the Air Boss that Lt’s. Norrington and Tangeman were shot down over RVN. ***It made me angry when I overheard some yellowshirts cheering that they now had one less Vigi to move around the ship.*** Many years later, during a visit to the Vietnam Memorial Wall, I was thrilled to NOT find their names on it….”
I think it is notable that the skipper of that carrier was the most vocal opponent the A-5. Not just the airplane (which had its share of faults), but the entire concept. Called it, “a dog” when he was CAG. No wonder those yellow shirts had the kind of attitude they did.
Later, as NavAir, he fathered the Hornet. All those Hornets in the above post is mute testimony as to whose vision has become ascendant in Naval Aviation…And I will opine it is a vision that has swung Naval Aviation too far in one direction.
I rember being in Fallon when this happened as a “salty” second sea tour LT when this mishap occurred. I remember our DCAG’s comment about the mishap to this day, he called it “Organized murder…..”.
The mishap is instructive in how small decisions in various places can add up to big trouoble quickly. There was plenty of blame to go around, on Nimitz, in CVW-8 and the Strike Group Staff…..
I have flight time in CV based Whales and the heavier, shore based EKA-3B flown by VAQ-33. Like SJS, I went flying in a whale one afternoon for what was supposed to be a pinkie night trap with a guy who was getting re-night qualed. (I sat in the seat behind the pilot that faced backwards….). 5 passes and 2 trips to the tanker later, we finally got aboard.
Actually the USAF is not immune to this either. The write-off of a very valuable RC-135S Cobra Ball in a landing mishap at Shemya AFB in the Aleutians was partially attributed to extremely severe conditions including gusty crosswinds, low visibility, and blowing snow. The “Ball” struck the embankment on approach and five crewmembers were killed. Cause of the accident was an inadequately trained and underqualified AC. As a result SAC increased qualifications necessary for Shemya-certified ACs from 1000 hrs to 2500hrs plus standing as an instructor pilot.
So here was the USAF assigning your average KC-135 tanker pilot to fly one of its most expensive aircraft out of a base known for some of the poorest flying WX around.
I hope this link works – it’s about Whales operating out of Shemya, with Army guys manning the recon compartment no less. http://community-2.webtv.net/@HH!93!42!D0AB2268A640/Det1Shemya/TalesofTheWhale/
I have to admit I was a bit surprised to learn that the loss of the Nimitz Whale is well known to this group. BTW, is it true that the only comfort facility on the EA-3s was a relief tube?
And here I thought it was tough on an 18+ hour Rivet Joint mission and the “fully functioning”
flushable head packed it in. Not good with a 30+ crew though.
In a west coast airwing many years ago (like 20-30) pilots were mercilessly broken out into 2 groups on deployment- Blue-water qualed and non-Bluewater qualed. Yeah, I know they have the same rules on the east coast, but the Med has many diverts. In Pac when your nearest signal divert is Wake/1800 miles..well, you get the point.
Normally, in those days, we picked up the 2 Whales assigned to the airwing near Guam. Since I was living in a 8 man stateroom with only five assigned (ah-the high life!), we got one of the A-3 pilots as a roomie. This det had only two pilots assigned and they normally flew a day hop and a night hop.
Well, for the sake of brevity, one of the pilots fell quickly into the non-bluewater category ASAP and soon migrated (deteriorated?) into the day only category, which is an unenvied, unique & non-hacking position to be in. Meanwhile, the other guy, my roomie, flew the whole line period in the IO (Gonzo) AT NIGHT, seemed like every night, in the Whale….
After debrief, he would come to the stateroom, sit in the big comfy chair we had set up for him, and light up the first of about 8-10 Camels. Of course, we also provided a little Kentucky (his homestate) libation. He slept during the day.
HE was the airwing hero.
B2