The results of a new Pew survey are in:
In one of the survey’s most striking findings, majorities in Indonesia, Turkey, Egypt, and Jordan say that they do not believe groups of Arabs carried out the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks. The percentage of Turks expressing disbelief that Arabs carried out the 9/11 attacks has increased from 43% in a 2002 Gallup survey to 59% currently. And this attitude is not limited to Muslims in predominantly Muslim countries – 56% of British Muslims say they do not believe Arabs carried out the terror attacks against the U.S., compared with just 17% who do.
Em. Coffee, fellas. Wake up and smell it. Osama ‘fessed up, and all.
The good news? Things are somewhat better with European Muslims.
While Europe’s Muslim minorities are about as likely as Muslims elsewhere to see relations between Westerners and Muslims as generally bad, they more often associate positive attributes to Westerners – including tolerance, generosity, and respect for women. And in a number of respects Muslims in Europe are less inclined to see a clash of civilizations than are some of the general publics surveyed in Europe. Notably, they are less likely than non-Muslims in Europe to believe that there is a conflict between modernity and being a devout Muslim.
Take your victories where you can get them, says I.
These people are going to beleive what ever suits them. While, it would be nice if the world thought better of us, what we need to make these people understand is if you decide to come after us there will be a severe price to pay. We need to get off the Arab oil tit so that we stop paying for our own destruction. We must spend what ever it takes to make sure we remain the strongest and best equiped.
Hunh? I don’t get it. OBL “took credit” for it, all the hijackers have been identified as Muslims… I just don’t get it.
I’d be interested in knowing, if they refuse to believe the Muslims carried out the 9/11 atrocities, then who do they think actually did?
Oh. Wait. I bet I know – we did it to ourselves, right?
“…if they refuse to believe the Muslims carried out the 9/11 atrocities, then who do they think actually did?”
Why Israel of course. The Mossad in particular. I am not making this up. That is what “the street” has been told, since day 1. In their culture facts and truth have lesser value, than what they want to believe… And that Kris, is why we find ourselves in this mess w/Islam vs the West.
B2
B2- I can’t say I’m surprised, though I guess I missed that one…it’s not just Islam vs. the West. It’s more that it’s Islam vs. the Jews, and it’s a war that’s been raging since Cain killed Abel. I’m not so sure there is a chance for peace in a conflict that’s been going on for over 2,000 years.
Kris,
Oh, but it is radical Islam vs the West! Not just Judaism vs Islam and that pesky history…
In western civilization we have an abiding interest, for the most part, when it comes to the scientific method. Additionally, we have experienced the historical school of hard knocks to become nations of law. For the most part our society rejects unreality (exception being moonbats).
There are no parallel devlopments, fully matured, in the Islamic world, yet. Use of technology (normally ours), vast quantities of oil or military power will not give them what they need to fundamentally change for the better. Look at the 9-11 killers. They came from wealthy/middle class families and were educated.
Until the Islamic world changes, either from common sense, or are compelled from application of force, our western culture is in jeopardy. Simple as that.
We must fight.
B2
And this from the mentality that brought us “There was no holocaust”: http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/prof_jones_refutes_official_911_story.htm
B2 – please don’t misunderstand, I don’t WANT us to just sit back and take an observatory role in world events related to islamic fanaticsm. Quite the contrary, I have a personal interest in seeing to it that “…the Islamic world changes, either from common sense, or are compelled from application of force…”. I agree completely.
And I don’t deny that the conflict now includes Islam vs. The West, but I still believe it’s our relationship with Israel that brought us the WTC in 1998, the USS Cole and 9/11, and everything since.
Don’t misunderstand that either – I wouldn’t change our relationship with Israel. I don’t blame the GWOT on Israel, nor do I blame our government for helping them. The Islamic fanatics are responsible for their own warped, twisted and damaged view of the world – and I believe, like you, that they will pay the price. I just hope I’m alive to see it, so I can rejoice in their downfall and party in the streets.
Kris,
I respectfully disagree. It’s not our relationship with Israel, that’s a red herring. It’s not that we’re the lone superpower. It’s not that we’re rich and free and healthy, and they aren’t. It’s not because the British colonised, then liberated India, or occupied the Palestinian Mandate, or the French strolled through Egypt. In your case, it’s not because you’re a woman. Well, not just because.
It’s because you and I are kaffir (kufr, sp. varies). You and I are kaffir, and we exist, and we are not subject to Islam.
Kaffir, unbeliever. Kaffir, or unbelief, is per Sharia the worst thing in the world. Worse than rape, murder, or anything else. It is unforgivable, and Allah won’t forgive it. It follows that the unbeliever (kaffir, infidel, take your choice) is less than human, less than swine, and must be either converted, subjected, or killed.
Islam, as its practitioners like to say, is a complete way of life. It has an answer for everything. And everything that is wrong in the world is a result of the Jews and the infidels. Allah said so, in the Koran, repeatedly, early and often. So did Mohammed, repeatedly, early and often, as documented in the Ahadith. It’s all there in black and white.
Which teaching goes a long way to explain those poll results, for those who are tired of circling the core of the problem and would rather confront it. If there’s a victory in that poll somewhere, I’m hard pressed to see it. I’ve spent way too much time with Muslims who speak one way for Western/kafir audiences, and another among themselves to put any credence whatsoever in any Pew Center poll. It’s nice they said nice things to a pollster. It’s meaningless in terms of policy, theirs or what ours should be.
/rant off
Zane- Sad but true. Who wants the truth when it is so ugly. In this specialized, modern world who wants to confront historical & cultural truths.
Kris- Over 1000 years of history validate what Zane says above.
I have a direct and immediate problem with Islam, as Zane relays, “must be either converted, subjected, or killed”. IMO, all Westerners, not just Christians or Jews, must confront that mindset and change it, nuetralize it or use force. Changing it has no examples in 1000 years. Trying to neutralize it has not solved the problem, but often delays the inevitable tragic consequences. Use of force has been the only remedy that has proven successful in 1000 years.
Islam will not change of it’s own volition as did the Christianity through numerous schisms, and the reformation, rennaisance and enlightement. As an example look at how the sects within Islam itself treat each other today.
B2
Zane & B2 – thank you for educating me on a portion of Islam that I wasn’t familiar with. I’m not novice enough to believe that it is a religion of peace, but I really had no idea the depth of the disgust and distrust was to this level. (I still think the conflict started with the Jews, and began to include the west over time. Perhaps a LONG time ago it started, but it was first with the Jews.)
Zane – forgive my naivete, but don’t Muslims worship the same God that Christians do, even if they call him Allah? And if that’s not as naive as I think it sounds, then how can this be justified when you talk about the kaffir: “It is unforgivable, and Allah won?
Zane & B2 – thank you for educating me on a portion of Islam that I wasn’t familiar with. I’m not novice enough to believe that it is a religion of peace, but I really had no idea the depth of the disgust and distrust was to this level. (I still think the conflict started with the Jews, and began to include the west over time. Perhaps a LONG time ago it started, but it was first with the Jews.)
Zane – forgive my naivete, but don’t Muslims worship the same God that Christians do, even if they call him Allah? And if that’s not as naive as I think it sounds, then how can this be justified when you talk about the kaffir: “It is unforgivable, and Allah won’t forgive it. It follows that the unbeliever (kaffir, infidel, take your choice) is less than human, less than swine, and must be either converted, subjected, or killed.”
It encourages genocide, in a religious context. And I guess I am naive in the end, because I don’t understand how they can say they are a peace-loving faith on one hand, yet their most revered prophet advocates cold-blooded mass murder.
Eye opening to say the least Zane. Frightening and clarifying.
Kris,
There are numerous sites which, from a Christian and/or Jewish perspective, address the question of whether Allah (lit., “The God”, not “God”)is the same as the Christian or Jewish God. From an Islamic perspective, Christians and Jews worship a false god, one that has been set in place of Allah. From a practical perspective, however, their gods are not the same, that is, they expect very different behaviors from their followers. For a different, atheist perspective, you might try Ali Sina’s faithfreedom.org website.
And yes, if you learn the Sira, the biography of Mohammed, you’ll find that after his own tribesmen, the Jews of Arabia were the second party to reject Mohammed’s claim to Prophet status. As those two relationships soured and Mohammed couldn’t get the honor and hearing he felt his due, Allah’s revelation became increasingly violent, resulting in the raids on the Meccan merchants, and wars with Jewish tribes, including the massacre of the Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe that had a treaty with Mohammed. Their story is extremely instructive, as it is the model Muslims used, and still use, for treaties (al sulh) and ceasefires (hudna). So in a way you can trace the antagonism back to Mohammed and the Jews.
Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians were considered by Mohammed not as kafir, but as believers who have been misled from the true revelation of Allah. That is why they are called the People of the Book. They are, nonetheless, deviants, and not to be accorded the rights and privileges of Muslims, and many Imams have argued that Christians and Jews are, in fact, polytheists and kafir. Google the Pact of Omar (or Umar), which spells out the terms of the dhimmi, or the ?
Kris,
There are numerous sites which, from a Christian and/or Jewish perspective, address the question of whether Allah (lit., “The God”, not “God”)is the same as the Christian or Jewish God. From an Islamic perspective, Christians and Jews worship a false god, one that has been set in place of Allah. From a practical perspective, however, their gods are not the same, that is, they expect very different behaviors from their followers. For a different, atheist perspective, you might try Ali Sina’s faithfreedom.org website.
And yes, if you learn the Sira, the biography of Mohammed, you’ll find that after his own tribesmen, the Jews of Arabia were the second party to reject Mohammed’s claim to Prophet status. As those two relationships soured and Mohammed couldn’t get the honor and hearing he felt his due, Allah’s revelation became increasingly violent, resulting in the raids on the Meccan merchants, and wars with Jewish tribes, including the massacre of the Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe that had a treaty with Mohammed. Their story is extremely instructive, as it is the model Muslims used, and still use, for treaties (al sulh) and ceasefires (hudna). So in a way you can trace the antagonism back to Mohammed and the Jews.
Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians were considered by Mohammed not as kafir, but as believers who have been misled from the true revelation of Allah. That is why they are called the People of the Book. They are, nonetheless, deviants, and not to be accorded the rights and privileges of Muslims, and many Imams have argued that Christians and Jews are, in fact, polytheists and kafir. Google the Pact of Omar (or Umar), which spells out the terms of the dhimmi, or the “protection” of the People of the Book. For 1450 years, these are the conditions that non-Muslims who live under Muslim rule must abide by, or suffer slavery, rape and death as a consequence. All because they are not Muslim.
Zane – alot to ponder and dissect. Thank you for taking the time to provide me with some avenues of research.
I guess if we are going to live in interesting times, it’s probably helpful to know more about the enemy that makes things interesting…
[...] Occasional reader (and professional Cassandra) Zane sends along this link, in which Middle East Forum director Daniel Pipes analyzes the Pew poll first referenced here. [...]