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At least I can say I flew it when it was cool…Ecce: The FA-18G Growler
Hat tip to alert reader Jason. Sigh 44 comments to At least I can say I flew it when it was cool… |
Credo"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones "Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra" "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche "A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke "Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas "Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex Relocating? SponsorsNearly 60k hits and 130k page views per month - low rates! Advertise with Lex! Stinkin' Badges For the Effort!Recent PostsPopularPagesTags1st Amendment afghanistan Araby army Blogging buffoonery china culture economy education Flying Friday Musings geopol GWOT Headlines History iran iraq Israel issues media Memory Lane Military Navy norks Oz pakistan people piracy politicians politics Politics and Culture pundits Russia seals sea stories silliness Small Stuff SoCal technology UAVs UK usaf usmc weapons WP Cumulus Flash tag cloud by Roy Tanck requires Flash Player 9 or better. Spam Blocked |
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Hey! Where’s the Buddy Store?
I like it, and in light of this little gem we may see them in RAAF colours yet
Wow, Growler indeed. Just love the plane pron.
If the Growler is a two seater, is it still “cool”?
/of course it is–it’s a Hornet!
MCPO Airdale hit the nail on the head. It will jam for 40 minutes, then betty will say “Bingo…Bingo”
Sigh
Remember when the air wing was 70% Grumman and REALLY cool (AND durable!)
Nose
Oops, I looked again, that is a drop on sta. 4 so I’ll assume there is one on 8 also, so make that 1+10 before bingo…
Is the Navy trying to tone down the rivalries within the jet community by giving them all the same planes to fly?…No more Tomcat vs Hornet or fighter vs attack type arguments.
A friend in Whidbey Island is quite psyched about the Growler.
Gah! Where’s the Compound W?
Could there be anything else hanging off of it? The mind harks back to a pic of a Spad (Skyraider) with a toilet seat hanging off the wings during ‘Nam.
“Oops, I looked again, that is a drop on sta. 4 so I?
I’m still waiting for the hornet with the dome on top…. and the VSTOL version with dipping sonar and a rescue hoist. Then, and only then, the bugs will have all bases covered.
It’s really not a Growler but a Rhino dressed up to simulate a Growler to analyze flying characteristics(??). Trust me.
In early Jul they had the Growler “test article” conduct multiple T&G, roll/go, waveoff, etc. The following week more flights were performed (same data points) with a Prowler.
I personally observed the landing pattern tests here at east coast test complex…Caveat: without benefit of an official test plan which I (moi) really don’t need to convey my own well-ingrained analytical flight test impressions. My observations were made up close and personal while conducting my daily 1 hour walks (3.45 SM)around the perimeter of the test facility. Each jet was observed for approximetly 10-12 trips around the pattern.
Observations: Summary-LOUD, REAL friggin LOUD. Obviously, more power must be required on Growler to fly the pattern. At 600-800 ft, level flight the noise is painfull to those on the ground within 1/4 mile of flight path. LSOs will certainly need supplemental electrostatic ear protection on the platform. Forget use at Fentress or any outlying field FCLP practice near a population oif hearing enabled persons. Subjective db level of Growler I would assess to be 12-20% higher Prowler seen in follow on data points.
MCPO- use of the Growler will also (to support the 40 minute mission) REQUIRE more SuperHornet tankers on almost a 1:1 ratio to support the Growler off the CV for overhead tanking….
B2
The Phantom types return return with revenge! I can already hear that old Phantom call to departure while still on deck……”TANKER POSIT?!!”
*snerk*
Steve;
“I?
bb,
As a 18 year resident of VaBeachVa, home of the east coast’s one and only “Master Jet Base,” (and as a former FRS and CVW LSO who has spent literally a thousand days and nights at Fentress) I can tell you that the Rhino is the loudest jet I have ever heard. Louder than a Prowler!
I live about 2 dme from NTU, about 1000 yards right of Centerline for runway 23R. Not much wind today and they are rattling the roof!
It is a loud loud jet. Whidby is gonna love them.
Nose
?
Sid – That’s a HOOT! Can’t imagine the gas bills for the VAW guys. . . they’ll poop themselves.
Sid,
Love it! The best part is it only has one seat!!!! Finally don’t have to listen to all that whining!
CICO “Are we there yet?”
Pilot “No, stop asking me.”
ACO “I gotta pee”
Pilot “You just gotta hold it the recovery is in 5 minutes.”
RO “The CICO is touching me.”
CICO “AM NOT!”
RO “He is too!”
Pilot “If I have to go to high holding and come back there…”
Co Pilot “Boss just told us to charlie”
Pilot “Roger that”
CICO “Now I gotta pee too!”
Pilot “We’ll be on the deck in just a second.”
Co Pilot (On radio) “600, Hawkeye Ball 4.0″
LSO “Roger Ball”
CICO “The RO is switching the power on and off!”
Pilot “Did he say power?” (adds power)
Co Pilot “You guys be quiet back there”
LSO “Don’t go high”
RO “The CICO is kicking my seat!”
Pilot “DAMN IT, you guys be quiet”
LSO “You’re high!”
ACO “When are we going to be there?”
LSO “Waveoff waveoff”
CICO / ACO / RO at same time, “AWWWWWWWW”
It’s like that every time. Single seat would be nice. Hmmmm.
Nose
Here is my question which is prompted by my memory of COD flights.
A plane that lands on a ship has needs to be designed to withstand certain stresses which do not effect a plane that lands on a long smooth runway.
Isn’t the Army losing something when it buys a plane designed to land on ships?
n a
Nose,
My analytical observations also baselined the EA-6B Prowler that flew the same profile a week later. I submit the Growler is (believe it or not)significantly louder than the Rhino. To carry all that non-jettisonable weight it’s carrying more power….
The Prowler noise was nominal as compared to the Growler (simulated). Prowler noise is a lower dB though still loud at W/O (which you, no doubt have experienced). The Growler noise was literally painful, especially on W/O. Even power additions in the pattern hurt my ears and these ole’ ears have suffered over 30 years of naval aviation as have yours, I’m sure.
I not only fully believe your Fentress anecdotes I can confirm them with 100% professional judgement. The data would not lie, I’ll bet. Mucho lawsuits will develop over this, mark my words…Fentress, Whitehouse, you name it.
B2
LOL @ Nose
Another advantage of single seat? If you don’t put the gear handle down, there’s no one else to share the blame with. Funny how that fixes one’s attention to the checklist. Not to say it always worked, but it always worked for me.
Early submission of nickname for the Growler to go along w/Rhino kin:
Hippo
B2
Nose, the dialog from the station wagon is a gas! (No pun intended – well, maybe). And the pic of the F/E-18 is great.
Lex,
You Fighter Attack Guys have only yourselves to blame. Some of you all rose to powers of note inside the establishment (both inside and outside the 5-sided wind tunnel and over at Crystal City) and have all along been claiming that you could do it all, while being cheaper and faster. Well the black shoes have listen and have now given you enough rope.
, along with the ability to still carry `winders or AMRAAM. Give the folks at Boeing St. Louis half a chance they will come up with this bad boy, http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal2/1001-1100/Gal1027_F-18_Roberts/gal1027.htm. Just replace everything but the SAR helo with a Hornet on the flight deck.
As a guy that work inside the A-6 community, then the F-14 community and now the Prowler community. All I have heard from the folks inside the F-18 community is the ability to be swingers and do the multi-role. With the F-18E they proved that they could pass gas just as well as the old KA-3D Whale, KA-6D Intruder, or even the S-3. Now they just need be able to put out just the electrons and see how well this will work. Of course if what the Boeing St. Louis folks are to believed this jet will be the ultimate swinger since the electronics package will be removable and can be replaced with the gun and attack systems again if they just need a straight attack aircraft. On top of that they are thinking of giving the ECMO a stick to fly with as well
The only thing I am worried about is how many times if this bad boy is carrying a Sidewinder or AMRAAM, ECM Pods, HARM and a MiG come up how soon the pods will be jettisioned so that some pilot will be able to paint only only a HARM kill but also a MiG under his name.
All joking aside, In reality though the USN and USMC are the only people in the US Department of Defense still flying tactical Offensive ECM aircraft that have the ability to accompany the strike group downtown. We do need an upgrade in those abilities and need it bad. The EA-6B is a tired jet and a large number of thier airframes are coming close to high time for flight hours. Hopefully, this is a good choice and won’t end up being a bastardized part of the air wing (as if us Electrics weren’t already
) that is only talked to when a few guys are zapped in the approach pattern or Marshall stack by a SAM.
Charles,
1. I didn’t know that Hornet guys were swingers. That explains a lot.
2. If someone in marshall or the pattern gets shot with a SAM, I’d be more worried about why the carrier is in shallow water than about losing a couple of throw-away jets.
3. I’m pretty sure that if a Prowler guy jettisoned ECM Pods to get a kill, it would be his last flight (although we did give that EP-3 guy that landed a flyable airplane at an enemy airfield a DFC, so what do I know??)
That was a little ranty on your part. Just lay back and you will be assimilated. Resistance is futile…
Nose
Nose,
They have already tried to assimilate me twice. Twice I have bailed only to yet another dying platform (A-6’s to F-14’s to EA-6B’s). I will probably be assimilated, but darn it I don’t have to like it. Don’t you know a griping sailor is a happy sailor
My previous post was probably a little ranty, but after about 15yrs of hearing from other Hornet maintainers and O’s about how they are the CNN/Hollywood factor for today’s Navy. When they are given a mission that is just as important as putting warheads on foreheads go, “Well that wont give me face time with Larry…” That just seems to get my blood to warm and rise ever so slightly.
Oh and it isn’t a joke that the guys at Boeing/St Louis are talking about putting a stick in the back and are really looking into making the G the ability to convert back to an F if CAG needs another bomber. There reps here at the Rock have been talking about that along with the reduced flight per maintaince hours projections, along with giving the backseater a stick and still give the bird the ability to zap MiGs as it flies downtown with the Alpha Strike.
“If someone in marshall or the pattern gets shot with a SAM, I?
Charles, re “They have already tried to assimilate me twice. Twice I have bailed only to yet another dying platform (A-6?
*waves hand in the air, distractedly*
What is that annoying whine in here?
I don’t whine… I squeak…
Despite the lack o’gas and the documented noise, you “experts”, riddle me the basic, overhead tanking problem with a deck full o’Rhinos and Hippos…
I ain’t talking big wet USAF wing MISSION tankers here, I’m talking “basic survival” entirely unique naval aviation tanking. Do your own math and tell me, no shoot, how you’re gonna do it. I’d love to hear something even approaching what will work, no spin. If you give me a plan that works I’ll have a cup o’shut the f%^k Up! Promise.
I challenge you.
Personally, I would love to detail “Black” (you know who EXACTLY I am talking about) back into an 0-5 airops job aboard any all-Hornet airwing….
B2
There’s no magic to it- CVW-14 came back from deployment as an all-Hornet airwing – I don’t think they’re the first – and I believe they had 5×5-wet FA-18E/F (out of 24 total in the wing) on deck at all times. Some airwings launch the tankers first, mission/recovery tank up front and then proceed kilo when the recovery is done – that gets Zulu some SSC time. Others use the same loadout but do a more traditional overhead recovery tanker. That hangs out overhead until relieved by the oncoming.
With only 20 total Charlies, instead of 36, and with the internal fuel capacity of the E/F’s, the tanking requirement actually goes down.
It works.
It works in the benign A2/AD environment of today (not whining mind you, just an observation)…
Hmm. AD is for cruisers and DDGs, the “fighters” these days being considered little more than eyeballs in an approach to hostilities phase.
And even then, a mission configured E/F can not only bucket brigade to outer stations much faster than could an S-3 or KA-6, but they’ve got radars to help facilitate rendezvous with, and worse comes to worse, can actually fill caps if required with offensive loadouts.
Glad to see you in on a CWS Friday!
Good try but I ain’t drinking yet! That is the workaround my Can-do friend, not a legitimate plan….
That’s 16 less attack aircraft to support the troops and defend the airspace. What about AsuW- sea control, whatever it’s called? Don’t give me that bull about P-3’s they’re all over the beach! Add the Growler in oh, but wait, we’ll shore base them as a workaround…
5×5 as a ratio to 24 Rhino’s sounds good but all 24 are not on the roof and this is a nominal plan..not blue-water oriented either. But you know that you’re just giving me the company-line.
“Zulu gets SSC time”, hell I could do that with a pair of binocs from the bridge for as much range as he’s got left…Next it’ll be the “JDAM is that much more effective” pitch.
65 aircraft on a deck designed for 95-100 doesn’t cut it with me. I want my tax dollars worth on that 2 million dollar a day flight deck….with as attack aircraft as it can carry.
None of this is personal and none is whining.
B2
When have we ever been anything but a “can-do” force? “He who will not risk cannot win,” said a noted privateer at the country’s birth. Heavy American frigates went up against the world’s largest and most professional navy in 1812, themselves equipped with line-of-battle ships. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, said Farragut. Ask 32-knot Burke what the top speed of his DESRON actually was. Think about what might have happened if Midway went the other way, as it easily might have done. I bet Spruance had it in mind, when he wisely decided not to follow a withdrawing Yamamoto, and a good thing too. Our service periods nearly overlap, I think. I remember the idea of chainsaw vs Backfires, and I remember thinking that it might go either way if we came to blows.
Maybe in some halcyon days of yore when we could run through a product cycle in less than 10 years, and item costs were measured in single digit millions, and too many folks – I don’t say yourself included – assume that ideal cycle length, endurance and range metrics belongs immutably to the platform they used to fly.
We’re never as good as we used to be, especially since what we used to be gets better with every passing year
We have the force we can afford – in fact, probably more than we can afford. Necking down TMS is a strategy to keep us alive, and the perfect air wing will only drive a stake in our heart over the short term. You’ve seen the waterfalls and sand tables, so you know exactly what I’m talking about.
Nobody’s saying it’s perfect – the question is whether it’s good enough. The answer today appears to be a qualified, “Yes.” Some folks will disagree, I suppose. The fleet makes do.
You know there are holes in “the scheme”, serious holes. I have seen most of the stuff above and all of the bidness stuff, but I can’t stand the constant spin coming out of the front office (not you).. C’mon you post yourself on doublespeak and such recently. I may call MYSELF a dinosaur jokingly, but my mind ain’t (yet) and I still care about naval aviation..I agree, Chainsaw is on the ash heap of history for me too but methinks you may be patronizing/marginalizing me! That ain’t nice ‘bro!
The gist: “…and the perfect air wing will only drive a stake in our heart over the short term.”
Doesn’t a 12 Billion dollar carrier and the American public deserve it?
I’ve said this before. It ain’t gonna take some folks long before they figure out our shell-game here. You already see some of it in the 8 carrier folks, the smaller carrier folks and the why any carrier folks runnin around. I don’t know about you but I’ll gladly give in to UCAVs if they really work but I’d hate to see the Navy broke down to some aluminum patrol boats (LCS) with million dollar cruise missiles and a cuppla do-everything subs, all covered by BAMs from the air….
I desist outta respect for a company man (I are one too Pal), but I will not drink that hot of you know what!
b2
Patronizing/marginalizing? I hope not. I certainly respect your service, your opinion and your continuing contributions. I am honestly disagreeing with you though, and I’d hope you recognize the value of a fellow sea dog’s honest and respectful disagreement. Tell you what, I’ll buy you a beer, so long as you let me drink it
You know the tale of how many carriers it takes to fill the COCOM requirement. You also know how much it costs to support those decks with combat power, and the likelihood of getting any OPM with all of the GWOT being fought by dusty boots.
We either cut costs on the roof, or we cut decks, and the first time that something awful happens and the CinC asks “where are the carriers?” and we have to answer, they’re both in port, Norfolk, well: It was good while it lasted, that naval aviation thing.
Like you, my flying days are past and opening, and like you, I think that the nation has an enduring need for the moveable feast we represent. But where I’m at, I’ve seen leadership shaking down boy scouts for lunch money whenever they aren’t looking behind the cushions for quarters.
Times are hard.
I was and still am a Boy Scout pal!
Where I’m at I’ve been shook down so many times I wear my pockets inside out!
We’re in a war..for long time sailor..we need more $$$. Let’s start a war bond drive.
B2
I have been observing (and at times directly particiaping in) Naval Aviation for nearly half its entire existence-not that it matters just even a little-but in all that time I have never seen the tailhook navy as unbalanced as it is today.
And I will say that unbalance is inimical to its continued existence. I suspect you will be seeing more opinion pieces like Stansfield Turner’s coming down the pike.
Interestingly enough this guy saw it coming a while back:
http://www.usni.org/proceedings/Articles00/prorowe.htm
The shift toward a littoral, land-attack focus was an appropriate response to the demise of the Cold War’s open-ocean naval threat. In the rush to capture limited defense dollars by cashing in on power-projection funding, however, the Navy has effectively eliminated the battle group’s ability to operate in a contested littoral without land-based support. This situation will become worse in the next decade, as current budget plans are followed and littoral area-denial threats continue to grow.
The bottom line is that the naval aviation leadership’s myopic dedication of strike capabilities has stripped the carrier air wing of critical support in virtually every other mission area. The recent reversal in Navy JFACC policy means that land bases will be required for command and control, even if they are not needed to support actual operational capabilities. The few bright spots are overwhelmed by the many gaps in essential capabilities.
While it true that the carrier may be able to position aircraft somewhat closer to an enemy’s coastline, Air Force tanking (on which the Navy is also dependent) can ensure similar combat reach for land-based strike fighters. Even the supposed force-protection benefits of basing air power at sea are increasingly questionable, given the growth of area-denial threats and the Navy’s reluctance to devote real resources to ASW, ASUW, overland sensing (to detect mobile missile launchers), or mine countermeasures. If putting the carrier air wing at sea provides no unique advantages, then why spend billions upon billions of dollars for aircraft carriers and specialized, tailhook-equipped aircraft?
Lex,
This should be a Cdr. Salamander post, but . . . ?
I probably am the problem. However, I was taught early on in my life there are times and places to mount up on the horse, grab a lance and charge at the windmill. Sometimes it will cause people to have an honest discussion and not do the whole head bob, smile, thumbs up praise of the bosses. Of course that is probably why I am still an E-6 and looking hard and fast at HYT and having a better chance of throwing a snow ball across the Sahara at high noon then making E-7 or LDO/CWO. Yet some one has to do it or we end up with statements like: “Those magnetic exploders work like a champ you just don’t know how to fire a torpedo”, “Who needs a gun (or the manned airplane)? Missiles are the future.”, “Peace is at hand since the wall has fallen, we don’t need a military.”, “We don’t want to inflame tensions so your request for armor is denied”
Lex is right to the point that times are hard and if there was a way we could do a magizine subscription or bake sale for a few extra spares or a few more planes/ships that would be great. What is worst though and is challenging my conventional wisdom and logic is how the US Navy has been denying itself that the other missions are just as important in the air wing as those that cross the beach. The ASW, ECM, COD/VOD, ELINT, SAR/CSAR. I know from being near some of the debates about those roles for 15yrs the US Naval Aviation establishment has been spinning its wheels trying to figure out what to do when a large number of these aircraft start to hit obselenance and the powers in large and charge don’t want talk about replacement/upgrade because it isn’t cool.
Sid,
I ain’t registered but I know the author…
Re the big picture, I’ll apply “Occam’s Razor” (man- between that and schedenfrude I sound like a philosophy major, eh?):
I’ll make it simpler. The day AIRPAC became Chief Naval Air Forces…on purpose. The big H-Mafia specifically.
Another razor example- We only have one aircraft and one weapon that can put a ship down over the horizon by Naval Air now and only if that weapon can really be steered to impact…The savior helo moves at 100kts, the Hornet hasn’t enough fuel (even IF it was carrying the missile), and the P-3 is elsewhere….MGod, isn’t this mission what Midway was all about?
Naval Air Forces my ass…It’s Naval Aviation and it has nothing to do with the Airforce. It’s fighter, attack, ASW, SAR, MCM, EW, and logistics aircraft uniquely developed to fight on the sea and from it. No I don’t say we shouldn’t do ISR, air superiority or CAS from the JMETs..I’m saying the taxpayers and their representatives want Naval Aviation- not some sea-borne air force…
For that matter, why do we have Marine fixed wing aboard carriers too? Since when did the USMC trump the Navy at their own game… Somedays I think we were punished and continue to be for Tailhook or something I can’t put my finger on. Regardless, I can point to the individuals, both active and retired, who set up this fine situation.
B2
[...] the indignant post by Neptunus Lex about “pimping his ride” to make “Electric” FA-18s, I wonder how he’ll react to his community becoming MCM [...]