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How long has this been going on, anyway?Occasional reader GreyEagle06 sends along this long (for a blog post) but useful essay by Ohio State University assistant professor T. David Curp. Well worth a read, most of it below the fold. Quoted at length and attributed, since we lost the link.  By T. David Curp Crusading ideals in the West were an answer to the greater threat of jihad. They were spurred by fear and necessity in a desperate competition with Islam that, for many centuries, Christians lost 9 comments to How long has this been going on, anyway? |
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Good read, even if you’re not a history major.
World leaders try to spin the current conflict (world wide) as a political war.Senator McCain said it best, parapharsed, “this conflict is much more dangerous and much more serious than Viet Nam ever was. These people want us dead. They are not defending territory or a form of government. They want us dead, all of us who do not share their vision of God.”
The muslims here in the states seem to live under the general philosophy of tolerance of other religions, but when a big time Ayatollah shows up here I predict a whole new ball game.
I don’t have any profound, sage or even logical words of wisdom, but I can see that the history lesson in this post is our future if we don’t pay attention NOW!
Aw c’mon Phil. You think people are going to actually pay attention to history? Hell, they don’t even know we’re in a war for our very survival let alone expect them to pay attention to history!
We are all Chicken Little and the sky is fallin’! What’s 2,000 years of history to compare with how wrong war “feels”? If we just make nice the jihadis will be nice back. It is human nature after all. Heh!
Now political correctness is guiding our ROE and we are no longer doing more than policing and training. Love those PC supplementals. They’re working real well. Top to bottom we are in serious trouble. Count on it!
We could take some lessons from the Jews. Wonder if the DoD is watching what it takes to win a war against a jihad. Doubt it! Too busy worrying about “world opinion” or “domestic politics”. Oh well, time to charge some more Marines to make further appeasement to the PC gods. *sigh*
/dripping sarcasm (not directed to anyone in particular)
Dad-your point is well taken.We wouldn’t want to offend the jerks that are trying to make us look like monkeys and in the end, not just kill us, but intimitadte by torture all others into submission.
Thank God for the brave men and women that are at the post and stand watch in these days. I’m not sure even they understand the future generations they are standing up for in their service today.We will prevail in the end but it’s painfull in the inbetween time.
Curp may be able to recite history and put a tang and make it somewhat understandable, (as a story, not as to causes or effects) but when you read his closing words you see that he, just like millions of others, just does not get it, when it comes to Islam.
If you hope in one hand and sh!t in the other, guess which hand is full.
Hope against Islam is like vapor against steel. The only protection from Islam is force, deadly force, where it breaks not only their bodies but their will. In many cases, death is the only thing that breaks true believers will, because that is what they want, a martyr’s death.
Hearts and minds of true believers can not be won, they must be destroyed.
While the moderate, or sometimes Muslim doesn’t want to kill us in order for Islam to rule the world, they want to subvert, use and abuse our laws and governments to the same purpose as the Muslims that want to slit your throat or cut your childrens heads off.
Don’t forget that. Islam is the enemy, it is the most evil cult ever placed on this world. It is the Muslims worse enemy, it will kill them all, either by their hands or by ours.
Papa Ray
West Texas
USA
Mr. Papa Ray,
A quick question – could we operate at all in the Islamic world if every Muslim (and I mean every muslim) really were our enemy? I guess we could say up front that they all were, and then have quite a bit of fun as we arm Kurds and train the Shias and Sunnis of Iraq to fight efficiently. What is likely to be the blowback of that do you think?
And, in the worst case scenario (you are right and everyone whoever has prayed toward Mecca wants every man jack of us dead) is it in our interest to let them know that we know it, especially since right now a very large number of the victims of Muslim terrorists are killing other Muslims (just who do you think most of the car bombs in Bagdhad are killing?). Frankly, even granting your assumption that they all are our enemies, is it not in our best interest in fostering the belief among Muslims that the leopard can change its spots, that they can still be good Muslims and work with us? Because if you think about the alternative good and hard, you might realize that we are not just talking shit in one hand and hope in the other, but rather if you are “right” (or if Muslims come to believe your version is the right version) we are riding a tiger…
PS:
I think that our real cooperation with Kurds, Jordanians, Egyptians etc. points to the fact that there are Muslims who have changed over the centuries, just as Christians have changed. Do I think the Muslim world has a lot farther to go, and there are elements that present a real danger to us – yes on both questions. But even one of the severest critics of Islamism and someone who is very much NOT PC – Bernard Lewis has lots of very good things to say about Islam and Muslims. There is good there to, and to say that Islam is our enemy threatens to become a self-fullfilling prophecy.
I’ll grant your point David. I feel that Islam needs reforming to delete in it’s entirety the philosophy of jihad. BUT it will take the Muslims to reform themselves. We cannot do it. What we can do is kill the fanatical on a constant basis to let the entire world know we will not capitulate. Do I advocate throwing out the baby with the bathwater? No. Damn if I’m not realistic about it though. I’ve buried too many friends and heroic young Marines not to be so.
The biggest problem I see is ignorance. Keep the masses ignorant and they are easily controllable. This does not mean that our enemies are not sophisticated nor highly intelligent. The minions doing their bidding are though. Lying and manipulation have been the cornerstone of Islam since it’s beginning. Death is a commodity. You’ve got 2,000 years of history to overcome and frankly I do not know how that will be accomplished. I do know that adding PC addendums to our own ROE for appeasement purposes is a death knell of it’s own. There is one thing that is respected by all Muslims in that part of the world as evidenced by the history of the region and religion; stength. Strength is defined as those able and willing to use overwhelming force, death, and destruction to control and pacify. Period! Our form of compassion is looked on as weakness in that part of the world and it is ridiculous to allow our enemies to use our own UCMJ against us but that is exactly what we are doing. Constantly changing the rules of the game does more harm than good. I doubt very seriously if our form of democracy could ever be accepted as mainstream. Let alone our moral standards. Some mix will have to be achieved.
There is so much history backing up these assertions that it makes it pretty damned clear on how to proceed. Does this mean a scorched earth policy? Not even close but our ROE for OIF2 were closely suited to the type of fight we are in. To think we can ever change “world opinion” or stop the staged acts of our enemies for propaganda purposes is like farting in the wind. Ignorance prohibits us from ever being seen for what we truly are; a compassionate society and friend to freedom. To the point that we are willing to sacrifice our best and finest to secure freedom in a part of the world that historically cannot understand what personal freedom even means. Can it happen? Probably. Will it? Hopefully. Taking away the hammer and filing charges to appease does nothing but weaken us in our efforts though.
Wihtout Islam being reformed to eliminate jihad by it’s own Muslims there is NO chance what-so-ever. Just my two cents!
Prof Curp,
I read your article, and pretty much agreed with your assessments across the board. But I’m not sure I follow your comments. My command works with, exercises and trains with numerous Middle Eastern forces, and in some cases sincere and lasting friendships form between trainer and trainee. But we never mistake that for anything more. I can’t really name names, but in our “closest allies” the best we can usually do is a favorably disposed despot, a paramilitary force that envies our capabilities (and perhaps understands why we can do what we do, and why they can’t), and a populace that, at best, doesn’t openly hate us (mostly because if they did, their despot would send their paramilitary to arrest them). Where we have enemies in common, such as takfiri groups that want to kill their despots as well as Americans, they are glad to cooperate (that is, we provide them intel, and they make the takfiri go away). But it goes no farther than that. Does that mean the leopard changed its spots? No. As I’ve stated here, there are moderate muslims, but there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Does every muslim want us dead or subjected? No. But would the majority pile on us if we were wounded? You betcha. I don’t see the cooperation of any of the Islamic world as evidence that Islam has changed, merely that the temporal rulers of those nations know who butters their bread, and they want a piece of our overflowing largesse (jizya, anyone?).
Islam may yet change, but it won’t change as long it’s winning the jihad, and right now it is. Following Boumedienne, they are conquering Europe by the womb, and the battle for Europe is being lost even without a shot being fired. The Saudis are building wahabbi mosques all over the world, spending the money we pay for gas to coduct da’wa in the West. And the Shi’a are well on their way to being the newest nuclear power on the block, with a well-advertised desire to use those weapons. No, we’re not winning right now, so why should Islam change?
We can hope that Islam will change its spots, but hope is not a plan. Based on that history you so clearly outlined, we better be prepared for the fight of our lives.
Zane,
I don’t want to be Polyanna here. I also have deep doubts about Islam changing and think we might be seeing the opening rounds of an effort at Islamic Reformation which as likely as not will produce all the peace and tranquility that the Christian Reformation produced 500 years ago, but I also don’t buy is that Islam is evil through and through. Even Communism, which was much more thoroughly loathesome than Islam appealed to a real desire for social change and justice. Part of understanding our current and potential adversaries is understanding their strengths – Islam does give them strength because it appeals to good as well as base desires. Also, part of facilitating change is by making it clear that we are not fighting against Islam as such (even if we have real reservations about Islam’s reformability). They don’t need to be our truest friends in order for us to identify common interests. And the likliehood that many or maybe even most all of them would pile on is if we were down doesn’t surprise me – I think there are people in this country who would do the same, as well as among such “allies” as France or Germany.
The other thing of course is that you have to remember that the article was written for a religious journal. I’m a praise the Lord and pass the ammunition kind of guy – I believe that this-worldly power matters a very great deal in dealing with this-worldly evils. But in the article I’m not referring to hope as optimism – I’m referring to hope as a theological virtue. Making a clear-eyed assessment is Islam’s current pathologies or the many past misdeeds done in its name need not lead us to write off every spiritual impulse formed by Islam for most of the last 1400+ years. But while we want our ROE informed by realism, when we write in public (as opposed to analyze in private or discuss in small circles) creating the impression that we don’t have a scortched earth approach or contempt for the faith of people with whom we are working is important.
One other note – I’ve never been to the Middle East or had significant interatctions with Muslims, but I know some fairly unsquishy, non-liberal types who have, one of them who was an intel officer and he noted that a big cause of reserve of the locals towards many Americans, especially those operating in an official capacity, is how few such Americans are willing to talk about religion. He’s found that in his experience when he demonstrates (I’m going to use the “s” and “r” words) sensitivity and respect towards Islam and is willing to engage in serious religious conversations, that personal relations warm up quite a bit – though he also observed that Americans are constantly cautioned about ever discussing religion by our own higher ups. It is possible we might never have a close and friendly relationship with any Muslim country but if we start with the assumption of Papa Ray that Islam is simply an evil cult and speak and act openly as if it were, then we are in the fight of our lives for sure and a lot sooner than is liekly to be good for us. A bit of rhetorical caution can help sharpen analysis, not blunt it for now.
And one final side-note is that one place where I do respect Muslims is for their willingness to have children. If Europe is being conquered by a policy of lebenswomb, I would suggest that there is something wrong with a Europe that is wealthier than ever in its history but still has lots of Italian, Spanish, Dutch, French and British couples couples who regard marriage as optional and even 1 child as too much of a burden. Again, analyzing the strengths of our potential adversaries, lebenswomb suggests a people whose religion gives them cohesion and makes them willing to sacrifice. And if they are religiously fanatical for it, the secular European fanaticism that makes Europeans unwilling to give themselves, their families and their fellow-countrymen the gift of children is even more evil and self-destructive.
PS: To you Zane and all of the others (Papa Ray included?) who’ve served our country in the military on this blog – I don’t mean to come accross as cocky or dismissive – your observatiosn, caution and experience are very much appreciated. I’m just trying to form a picture which includes insights of the like you’ve had from your experience as well as other friends who’ve gotten a very different sense from their interactions with Muslims.
[...] Professor Curp has goodly gear, in comments to a previous post. [...]