Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
Cap’n,
Well, if it were me making up the budget, I’d give strong consideration to scrapping the Littoral Combat Ship, and buying a dozen or so of those nifty German-made U-boats that Israel is getting to replace them with.
I’d also start to think VERY seriously about scrapping the oncoming P-8 platform (basically a B-737 modified for ASW and open ocean patrol….go figure), and reopening the P-3 production line with Lockheed. Why in Heaven’s name the Navy went for the idea of using a 737 airframe for ASW is beyond me. I’ve talked with several fellows working on it and they figure that someone in Boeing must have an in with the Navy to get that idea approved.
As to bleeding money to the other services, welcome to the Navy under Jimmy Carter. My crew once had to cut a ferry flight from Lockheed back to NAS Brunswick short and RON several nights at Hill AFB, Utah, because the squadron ran out of gas money. Seems our funds were diverted to other squadrons deployed overseas, so we had to wait for the start of the new fiscal quarter before we could start the engines and come home.
We also were so cash-strapped in Patrol Wing Five, that we had to ration warshot and training torpedos for crew and squadron qualifications. I actually witnessed crew numbers (VP-10) being put into a hat, and the two winning crews having their numbers drawn out and being allowed to qualify for live warshot torpedo drops FOR THE ENTIRE SQUADRON, in order to be qualed for deployment.
This whole financial situation is very SNAFU. We ought to fund everything we actually NEED before we start parcelling out funds to other countries and especially those creeps at Turtle Bay.
But back to my first comment, the Nuke-Boyz need to realize that noocleah powah isn’t the end all submarine-wise. There are many excellent conventional designs that will do some things better than a Nuke Boat, and for far fewer dollars. Cadillacs are nice, but in the right situation, an Escort is just another Caddy, but with a $30,000 rebate:)
Respects,
AW1 Tim
Tim’s on the right track.
It only takes a couple ill-defined but pretty new construction projects to steal billions from other good, possibly less expensive, projects.
Termination costs or slowed production wreck any chance of killing old or bad decisions.
Where have all the leaders gone ?
The loss of the Dolphin won’t really make a difference to the operational Submarine force. It has been a “Test” platform all of it’s existance. With the war going it is just another casualty ground under the wheels of the massive burn rate of money. I am a submariner and yes our community as a whole get heart burn and the mention of “diesel boats”. When you absolutly need assets on station for an exetended period and the ability to get to and from station in a timely manner you can’t beat a nuke boat.
Tim
You are right on target. I really don’t understand the thinking that there are no nations with conventional forces (ie North Korea) that wish us harm, therefore the Navy and Air Force are no longer as vital.
That $50M for the Dolphin refit gives new meaning to the term “sunk costs”! Heh heh. MBA humor. Never mind.
On another, related note, I’d encourage everyone to look into S.2590, a Senate bill to require a publicly-searchable database of government expenditures. Just the ticket for exposing the kind of “buddy” programs that bleed money from more logical defense spending. The bill currently has a “secret hold” placed on it by an anonymous senator.
//Sorry for the semi-threadjack
I’m tired of people blaming the procurement bow wave on Clinton. The fault, dear Brutus, lies with ourselves. Every aircraft that is in procurement now, could have been procured 5 years ago at less cost. MMA, EA-18, E-2D, F-18F, and the Navy could do with out JSF. The EP-3 could have been gone by now if we had bought an electronic version of the 737 (Narrow minded P-3 flags are to blame for that……). The S-3 is gone long before it should have been, there is no carrier based ES capability because guys like Carlos Johnson and his boss made some very bad decisions.
And of course the need to find money to pay for operations has no effect I’m sure.
The Navy is its own worst enemy in the procurement game. Plus, this administration has not exactly been procurement friendly…………
Then there were Vern’s ideas………….
Don’t forget that rathole called the A-12 that so much of the treasury was poured down in the 80′s and early 90′s before it was off’d. That was a good chunk of Naval Aviation’s seed money now lost, that we would have been harvesting today.
-SJS
“value of diesel boats to a blue water Navy”
Gee Lex are we really a bluewater Navy anymore?
I’m gonna let you all “off light” this time and not pontificate as usual but it’s amazing how mant reasons there are for the Navy’s future being in jeopardy….
Everybody is, of course, right posting the above but in my mind it comes down to this: Tailhook decapitated Naval Aviations leadership in 92-93 with retirements and the continued budget constraints in the 90′s made things worse. Everyone in who is now a flag, or recently retired as one, has made a career out of cutting things. If you could see their fitreps I could probably document my theory. “Saved 50 million doing this or that” is common…
Let’s look at the CNOs. Jay Teflon Johnson? A Turkey driver who bought-in to the SuperHornet program and gave birth to “Black”, father of the present mess. Vern came next, and having a 30 year old MBA from Podunk U, jumped right in with both feet to continue the process using “Bidness Speak”. He bought right into the Brown Water littoral stuff as more important than the USN core missions, caved to UCMC and gave birth to NMCI…poor old Mike Mullen left holding the bag can now only come up with offering our folks for IA and coming up with Blue to Green for the Sailors (really a force shaping tool..)
I ain’t badmouthing here. Those are the legacies these men will carry..
In retrospect (MM QB, I know…) we boldly right-sized based on what we percieved as reality (world events & the budget), but we didn’t forsee 9-11 and OEF/OIF. Who could?
Let’s fix it. A “Sand Pebbles Navy” in the future won’t cut it.
B2
$18 million is chump change. If you have ever been on a Echelon 2 or 3 staff you know that. Calling that a savings is an insult to anyone hearing it….especially after throwing $50 mil at it.
We have spent $474 million on DTS, a travel program by the end of this FY, and it isn’t operational.
Oh Skippy. Don’t knock MMA, the P-8A radar systems are ahead of schedule and under budget. Not a bad start. Now, the ACS nightmare…..
$18 million sure does seem like almost nothing
when you’re dealing with a $125 billion budget.
I mean, I realise that pennies and nickels do add up, but…
Cdr Salamander,
I’ll go out on a limb again and say that I still cannot grasp the need for the P-8 program, at least as to why anyone thought a converted 737 platform would be useful to ASW and Long Range Patrol.
True, the P-8 is faster, but it would have a reduced loiter time compared to the P-3, and certainly doeas NOT have the low altitude performance the P-3 enjoys. The only way to extend the on station time is through refueling, and then you have to start looking at adding additional crew, etc.
What made the P-3 excellent in it’s job was that it was part of a multi-platform response to it’s varied missions. Sosus provided the day to day monitoring, and that was backed up for quick response by S-3 and the occasional Helo which could provide a closer handle on the target until the P-3 could arrive on station.
The ability to get low and rig a contact, image it as well as eyeball it, is a very nice thing to have. It’s a lot harder to do from above 10K with optics and flir/LLTV.
To be blunt, the P-8 ain’t worth the price, and it isn’t anywhere near as flexible as the P-3/S-3 platforms. Now that the S-3 is gone, I have no doubt that at some point, we will lose one or more vessels to a submarine. That little S-3 was an excellent system, and filled a niche that is quickly being lost by transferring the bulk of ASW ops to surface ships and submarines. Fleet protection got a lot harder with the loss of the S-3.
Yeah, I’m biased. I have time in P-3′s, S-3′s and LAMPS platforms. I loved them all, and I have yet to see anything either in inventory or projected that can do the job those birds did.
Like BadBob says, we run the risk of losing the blue-water effectiveness of our Navy, of becoming something akin to what the Soviets were: One-shot throwaway combatants designed to be a speedbump against an agressor.
The P-3 helped secure the Sea Lanes for us, by being able to be out there and to stay on station for a long time, and with it’s excellent sensors and data-link and secure comms, could provide actionable intel for the fleet, giving commanders more time and data with which to work.
I can’t see the P-8 filling those shoes, nor can I see DD(X) the Littoral Combat Ship, or any other projected platforms being part of a NAVY. What we will end up with is a handfull of world-class technical floating marvels that will awe systems engineers and a gullible press, but will be unable to combine to make 2 solid fists.
Respects,
AW1 Tim
Tim,
MMA out competed the LM P-3-like offering for a variety of reasons that are a matter of public record. Get over it. I did. However, I’m still concerned over bombay tradeoffs and low altitude flight/fuel considerations.
Those days of layered inner, middle an outer zone ASW were OBE by the middle 90′s (not that we should have..) when the littorals gained all the attention (same time we started calling ASW USW…). P-8 will make up some of the shortfall with highly advanced bb detection/localization systems but as you know, practice in doing ASW is the key. It’s a team sport (note that Lex)..If you’re over the beach doing ISR all the time you lose the art. I’m more concerned about that “utility” helo we’ve purchased and the complementary shipboard systems. They haven’t shown me much to date. Plus helos only cover the ground at about 100 kts..hard to repo..ask the bubbleheads about that.
The best weapon/tactic for the CVN and group (chuckle) will still be to run at top speed and stay out of harms way. Doesn’t sound right, does it? Would the Army accept that as a tactic? How about the Marines?
Best we can hope in the next 20 years is a capable green and reasonable brown water ASW capability. Of course that is only possible if we desist playing the games with our diminishing SSN fleet. I’ve got my fingers crossed.
Not enough stuff. Just like the strike arm of Naval Aviation. Times are tough. Too many bills due-too much time lost.
Ah Salamander, DTS..hell spawn of NMCI!
B2
Shipmate,
Oh, you’re correct. I’ll get over it, especially since I don’t have any say in the matter:) I just have some real worries about how we are becoming enamored of certain technologies and concepts. To my mind, the result is that we are designing missions for the technology, rather than systems and platforms to accomplish our missions.
We are also up to our eyeballs in designers and engineers all crawling over themselves to show off the latest “golly gee!/ gee whiz!” technology, each one of them clamouring to slurp at the public trough. It’s of no little concern that we lose sight of the core mission(s) of the fleet in the rush to outclass everyone else.
Now, I’m certainly no Luddite. Nosiree. However, it just seems to me that we ought to be spending more time defining the threats and the missions and then shopping for what we need to accomplish them than our current (seemingly) willy-nilly shopping spree.
Ah well. I’m just an old Cold-Warrior ASW type. But I read. And I pay taxes.
Respects,
AW1 Tim
CAPT Lex/Tim,
Pretty much agree with most of what you gents posted here. However, I disagree that the Navy would be better off by building more, supposedly cheaper diesel submarines. While I agree that diesels are cheaper to build than nukes, they are also dramatically less capable than nukes. The only fear an Iranian diesel boat has is a US nuclear submarine. There is a large gap in capability between diesels and nukes everywhere in the world. I will grant you once the diesel has been localized to a limited area, air assets are perfectly capable of taking it out, and probably should take it out. However, without some localization to a certain limited area, you gents will have a most difficult time finding it. The price can be loss of the carrier and the air wing.
Additionally, an American diesel would have to be built with American technology, and that raises the price tag greatly if you want it to be able to compete with the newest British or Australian or Japanese diesels. They will be considerably more expensive than a German 209 or French Agoste to build and to operate.
While I agree the Navy can ill afford to lose more funding, it is the right thing to do right now. We are not on the cutting edge of the War on Terror. The trick will be to maintain enough of an edge to stand up to the Chinese and the 3rd world threats which are likely to materialize in the next 5-10 years. We will be hard pressed to be as good as we once were. But hopefully, we won’t regress to Jimmy Carter’s Navy, where submarines, ships, carriers and planes all went OOC for lack of spare parts, maintenance was forgotten, hazardous material conditions were allowed to fester, and OPTEMPO went through the roof.
We can only get so much smarter or better at what we do without more Men and money. But the American Congress will allow us no more than the minimum we are getting. The Admirals’ jobs are to know when to say enough is enough, and when to put their stars on the table and walk out in protest. I don’t know if they have the guts to do so when they are so close to the problems sometimes. It worries me.
But there is no alternative without winning the worlds’ largest lottery. Congress gets its way, and the squeaky wheel gets, and deserves, the grease.
The job is hard. The way is long. The burden is heavy.
If it was easy, the Girl Scouts would be asked to do it.
Press on, gents. Know when to say enough.
Subsunk
Only naval officers would hurl poetry at each other. The army lawyers are pulling rank and the swabs are busy crafting literary allusions. It makes me want to jump on Skippy.
Bloggers, Americans and countrymen, lend me your eyes. Skippy says the every aircraft that is in procurement now, could have been procured 5 years ago at less cost. Three times did Skippy not buy the MMA, EA-18, E-2D or the F-18F, yet Skippy says they could have been bought cheaper, and Skippy is an honorable man. Skippy says there is no carrier based ES capability, the Bear was brought to his knees, but Skippy says there is no ES capability and Skippy is an honorable man.
I could go on, but I really agree with S.San.
Subsunk,
Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big Nuke fan…. spent a lot of time chasing holes around the ocean, as it were. My comment regarding getting some of the German Diesel boats was to augment, not replace Nuke Subs. I personally think that the U-boat design could do most, if not all the mission requirements that the Littoral Combat Ship is supposed to do, and with a lot more stealthiness to boot. Or to U-Boot, as it were:)
Yeah, we need some Flags to stand up and say “wait a minute, there” and I’m also not too sure we have enough to make a difference these days. So many are so cozey with the Politicos who have the checkbooks, and also with the Industry types who’d sure like to have a few token retired flags to decorate their corporate resumes…..
There are certainly some damned fine and responsible officers out there. But I do feel we are approaching a crossroads where we’ll have to make a choice about whether we become a fleet responsible to the people or to corporate America. Recent dustups at Annapolis have shown the inroads that politics and the PC crowd have made into the Academy. I’m worried we are replacing marlinspike seamanship and basic gunnery with Jag and procurement courses.
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent here. I certainly have some personal bias regarding platforms and procurement, but I’m always willing to listen and learn. That’s the first step towards success in any field.
Respects to all,
AW1 Tim
B2 and I are in agreement here. But he said it better than I could. Especially about the current incumbent of FFC……………
Tim,
re “?
Tim,
re ““golly gee!/ gee whiz!” technology, each one of them clamouring to slurp at the public trough”
It is a trough somewhat but the requirements and systems are already chosen for the most part. No A-12 here. Not much on aircraft development except integration…and thats tough enough!
Re taxes and Cold War. Same same but I’ve evolved somewhat. (not on taxes!)
B2
Tim,
Agree with your calls and your thoughts. It would be nice to have cheap diesels to handle some of the items you might not need a nuke for, but the problem is getting them there. You still need to cover the whole ocean, and the nukes just get there faster, stay longer, and can do more. We’d have to build too many diesels to cover the load to make it cheap.
I’ll stay out of the Littoral Ship discussion. Not my lane. But I think you gents here all have a pretty good handle on what does and doesn’t make sense. The problem is that even in WWII, when the full weight of American corporate might supported the military construction schedules, there still wasn’t enough to go around. There never is.
So hard choices have to be made. And just like Iraq, Afghanistan, and all wars haven’t gone perfectly, fighting a Navy war against China and N Korea won’t either. Mistakes will be made. Lives will be lost unnecessarily. And all because we don’t have a crystal ball. Imagine that.
But I don’t feel anyone actually wakes up in the morning, looks at themselves in the mirror and says, “I’m going to do my best to buy the wrong stuff or too little stuff for the Navy to do its job.”
Good luck to all of us, and God save the US Navy.
Subsunk