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Dry and getting dryerUnlike the Brits, and other, more civilized services, ours is a “dry navy” while at sea – no drinking. Our tee-totaling Secretary of the Navy Josephus Daniels shut down the officer’s wine messes in 1914, and from that point on it’s been bottles over the side and “farewell to all that.” We even named a ship after him, if you can believe it. Coincidentally or not, it’s by no means unheard of for people who are apparently trying to make up for lost time while at sea to get themselves in trouble their first night ashore by engaging in excessively hard partying. These incidents have occasionally been a source of embarrassment to the service, and sometimes also to the country. It’s been a subject of some discussion over the years whether it wouldn’t make more sense to serve a couple beers per night to those who choose to drink, are of legal age and who aren’t going to be on watch afterwards. That’s the way the Royal Navy treats its folks and taken as a whole, they seem to behave themselves rather well once ashore. Being able to have a beer at the end of the work shift undoubtedly takes some of the glamor and novelty out of it while also serving to keep the steam valve open a trickle. But for us, it’s all just talk at the wardroom table. Apart from the monotony-breaking two beers served at solitary “Beer Days” to sailors on ships that have been on the line for more than 45 days at a time, the service stays dry until the service goes ashore. At which point some number among them will probably get very wet indeed. There’s a reason why no one likes to stand the quarterdeck watch on the first night in port. You: But what’s all that got to do with the Naval Academy, Lex? Me: I was just getting to that, gentle reader. From the Baltimore Sun:
It’s never been a mid-atlantic UT-Austin, but I have to admit that this seems a bit medieval to this old head. The place was always a pressure cooker, and some of us made it through the week saved only by thoughts of the upcoming weekend and a chance to blow off a little steam at Timmy’s with pitchers of cheap beer and slices of bad pizza. We couldn’t have cars until we were seniors, so there was no concern about drunk driving. Being a sort of college, and the mids being of college age, some folks over-did, but that seemed to me a part of growing up, discovering limits, and it was at least a very controlled environment. Some of them really over-did, and ended up getting to meet the Commandant – in person! Although I had the opportunity to meet the man a couple of times, and earn two of his Black “N’s”, neither one of them were alchohol related. But a lot of the folks I worked off my punishments with got there the old fashioned way. And at least back then, no one had to administer random Breathalyzers to 21-year olds to figure out who was over the line. You could sort of tell. I know the administration has got to be fed up with all of these incidents they’ve been having, and all of the hideously bad press that goes with them. I’m just not sure that this is the right answer since I’m very much afraid this will only serve to kick the can down the road. Young mids become young ensigns and second lieutenants, who will go out on their own in new towns to discover new things. Some of them are now going to discover in an uncontrolled environment just what it means to drink too much. Not all of them are going to make it through the discovery process and they might take others with them. That’ll be bad press too. I suppose the fact that the country respects and trusts the military as an institution is a part of the reason why we hold even our youngest midshipmen to a much higher expectation set, at least as compared to their peers in colleges and universities across the country. But unless that’s to be a one-way obligation – one in other words, only flowing up from the mids to the school – in return we ought to give a little “special trust and confidence” back to them. Or we should at least until individuals prove to us that our confidence has been misplaced, at which time those individuals get punished. It seems to me that, just as you can’t “inspect” quality into an organization, neither can you “Breathalyze” your way to integrity and excellence. You get from people what you expect of them. If we play cops, we should not be surprised if they in turn play robbers. 48 comments to Dry and getting dryer |
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Only read the quote as I’ve just got home from welcoming a mate back from Norway.
This means you come home on a Saturday night, get breathoed, blow .08 (or more if you’re like me at 20) and cop a punishment? Even if you’re not driving, just wandering home…
Oh, sorry, 21, US and all.
Anyway, to me this smacks of being written by a bunch of people with their heads in the clouds.
When .08 or .10 is considered legally intoxicated in all the states of the Union, .15 probably means that they’ve had a bit much to drink.
As for using the Breathalyzer – in this day and age you’d better have an objective witness to the charges, and that is definitely it.
No reason why someone who is simply more alcohol tolerant (due to frequent use) should skate with a .20 when someone on their first boozer after 21 with a .16 gets reamed.
Ah, the days of 2 pints o’grog a day or a gallon of beer doled out (as a matter of law) to everyone before the mast…
Back then Naval Officers were made of sterner stuff..they don’t cave like the present super does to the likes of the “troll” and her cohort:
http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/07-04/women2.jpg
B2
Several of my classmates, aviators of the best sort, who live in the area, report that the current supe is not the kind of guy you would have on your wing in combat. Anyone who has seen the elephant knows exactly what that means…
SGT Jeff-
Yeah, no driving at .15 but if you reckon your average 20yo hasn’t been there on a regular basis you’re mad.
IMO this policy is mad, prohibition doesn’t work. Hell, you’ve got a captive audience at your Naval Academy, why not try and introduce alcohol with a more mature approach.
Lex – did you edit your post? I missed the last bit either way.
I totally agree. If getting done with any BAC reading is going to screw you you may as well get completely hammered.
This just seems stupid to me, fly our 100 million dollar jets, dock a ship worth a billion or so. Can’t trust you with a beer though.
I did a bit. Took out a bit of uncharacterstic, unfair (and frankly unprofessional) snark, added a bit more depth to the close. I don’t often do that, but this is a special case, and the school is close to my heart.
As are, it’s fair to say, the midshipmen.
What concerns me is that midshipmen live under an honor code. Forcing them to undergo random breathalyzers says you think they’re liars. That’s a step in the wrong direction.
Lex-
Agreed with you snark completely actually.
The US seems to have a puritanical streak when it comes to booze.
Oh well, cheers to coalitions, as a USAF mate said, find the Aussies and you’ll find the beer.
*your snark.
And yes, the Brits are just as likely to have stashed a case or two…
Exactly so, Doctor – and welcome to our humble lodgings by the way, honored by your presence.
We give the mids urinalysis, but then so also do we test everyone else from newest recruit to CNO. This new thing is unique to the Academy so far as I can tell, and seems almost certain to have consequences contrary to those intended further down the road.
There’s nothing more important to an officer than his integrity, but if you treat an officer candidate as a liar, you shouldn’t be surprised when he ends up telling you stories, or if that ends up being a difficult habit to break.
Speaking as a civilian, we had a bar on campus at my college (beer and wine only). Sounded so over the top wrong back in the day, but it ensured none of us would be driving and it gave the school some control over the situation – it was staffed with volunteers from the teaching staff. No breathalyzers which does smack of a lack of trust. If we are going to send these men and women into harm’s way, the trust has to start EARLY.
Besides, if we didn’t have the on campus bar, we’d have just gone underground with the drinking (which happened in any case).
More Mickey Mouse BS.
Treat them like children and they’ll act like children. Treat them like criminals and then what?
Seems the Nannies have taken over the Naval Academy. For shame. The Nannies don’t seem to grasp the forbidden fruit concept. I expect expulsions at the NA to rise dramatically. Good people will be lost from the Naval service because of this. And the Nannies will wonder why.
Shipmates,
Well, here’s my unasked for 2-cent’s worth regarding the Naval Academy. I would cease all intake for one year. After this year’s incoming class graduates, there would be NO students for one entire year. I’d clean house, top to bottom.
Curricullum would be changed to enhance graduating combat officers. Seamanship, Marksmanship, Small unit tactics for shore parties, laws of warfare, signals, weapon system capabilities, radar ranges and effectiveness, navigation, meteorology, intros to ASW, AAW, and surface warfare, the pentathalon and football. In short, if it doesn’t have anything to do with taking a ship into harm’s way or leading a party of men against an enemy, or preparing your mind and body for the same, then it isn’t being taught.
The mission of the Naval Academy ought to be that of graduating officers who will be combat leaders. If you want a degree in Engineering, or History, or Fine Arts or Poli-Sci, then go elsewhere, and join the NROTC. The Naval Academy ought to confer one degree only, a Bachelor’s of Naval Warfare.
I am fed up with the decks of the NA, an institution that my tax dollars help to fund, being awash with scandal and political feces. It needs a serious field day, and I’d love to be there to direct the clean-up.
Am I angry? You bet. That fine old dame represents MY Navy too, and my father’s Navy and my cousin and uncle’s Navy. But it is also quite reflective of the PC rot that is settling into all facets of the Navy, especially in procurement and new construction. In the fleet, you have officers and men looking over there shoulders for a hovering JAG officer every time they need to make a decision. They hesitate and concern themselves with FITREPS and EVALS rather than with the needs of the mission and the ship and their shipmates.
This environment, if left unchecked, will eventually lead to a disaster at sea, probably in combat, where lives and perhaps even vessels will be lost because someone was more concerned with what the political and/or carreer costs might be rather than the military results.
It results in time wasted, man hours and material being spent addressing social issues and keeping a veneer of PC waxed over top of the command instead of those same resources being spent on warfighting training, on seamanship and ship-keeping skills.
Anyway, sorry for the rant, but this cr*p touches a nerves with me. I had urged my oldest daughter to consider the Naval Academy, and even obtained all the materials for application through my Senator. Now, I’m happy she isn’t there, and I’d be hesitant to reccomend a carreer as a Naval Officer for her, given the current state of PC’ness in the fleet.
Respects,
AW1 Tim
Also,
Lex is right in that “this will only serve to kick the can down the road.”
Just look at incidents that have happened at civilian college campuses. Junior goes to college having been brought up in a zero tolerance environment were the fruit has always been forbidden. Suddenly, at college the fruit is available and there are no limits and no one to teach moderation. Junior gorges himself and doesn’t know enough to stop. Next, we read about junior getting so plastered that he fell to his death off the fourth floor balcony of the dorm. And the Nannies wonder why.
Picture this with “young ensigns and second lieutenants, who will go out on their own in new towns to discover new things.”
The new alcohol policy as announced by the NA is reflective of broader low-tolerence measures being initiated service-wide. In recent weeks the Navy Times has been full of this news.
That being said, something smell fouls where, “Severn joins the tide.” Midshipman Owens, the former Navy QB, is court martialed for Rape of another Middie. The judge ridicules the Navy’s case, the defendant is acquitted of the most serious charge, but found guilty of minor UCMJ offenses. The jury recommends no punishment.
More recently, Lt Bryan Black, an instructor at the academy, was accused of using “salty” language in the presence of midshipmen, and is threatened with a special court martial. The case ends with an Admiral’s Mast in which non-judicial punishment is awarded.
In both cases, the names of the accused appeared in newspapers across the land, destroying their reputations and certainly their careers. For what says I??
The Navy appears confused and gives the impression of running scared..how do you spell, “TAILHOOK WITCH HUNT”?
Certainly someone can decide, based on facts, what is a crime and what isn’t? Hang the guilty, but don’t act capreciously. What is the USNA afraid of?
Shipmate,
the case of Lt Black is even more egregious, to my mind, because the complaint was not lodged by the female middies around him, but by a female officer who was a member of his own department at the NA. The special courts-martial broght out the fact(s) that the good Lt had apologised to the female middies for his language, and that they and he considered the matter closed. The female officer heard of the incident, started her own investigation without informing her superiors, and then presented this demanding that charges be brought.
No one in the faculty seemed to question why one department member might want to damage another’s reputation, especially when a department head position might be soon opening up.
Yeah, we’re training our officers well. Unfortunately, we’re training them to play Byzantine Court instead of training them to be leaders. Leadership is ALWAYS learned by example, and these are some p*ss poor examples coming downstream for the young middies to chew on and digest. They’ll be getting a Bachelor’s in CYA.
respects,
AW1 Tim
I’m sorry, I’m just a dumb civilian. But isn’t there a desk at the Naval Academy where theres a desk plaque that says, “The buck stops here”? Did someone neuter this officer before he took command of the Academy? What is his take on the situation of the future of his and our Navy?
And maybe what’s also needed is someone who has seen the elephant, stood watches in the North Atlantic in winter, cracked track on a tank, or waded across a beach to be SecDef. I’m not besmirching Rummy, I just think the #2 man in the chain of command ought to know what “duty, honor, country” is all about.
AW1, to a point, I agree with you. But the best warriors (rather, quite a few of them) have also been fair scholars. I have no problem with them being warriors of the first water. I just think they’d be better warriors if they knew Ovid from ova.
Byron,
I agree with the concept of “an Officer & a Gentleman” and a well-read Gentleman is much to be preferred. There is no reason that the training of the warrior cannot include the Illiad, Aeniad, Procopius, Marcus Aurellius, Caesar, the story of Xenophon, Herodotus, tacitus, et al. It’s just sad to see that the classical education seems more to be weighted towards Machiavelli and Seutonius than Clauswitz and Joshua Chamberlain. But I digress…..)
Respects,
AW1 Tim
As a graduate of said institution I am disgusted at all of the aforementioned PC BS. To me, it all points to a lack of leadership that starts at the Supe. Creative & disciplined leadership can and will solve this issue. As mentioned above treating them like criminals will only cause them to start acting like criminals. These knee jerk over reactions also set a horrible example that will only be copied in the fleet by this future generation of officers.
This “PC” business runs a long way back. It started in the ’80’s. Not long before I got out, the military started piss testing. This was not random. It was 100% of officers and enlisted. What kind of insanity led to trusting a man to command a Squadron of F-4’s, and then required him to piss in a cup in front of a Corporal? Once the government decided they didn’t trust anyone, it was the slippery slope to where we are today. Now it’s alcohol. Tabacco is coming, I guarantee. Started with Nancy Reagan’s “Just say No”.
So it caught a few guys. Good Marines, most of them. Ruined their careers, BCDs for NCOs and above. It wasn’t right then, and this isn’t right now. But one leads directly to the other. And this is going to ruin some futures, too.
We’re not immune here, either. I definitely toned down, skipped great sea stories, and deliberately didn’t write about the behavior I witnessed in the Philippines. Does anyone remember the lines at sick bay every morning? It wasn’t for sunburn. We were ordered to go, every swinging ****, and get swabbed. The Navy ran the clinic out in town, and issued the papers to the girls that they needed to work in the clubs. Think that would happen today?
We need hard men, ready to make some hard decisions. We’re training a PC military, and it’s going to get a lot of people killed before it’s over.
Semper Fi,
ASM826
We have already seen the result of a Navy where the “Leadership” was more interested in 1)Their careers, 2)political correctness, 3)Not pissing off a few loud and shrill congresswomen.
It happened in 1991, remember?
A certain female admiral’s aide helo pilot got her legs shaved at Tailhook IN UNIFORM and then wrote “You made me see god” on Ghandi’s poster. Three or four dumb asses committed acts unbecoming (and, I’m sure, in violation of Nevada’s rules concerning assault) but instead of investigating it like the crime it was, we put the keystone cops (NIS) in charge of the investigation. Seeing as how they couldn’t find their asses with both hands, they decided we were ALL guilty, then they gave the guys who perpetrated most of the crimes immunity and trashed careers for such heinous crimes as ass biting and mooning fellow officers.
During that time we were being led by men who got where they were not by being warriors, but instead by being yes men.
Guess the guys who said yes to the yes men of the 90’s are in power at USNA now…
Sheesh.
Its clear they did not think this one all the way through. I don’t understand what the big deal is about a .15 if you are not driving and just minding your own business. That’s just what my old Skipper used to call the responsible abuse of alchohol.
Its clear they did not think this through. Because those that they refer for “counseling” will now have the stigma of having that in their medical record. When its already proven that most people out grow this type of drinking as they get older. They’ll be put in the company of folks who are REALLT screwed up and then the military will wonder why they became screwed up in the head. And they will never be able to get rid of the albatross that was placed around their neck, by being identified as problem drinker. When in reality is the Academy that has the problem.
Its not suprising though. This is the kind of thing the treatment mafia encourages so that it can entrap more victims into the cult that is AA……………Statistically it is proven that 75% of people can recover on their own.
Tim, it’s odd that you mention Chamberlain. A man steeped in the classics, who had never even thought of war till one came to him, who ended up being a warrior leader. It’s always amazed me that Chamberlain could be so good at tactics and more importantly, leadership, without ever having been “professionally” trained in the martial arts.
Makes one wonder, doesn’t it?
Byron,
One thing to remember about Chamberlain is that much of the history of his warrior prowess was written by…Chamberlain. Not that he didn’t do good work, but I’m just not sure he’s quite the warrior that history puts him up to be.
And this post isn’t just sour grapes ’cause I live in Virgina!
Nose
As a recent graduate of the class of 2006, a former company commander, and one being responsible for the enforcement and education regarding policies such as this, the typical answer to “why do we have to enforce this and why is it happening” is usually vague and unspecific. The commandant and staff on many occassions seem to impress the idea that the smallest of offenses should not be tolerated from midshipmen at the academy because as public figures we are responsible for the image the Navy tries to maintain in the Annapolis/DC/NoVa area. Many times I have sat through speaches, Commander calls, and Commandant calls being told how the Naval Academy is responsible for maintaining good standing with our “civilian controllers” (harkening back to the constitution for who our “boss” is).
Although I did what was asked of me at the time, realistically because I had no choice otherwise, I couldn’t help but wonder why it was that young people aged 17-25 where responsible for the image of the United States Navy in one of the most gossipy Navy towns in the country.
By no means do I excuse misconduct as the folly of the young. I think that the conduct system should and does effectively remediate people for their wrongdoings, however, when the superintendant and every officer working underneath him is using the conduct system as the sole justification for why we’re “doing something about the ‘problem’ ” it makes me feel like the leadership simply refuses to come to bat for the mids. I think an example would work best here:
Midn X goes out downtown with his friends for his 21st, gets COMPLETELY hammered, unable to even walk, screaming out obsceneties in the streets, stripping off parts of his uniform as he walks back through the gates in front of hundreds of horrified civilian onlookers. The guards stop him, refer him to medical for a breathalyzer, he is processed that night by the OOW into the system for conduct unbecoming, an alcohol related offense, and failure to use good judgement. His friends are entered into the system for ______ (fill in the blank with the appropriate offense).
The academy would view this as bad PR and try to use the punishment they enforce on Midn X as an example of the evils of drinking. They’d send Midn X to counseling one or two times a week to discuss why he feels the need to binge drink when he drinks, why he feels excess and abstinence are his only options, and put him in such a position as to feel like he has a serious problem when in reality he probably got force fed enough shots to kill a rhino and had no idea what was going on for 90% of the night.
In the aftermath, do you think Midn X is a better person for the actions of the academy? I would tend to think no….he’ll probably never drink like that again because of fear, rather than an understanding that his excess was unreasonable and that his own personal pride is at stake when he turns into Frank the Tank while in uniform. This fear in turn will not allow him to effectively council his sailors or marines, he’ll say things like “don’t drink guys, the man will get you” instead of “don’t drink to excess….it’s not responsible behavior as a citizen.” This breeds cynicism, this in turn undermines authority, in turn propogates the problem.
The Naval Academy leadership needs to take a few PR lumps on the head when people like Midn X go out and fall down, then turn around and acknowledge that in reality it was okay for him to do so because he probably learned a more valuable lesson from compassionate understanding in that situation than by being guillotined by the conduct system.
~Ens Tim
Tim, I don’t want to pay tax dollars for some warfare major. GW and Georgetown university are for stuff like that- at the masters level. I want engineering majors..that’s right-140 credits of real hard sh+t backed up by naval science, history and tradition. That’s what it was about 40 years ago and 100 years ago.
Take a load like that and you won’t be gittin in trouble.
Now I come to my regular diatribe on leadership. Chicken-s*+t rules and more political CMs aren’t going to hack it. Dismiss perpetrators, or if they have 2 years time left, enlist in the service of your choice for 3 years or pay it back. Putting some REAL leadership on a problem is hard on the leader because when you squash crap sometimes you get some on ya.
That’s where Nose’s ID is right on, on this subject. This zero-defect, no mistake, Lex law of thermodynamics world and remedies aren’t working and the whole mess ain’t honorable. Add a big dose of PC, proximity to DC and a military school trying to compete in Div I athletics and you’re trolling for trouble! Maybe we ought to move the place to rural N.C. or the Oregon coast..Just listen to what the Ensign has to say above- pure pragmatism more akin to a law student than a Naval Officer.
I got more leadership training in 4 months from SSGT. Penn, USMC of the “birth control glasses and smoky the bear hat fame” than what these kids at Canoe U get in four. It ain’t cost effective I tell ya.
Nose- 30 years later and I still can’t see what’s really bad about a little leg shaving, of course, I’m a dinosaur….
B2
re: This zero-defect, no mistake, Lex law of thermodynamics world and remedies aren?
Two of the most mature, responsible men I’ve ever known were thrown out of the Boatschool for conduct infractions back in the day. Served their remaining time as enlisted in the Fleet. Both agreed getting kicked out was the wake-up call of their lives. Both bitterly regret their behavior, but accepted as just the decision to release them.
Today, 30 years on, they are some of the finest public servants I’ve ever met in state government, examples of stoic integrity.
A harsh remedy was given, but the lesson was learned.
Took awhile to find some time to read this post, but it is interesting to read what you have to say. It is pretty much what most mids here are saying.
Everyone is waiting for alot of people to get in trouble. There have definitely been cases where 2/c or firsties in my co. would have been in big trouble had we been breathalyzed that night. One of my friend’s companies had one the other night… at 2345 – before the most of the firsties were back, I imagine.
We’ll have to wait and see how it goes, but like I said, alot of people are waiting for alot of people to get into alot of trouble.
On another interesting note, we’ve heard the ADM of PACCOM or some pacific command is trying to do the same for the pacific fleet (or at least parts of it, depending on how high the command is of course) and apparently (surprise!) everyone is up in arms about it.
My Liege,
I only used your handle so the folks would remember the axiom- when the “heat is on the other guy” (which was around long before you heard of it)..no intention to lump your clear and rational observations in with the other ineffective remedies. Bad choice on my part to even include it with the other two as a matter o’fact.
You know when these 2 fingers start pecking anything can happen! Unintended consequences- please lower your hackles sir; I ain’t swordfighting you I’d choose pistols!
More: Re the academy. Somebody said something above re the midshipman being looked to for opinions on miltary affairs and even interviewed by the press for their opinions…
This is one of the problem methinks. While your average mid is certainly an intelligent, highly qualified individual, NONE really knows much about operations, policy, combat, strategy or even life for that matter (esp re booze). While on AD I often resented watching midshipmen being interviewed and holding forth on ranges of topics they knew nothing about from a practical standpoint. The reporters looking for comment from military folks would be best advised to drive to Norfolk, Ft. Bragg or Camp Lejeune for comment on those topics and leave the students alone. If I was in the leadership at the NA, I would look at controlling that aspect more than what this discussion is all about. However, I don’t think that is going to happen anytime soon because this whole group from top to bottom there, believe all the hype about themselves….
B2
B2…I can’t help but smell this rank resentment coming from your writing. If you think that the naval academy should more closely resemble C-school for enlisted or should be a “military only” approach to a 4 year undergraduate education, I think you are misinterpretting the role of an officer in the military. The naval academy represents a very small portion of the commissioned officers in the fleet. The majority of officers come from enlisted commissioning sources and ROTC, neither of which are readily able to provide a 4 year, navy-only curriculum. ROTC units at 4 year colleges would disappear if they required people to major only in “steam propulsion systems” or “war fighting for the 21st century.” It is by necessity that civilian colleges with ROTC units allow english and history majors to be commissioned, so in that line of thinking, it only makes sense for USNA to do the same, lest we breed an even more significant disparity between those being commissioned from USNA and those being commissioned from ROTC. As for OCS and seaman to admiral for example, those programs seem to be less likely to sustain a “naval/military studies-only” undergraduate degree. Most OCS candidates didn’t even consider military service when they got their bachelors’ degrees, much less plan on studying a military specific topic. So then they show up to OCS with plans to earn a commission and now are expected to compete performance-wise as a J.O. with a Naval Academy graduate who has a 4 year military-only course of study under his or her belt? It would make OCS obsolete in a matter of speaking…
I don’t think the standard of excellence is set too high for USNA graduates, however, I think the majority of people who have little or no direct experience with midshipmen or recent graduates (who inevitably will lack fleet experience) put undue expectations on them. Just because someone went to the academy does not make them any more godlike in their decision making ability, nor does it entitle the media and general public to expect more from them than they would from the general Navy population. When Naval Academy graduates become shining pillars of excellence, it’s nice, however, every commissioning source has its good and bad apples.
ENS Tim, someday you’re going to hear an ensign say, “In my experience,” and have an involuntary shudder.
B2 knows the Navy, pard. He was flying strike aircraft off carrier decks before I was shaving, and I reckon I was doing it before you were wearing long pants.
Man’s got a right to express his opinion on commissioning sources, and get a respectful treatment. Don’t always agree with him myself, but at least he’s earned that.
Roger that, I understand and respect everyone here; however, I find(found) it unfortunate to be labeled more as a pragmatic law student than a naval officer, when the latter is exactly what I consider myself.
#34 Loosely Translated:
“He’s got more time on a saltwater crapper than you’ve got in the navy.”
or my favorite
“He’s got more time between the 2 and 3 wire than you have time at sea.”
Nose
I like the last few comments. Like was once said to me, “I was standng SDO before you were born. Now shut up and make the coffee!”
However we to get to the meat of this, its a lawsuit waiting to happen. The ACLU should be licking their chops on this one waiting to take the first case to court. The Academy thinks its got PR problems now, wait till these chickens come home to roost.
Example #1
Designated driver brings his drunken buddies home. DD has a BAC of 0.0. Roomie in the car has a BAC of .14. Does the DD get nailed for not cutting him off earlier? Even though they did EXACTLY what every AFN commercial has told our Sailors to do. What about the issues of no violation of the Maryland motor vehicle code? Lawsuit waiting to happen.
Example #2
Midn X comes back, gets nailed, blows a BAC of .18. Gets referred to SARP. Refuses to sign the consent to treatment form when asked because he knows he does not have a problem, just a zest for life. Is told by the quacks in the circular logic that only exists within the world of substance abuse treatement,that he is in denial, and that his sticking up for himself is proof of that. Threatened with expulsion, he signs and is forced to turn his life over to a higher power and a sponsor who is a loon. Voluntary consent? I don’t thinks so and neither do 4 State Supreme Courts that I can think of. (US Supreme Court let the rulings overturning the convictions stand by the way).
Example #3
Since the Navy’s treatment program demands that you use a certain program that is religious based, subject named MIDN’s first amendment rights have been violated. ACLU lawyer has a field day with this, pointing out that here too the US Supreme Court has upheld that one cannot be forced into a program that violates his rights to freedom of religion and association.
That’s why rules have focused on actual conduct breeches vice the alcohol comsumption. Because by trying to enforce rules like this one, you enter a very grey legal world…and for what? To enforce a stupid rule to begin with?
These morons need to wake up and smell the coffee. This creates more problems than it solves.
ENS Tim,
You are an officer trainee. You will learn your craft over time. It cannot be taught at the academy, any academy.
Re the law student analogy, well… I didn’t mean to offend, only point out the training you did receive at the school. You are, after all, a product of the modern academy.
This doesn’t mean you can’t have a voice or your ideas aren’t worthy of discussion. It simply means, IMO, you don’t know sh*t….yet. I didn’t know squat at your stage and neither did any of us that become officers of the line…
1st of all ENS, re cirriculum, I was responding up above to AW1 Tim’s suggestion for a miltary major at the academy. I was simply pointing out my view that the academy cirriculm should more approach that of the days that produced the Naval leaders of WWII. All you could major in then was a BS in some type of engineering- no liberal arts. 140 credits. Busy minds et all. Get it?
I would submit that the Naval Academy SHOULD produce a more professional officer at over 150K per year, but the fact is that is necessarily NOT the case. Cost vs benefit is the final analysis ENS. IMO, tradition has nothing to do with it if the product doesn’t show a significant difference in “quality” for the cost.
Yes, I am a retired officer and aviator but I also am a graduate of AOCS in Pensacola (olden days). As you can guess,I walked in off the street into a recruiting office looking for adventure. I was trained for a very short period of time by Marine E-6 and above. I was also ‘expendable’ as a reserve officer until winning augmentation. At the time, academy grads automatically were designated regular Navy. Sure, some Canoe grads were sorta arrogant but it all came out in the wash of competition for squadron jobs, flight lead and ‘chicks’ (HA) at the club. After entering the fleet, I subsequently competed professionally against many Naval Academy graduates in the fitrep wars. In the final tally I can state that I won MORE than I lost. How can all this be? Think about it.
Look I recognize things have changed. Regardless of all the talk you may have heard about the evils of the old ways, there is much to be said for how hard academically & militarily it was 40 or a hundred years ago.
BTW re ‘rank resentment’: does that mean my resentment at the ongoing soap opera at the N.A. “stinks” ? I’ll stop being rank when the place stops embarrassing me.
Nose/Lex- thanks for the top cover but I’m glad to see the young’un fighting back from what he perceives as my rank (phhew) “injustice” to his alma mater. Shows some spunk- he’ll learn OK.
r/B2
…ahhh, the lessons i learned as a plebe, having to “fireman’s carry” my asst squad leader yearling back up the hill from Ike Hall.
and he didn’t turn out to be such a bad leader after all.
B2,
Intent was not to provide cover, as I thought it was pretty much a civil discourse. I was just, in true ready room fashion, piling on!
The motto in my first RR was “If the pipper ain’t on a squadronmate, some innocent civilian might get hurt! We learned fast!”
Nose
Shipmates,
Just to add to the frecas…..
What I really see is the Academy being supervised by John Calvin, with all the “Thou shalt nots!” being issued. Yeah, there needs to be rules, but what is going to be the long-term effect on such things as squadron keggers?
There are memories that come from such things that live forever, good memories of mirth, mischief and merriment, and mostly of comraderie and fellowship. Squadron ops are long hours of hard work, interspersed with long hours of worry about long hours and longer missions. Add flying over injun country and the tension levels go up. Keggers were a great way to relieve those stressors without squadron shrinks, valiums, or extended leaves, etc.
Heck, one of my favorite memories was of a change of command ceremony held overseas. The Officers had a little soiree at the club, mixed with some sort of off-the-cuff ceremony of stomping on their wineglass after the last toast. There had been many toasts, it seems, and the outgoing skipper seems to have gorgotten he took off his shoes earlier in the evening. He crushed his glass, and ended up with quite a few stitches in his foot. His appearance at the COC ceremony was priceless: choker whites and crutches, with a slit in his trousers to allow for the large wrappings around his foot and lower leg. The admiral could barely keep a straight face…….
We had guys with alcohol problems for sure, but usually the problems were more of a “poor quality of local brew” or “supply/quantity” issues than overindulgence.
But I agree with Skippy-san about being held accountable for one’s actions. This preventative course of BA monitors, etc, is BS. It reeks more of Puritanism and the Inquisition than with prevention. I also agree with the religious overtones as well.
Anyway, that’s my 2-cent’s worth.
Respects,
AW1 Tim
Okay, I think I more fully understand everyone here….and about 99% agree. I think it’s a matter of both personal accountability and a clear understanding of how to administer a military regimen on a bunch of college kids who wanna party when they’re not standing watch. Which is about as close to impossible as I can perceive without one of the two sides cutting corners in some way….
There seems to be a whole lot of misinformation or misunderstandings concerning the cirriculum, courses taken, hours to graduate, and many other topics concerning USNA. I offer this as a fact-based starting point for discussion:
http://www.usnaconcernedalumni.org/majors.htm
As you can see, even “English” majors graduate with a BS, among other facts that seem to be missing from this discussion.
I would also note that many of the guest of the NVA matriculated with the major system, yet they seem to be cut from the same cloth as those who graduted and served in WWII.
http://www.usna.com/News_Pubs/Publications/Shipmate/2000/2000_09/boat.htm
ProwlerGuy,
re- “even ?
You’re the one who posited 140 hours would be enough to keep them from becoming the devil’s workshop, not me. The FACT is that 140 hours is the MINIMUM to graduate from USNA. I know I had considerably more than that when I graduated.
I also was responding to AW1 Tim because he seem to be under the impression that such topics as seamanship, navigation, and engineering are not part of the curriculum of every midshipman.
I’m glad you at least acknowledge that CAPT Stratton might be qualified to opine about the quality of USNA grads (as he was not one himself), and I only point out that his opinion of what he called BRBs was high, and some of those BRBs were the product of the major system that you seem to feel has caused the officer corps to go to hell in a handbasket. There may be many things wrong with the NA, but the course of study is NOT one of them.
I would suggest that the issues in play are part of a larger change in society, and other sources of officers are even more likely to be infected with that decay.
I also noted the big chip on your shoulder concerning augmentation. I’m sure that you are aware that in the armed forces, when one makes a commitment to the service, the service recognize that. Go DEP, pick your rate. Re-up, pick your next duty station. Volunteer for a crappy billet, get your choice next time. It’s no different here. I “augmented” at 2 for 7 night. From that moment on, I was heading for the fleet, one way or another. So I am really sorry that you had to wait a couple of years before you were regular Navy, but you got the same pay as I did, so I’m just not feeling your pain.
You’re not the first to suggest that the service academies should be abolished, nor will you be the last, I am sure. McNamara jumps into my mind as another who shared your views. So crunch the numbers. Show me that you are right. Don’t depend on your claims to the mantle of “old and salty” to convince anyone that you are correct.
Cool, piling on time again!
Prowlerguy, I love you USNA guys who get your panties in a wad every time someone has the gall to suggest that perhaps there are now better (read more efficient aka more economical) ways to build Naval Officers and leaders than there were 200+ years ago when it was really needed.
So here are my questions:
1. What do we get from a Naval Academy graduate that we don’t get from an MIT or Notre Dame or U of Maryland graduate that go to AOCS after college?
2. Do USNA graduates make better leaders? Explain.
3. Do you agree with BadBob’s earlier assertion that leadership is something that can’t be taught at a school? If the answer is no, could you please tell me what classes I need to take to be a better leader?
Thanks,
Nose
PS I didn’t have a degree when I got my commission and still seemed to do OKAY. Want to comment on that also?
OK Prowler600 let’s tango. You’re sorta nasty. Don’t blow a bearing!
re- “The FACT is that 140 hours is the MINIMUM to graduate from USNA”
Point made. I didn’t know. How about let’s make the 140 HARDER then? Don’t like that? Hell it was just a suggestion.
re- “you at least acknowledge that CAPT Stratton ” Well P-600 when I MET him he was a fairly new Commander. One of my heroes. If you noticed, he was, 1., writing for an academy publication, and 2., the grads HE was writing about graduated for the most part over 40 years ago…I agree with him for that reason. I’m just not so sure today. Please prove me wrong.
re- “augmentation pain”- no pain here, just showing that things were different and even more difficult in the olden days. I won’t go into the whole reserve/regular discussion as it was 20-30 years ago, because it wouldn’t matter and nobody much cares. The playing field is level today. 30 years ago guys like me (and Stratton) had to “bigger, faster,stronger…” He even acknowledges such.
re- “..suggest that the service academies should be abolished”
Never did any such thing. I just said do a cost benefit…Think about it. Over a 100K a year, per student of taxpayer dollars is a significant cost vs. what ROTC or even cheaper OCS is. The quality from the NA should be much higher qualitatively measured. Personally, I don’t think it is nor ever really has been. It’s a club within the officer corp. Always has been. Does that piss you off? Tough shoot. All I’m saying about the academy is: “keep embarrassing the rest of us”. .
P-600- I love the USN more than the NA is all. They are two separate and distinct entities…
B2
What he said!
N