Good news for the Navy from the Hampton Roads Daily Press -
Congress agreed Friday to reduce the size of the nation’s aircraft carrier fleet for the first time in 12 years by mothballing the USS John F. Kennedy.
The decision, part of an annual defense policy bill that neared final passage Friday night, settles a two-year battle over whether to retire Florida’s only aircraft carrier.
The JFK has been a burden to the service now for over a decade and it would have cost billions to put her back in fighting trim. Even keeping her at a reduced level of capability cost us $200 mil per year – money desperately needed elsewhere, what with aviation acquisition programs being hacked to bits – while on the human side, thousands of impressionable young sailors learned what it meant when their ship was unloved by the service, even if they were cared for by their own chain of command.
Reagan-era Secretary of the Navy John Lehman’s “Fleet Dispersal Plan” was pitched as a way to reduce naval vulnerability to sudden attack during the Cold War, but there’s little doubt that it’s true intent was to spread DOD-related jobs around. Keeping a carrier in Florida kept the shipyard maties busy – though not as busy, truth be told, as they ought to have been in a more perfectly funded world – while 3000+ military salaries got spent in Mayport. For that reason, keeping her around was very much more of a political discussion than a military one, although once again, the argument was framed as one of “capability.” Now that the decision has been made, the wheels are turning again – does Florida get a “replacement” carrier? And if so, who stands to lose?
Hampton Roads and Newport News it would seem, if you read the morose remainder of the linked article above – combat capability gets short shrift.
She was a good ship, once. Shame to see her go out like this.
Sounds like more “cedant arma togae” if you ask me. OK, so you didn’t ask.
A doc I work with was FS on JFK – ’89-’91 timeframe or thereabouts. Has a beautiful photo of her steaming proudly along – also some neat NAS Key West (unofficial) memorabilia. I’ll be interested to hear his take.
Seems to me it would be mighty expensive-and against all best business practices of economy of scale-to upgrade Mayport to take care of nukes. I would think it would make more sense to station some amphibs there instead.
Good news, eh Lex?
“The JFK has been a burden to the service” & “money desperately needed elsewhere”
Of course, but how did we get here. Let it die of a thousand cuts, in other words. It’s done to airplanes, ships and some people; the Navy way. No decision is better than a tough, TIMELY, decision. That may get you criticized. When I was in my twenties I dumped girlfriends with 200% more integrity-feeling than what the Navy did to JFK.
“Navy John Lehman?
Good news, eh Lex?
“The JFK has been a burden to the service” & “money desperately needed elsewhere”
Of course, but how did we get here. Let it die of a thousand cuts, in other words. It’s done to airplanes, ships and some people; the Navy way. No decision is better than a tough, TIMELY, decision. That may get you criticized. When I was in my twenties I dumped girlfriends with 200% more integrity-feeling than what the Navy did to JFK.
“Navy John Lehman’s “Fleet Dispersal Plan”” Man, I love 20-15 hindsight.
“She was a good ship, once.”
The best- Supercarrier. No bugs- no rats either. The most beautiful blue tile arena you ever saw. 95-100 aircraft aboard. 24 hr ops for two weeks straight…
Ever since it came out of the Mafia Philly shipyard early because of..well…. criminal malfeasance (my term), it’s never been the same. Simultaneously, the Enterprise (a Westpac ship during her heyday BTW)was undergoing same-same in SLEP refit for billions (mainly reactors).
“They” could only have one— they chose to undercapitalize JFK.
I’ll let it rest but I don’t want to be reminded of the smell.
b2
Long forgotten trivial sea story…
The wife of the first XO (herself the mother of 8 children) had to corral JFK Jr. to keep him from going over the side when they and a gaggle of other VIPs were on a barge ride just after comissioning.
She kept him firmly in her lap for the rest of the little jaunt.
Sid,
re- “scale-to upgrade Mayport to take care of nukes”
Not as expensive as you’d think- we did it at North Island in early 90′s. About 1/2 a Superhornet dollars. (the Naval Aviation standard unit of measurement).
B2
I am given to understand that Mayport cannot accomodate a CVN without some fairly hefty (read expensive) improvements to its facilities. Even then, I don’t think anybody’s crazy about the idea of basing a nuclear carrier down there. And since JFK is the last CV but one, and that one is scheduled to retire in two years…
“About 1/2 a Superhornet dollars.”
That’s about what?… 20 Million Wendys Dollar menu Bacon Cheesburgers? Great number though.
BB- It’s a lot more than 1/2 a Superhornet. How do I know? I had to repeatedly send the 1391′s to CNIC, OPNAV and the gaggle of elected officials for required construction efforts and infrastructure improvements when they were initially playing the politics game with JFK and a possible CVN replacement 2 years ago. We’ve finished a few projects (only one of substance was electrical upgrades on C-2), but there’s a lot of nuke-specific construction to support O&M of the plants as well as dredging the turning basin and the carrier berth….~$250M for everything. But, seeing as how some construction materials are on a never-ending increasing trend, those estimates quickly become inaccurate. Further, our estimating tools are rarely, if ever, accurate. Experience has taught that one needs to add about 20-30% to be in the true ballpark, with an additional 3-10% annually for regional cost adjustments.
The reason there haven’t been any congressional adds to the MCN program to “encourage” the Navy to move a CVN is that they’re limited to less than $10M on those types of projects and the smallest CVN-related project is far above that number…..and we need to await the results and public comment on the IES.
Gator freighters wouldn’t be bad for the area, but it impacts combat capability and training even more than a CVN in Mayport. They’re a 2+ day steam away from their green pieces as well as the LCAC/LCU component. About the only gray hulls that could come here without a real impact on their mission/training would be USNS.
The only ship I know anything about is my 17′ bass boat.
But am I wrong to find the notion of transfering an aircraft carrier to the Department of Homeland Security to be about the craziest idea to come out of Washington in a long time?
Jim:
Definitely not THE craziest but ranks right up there. Maybe they’ll put it along the Mexican border – part of the new fence program, ya know.
Admiral Chertoff???
Cheers
Lex,
I?
Lex,
I’m not going to bitch about your toeing the company line, becase you do it so well. However, the current line company line is penny-wise and pound foolish. There are serious reasons why a naval nation would not want to moor all of their capital ships in two ports. Our Navy, and consequently our country, would be stronger is we had elements of the fleet up and down the coastline. There is no reason not to have bases in places like Charleston, South Carolina and Brookline, New York except penny pinching ignorance and shortsightedness.
Jim,
The craziest idea to come out of Washington in a long time is the Department of Homeland Security. Why, what could be smarter than taking a lean efficient group like the Coast Guard and having them take orders from a top-heavy bureaucracy?
The DHS idea may be related to the work some of the big-deck ‘phibs did during Katrina. There’s some merit to the idea of a mobile disaster relief ship with plenty of room for temporary berthing (a hangar deck and lots of galley space), helicopter spots (a flight deck), the ability to make lots of fresh water (see Lex’s archival piece the other day), and good command & control facilities. A carrier has all those things. It’s not the most efficient way to do it, but it is a way.
According to the Virginian-Pilot (I’m not registered for the article Lex linked), the ship will also be offered to NATO. They won’t take her either, but if making the offer helps the Navy get rid of the ship, then by all means the offer should be made.
My two cents: I work at Mayport, and have since there were no ships with gas turbines. They ALL had boilers, with the exception of the old Navy harbor tugs. I loved the Forrestal and Saratoga. Great ships to work on, great crews to work with. And yes, when I go to work aboard a Navy ship, the ships crew is my partner in accomplishing our work. A good crew is a blessing, a bad crew is a curse. The Kennedy is worse than a curse. With some exceptions, the crew of the Kennedy is a pain in the ass to deal with, and they could care less if the work gets done or not. And yes, this was before word ever got out about a retirement. 2003 was one of the most irritating years of my life, having spent 10 months aboard the Kennedy working the ESRA. It’s bad enough that the shipyards here bid every Kennedy job high, in hopes that someone else will get the work.
The word I hear is that we will not get a CVN here, for the already stated reasons. We’re hearing (through the old-boy network) is that Mayport will get a pair or three of gators. That’s cool with me, I’d expect them to be professionals, the kind of people I can always work with.
Is Mayport a good place for a base? Hell yes! Major rail and highway connections less than 20 miles away, good climate, you can just about shoot an arrow into the Atlantic from the carrier pier, and the Jacksonville area is a great place for a Navy family to live: for starters, Florida does not have a state income tax
Drydocking is available five miles upriver at Atlantic drydock for everything from the CG-47s and DDGs down. What’s not to like? Of course, if you like living in Norfolk 
One other thing, about the “give the JFK to the Coasties or DHS”. Does anyone that’s comes up with these powerpoint ideas have any idea what it’s going to cost to just run the JFK? Oh, and don’t forget that boiler re-fit that’s needed…or that you better get ready to pony up a ton of money to get certified for flight ops…or any of the other various bits and pieces of the ship that have fallen into bits of pieces of rust and corrosion.
Best thing to do is a sinkex.
Sorry Cap’n
Others may say the JFK is/was a good ship. To this Beached Chief, the best that can be said is that she took out at least one ship in her career. I was present when the JFK and USS Belknap collided. At night. In November. I am happy to say that, although the water was bloody cold, all missing sailors were recovered. No thanks to the lack of JFK helos.
When the fires were out and dawn came, the Belknap looked like someone took a fire axe to her starboard side. CIC’s overhead opened up like a tin can. Damage in engineering spaces was never really fixed (she had one of those damnable 1200 psi boiler systems). The Belknap was never the same, even if she did serve as Sixth Fleet Flag upon her return to the Med.
8 sailors from the Belknap died that night. I knew two of them. The JFK will never enjoy my respect.
As for Mayport, I heartily agree with the need to improve the base to handle CVNs. Mayport was around before Mr. Lehman and will be around well after his ignoble 9/11 Commission service is buried as trash. I was stationed at Mayport for 5 of the best years of my Naval career. I’m tired of that base being treated as a poor relative to N’Folk.
SeniorD
Used to be Mayport was chock a block full of ships. The delta piers had DDs nested 4 deep, the bravo piers were home cruisers like the Albany and the then spankin’ new DLGs like the Standley, and the C piers looked pretty impressive when both carriers (the earliest combo I remember was the FDR and Sara) were in port.
8 sailors from the Belknap died that night. I knew two of them. The JFK will never enjoy my respect.
Its important to remember that collision was not the fault of the JFK. The fault for that accident lies primarily with the OOD on the Belknap and a CIC that was much more interested in the air picture than keeping up a good surface bubble.
“Used to be Mayport was chock a block full of ships. The delta piers had DDs nested 4 deep, the bravo piers were home cruisers like the Albany and the then spankin?
“Used to be Mayport was chock a block full of ships. The delta piers had DDs nested 4 deep, the bravo piers were home cruisers like the Albany and the then spankin’ new DLGs like the Standley, and the C piers looked pretty impressive when both carriers (the earliest combo I remember was the FDR and Sara) were in port.”
I’ve seen 23 ships in Mayport at once, and that’s about all I care to see, given the traffic getting in and off. My earliest carriers were the FDR and the Shang
And, sad to say, Sid, the Delta Club burned down about 15 years ago. Ah, the 0900 breakfast breaks, and the Bud in the Coca-cola drink machines 
I’ve taken a nuke (IKE) into Mayport — while the Special Sea & Anchor detail was much shorter than Norfolk, we had to go in light (airwing flown off, pre-ammo load, etc.) and even then we barely had enough water under the keel to keep the nukes happy, and this barely a month after the place had been dredged to allow the deeper draft Stennis to come in to port.
Re. JFK — I’m ambivalent. Have time obd (86-87) and recall it less than fondly — the month+ of HCA’s and EMCON because the radar was broke d*ck, water hours and JP in the water (leaves one with a nice glistening after showering, when you found a head working and it kept everyone, well, regular…), etc. I well remember the final years of Coral Sea and how she alone consumed 40% of AIRLANT’s operating budget. I say, offer it to Boston as a museum, if they don’t want it, sinkex. ’twas ‘good’ enough for America and Oriskany, should be good enough for JFK.
-SJS
SJS-I benefited from the amount of money it cost to run Coral Sea! My credit card bills were big because of all the time we spent in port. Which beat the hell out of being out at sea……….( Every time I was in Naples I took permanent shore patro……paid for the rest of the cruise).
I for one, remain a fan of the strategic homeporting plan. I think its sad that places that once were major Naval Bases are gone now. It would be nice to have a carrier in San Francisco again, and the same with other ships in other places. Plus, you did not have to put up with all the hassles of getting services that you did in Norfolk-Anybody remember what a pain in the ass it was to see a doctor at Sewells Point?
My memoru of Kennedy was coming aboard her the day before Desert Storm began. We America sailors were still pretty happy go lucky (since we had to do 3 NATO exercises before we went through the canal). On Kennedy they were wearing reflective tape instead of name tags, blood type marked on it and carrying weapons. It was a big shock. Especially since we were there when the GO order came through.
One other point-house prices in Jax did not suck they way they did in California. A Navy person could by a reasonable house for good money. You did not have what you have in California, folks commuting from way up north.
Plus Cecil Field was a better airfield to operate out of than Oceana……………
Sid,
I certainly remember the FDR and the Saratoga. Watching the YoYo make her annual turn around cruise and seeing HMS Ark Royal steam in. Mayport is a way-cool ops base.
Yeah, I know the Belknap’s CO, OOD, JOOD and CIC were responsible for the collision, but what the JFK DIDN’T do to help rescue sailors in the water is what flames me. No helos, no boats in the water. I almost believe the rumors that the trawler picked up more sailors than the JFK.
Besides, the crew always seemed to be full of themselves.
“she was in good shape once…”
Yeah, when my Dad ran her logistics!
re JFK and Belknap: hence her nickname in the early 80s :”The Can Opener”.Re Mayport: Great ops base, I’m neck deep in Fleet training, Mayport has become nexus of C2X, etc. since Vieques/AFWTF shut down. Putting a nuke and building a NSF at Mayport is a non-starter. Gators is a fair fit and the OPAREA is just about the same distance away from NOB.
SeniorD,
re- “Others may say the JFK is/was a good ship.”
You know. It’s funny. I came aboard shortly after the Belknap incident on JFK. This “other” has a quite different view. How can that be?
Did I ever hold the fires aginst the Enterprise and Forrestal years later, when I cruised on ‘em? Hell no. Truly sorry about your shipmates. I saw the damage fairly fresh too. Mishaps happen. As an aviator I can verify that tragedy stalks all those at sea.
Though it may be FOD now, I still say JFK was the best CV of the 1980′s, hands down.
re- ByronA:
“Best thing to do is a sinkex.” Are you shooting me? Hyperbole?
Boston harbor museum.
B2
Wow, that decision only took about like forever to finally get announced. It’s impressive how much pressure was put on Navy to keep the thing running and in Florida…
re JFK and Belknap: hence her nickname in the early 80s
re JFK and Belknap: hence her nickname in the early 80s :”The Can Opener”.
A reputation further enhanced when the Bordelon decided to run under her as well while refueling alongside in Teamwork 76.
(see pics near the bottom of page)
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/881.htm
I can tell you the JFK crew was quick to fisticuffs when somebody mentioned “Can Opener” during the next liberty in Portsmouth.
‘Tho I never cruised on her, spent a lot of time on JFK. Was Senior LSO for FRS Carquals a couple of months after the awful yard period Badbob talked about early on. No phones, no doorknobs (!) only about every third head worked etc. We had to use hand signals between the LSO platform and PriFly to get pilot’s moved in and out of airplanes. I guess that’s what you get when you tell the yard workers that the day the ship leaves the yard, they all get canned. Rumor was that the last 90 days in port everyone burned their sick leave and almost nothing got done.
Went out in 98 for a few days so my CAG could go get his 1000th trap. I checked in at about 2300 and the room they put me in was 1) 110 degrees (this was in port, and I was on O-2 Lvl so it wasn’t cat steam) 2) Had no lights 3) Had a broken door. The next morning, went to S-5 and talked to the WR officer. He gave me another key and I checked out my new, better room. No matresses. Nice. So I went back to S-5 and told the Chief that CAG might come aboard and could I please get the key to his stateroom so I could make sure everything was OK for him. Nice, Air Condo, TV in office and stateroom, phone that worked and a bed that was juuuussst right. Luckily, CAG’s jet never broke and I lived like the faux king that I was for a couple of days.
Here is my take on ships: The crew makes the ship. Period. I cruised on Sara in 92. Small deck, old ship, pain in the ass to get from Norfolk to Mayport, but the crews first answer to any request was “We can do that.” Laundry came back clean and pressed, chow was good (anyone remember the fresh bread at every meal?) flight deck could work a “Full sized” airwing (2X Tomcats, 1 X A6, 2 X Hornet) without missing a beat. Then I was on GW in 97-98. Though I greatly admired the Captain, his crew left a lot to be desired. Default answer was “No.” Laundry, if it came back at all, was usually wet and in a heap. Food sucked, stateroom cleaning non-existant, we ran out of milk on day 2 of cruise! Flight deck was cocky and could only work about 85% as efficient as Sara (With only 1 Tomcat squadron and no Intruders!), etc etc etc.
I’ll take an old ship with a gung ho crew any day!
Nose
RE: Comment # 11 above..small quibble. I’m sure the commentator meant Brooklyn,New York not “Brookline,New York”. Brookline, MA as some might know is a landlocked city bordering Boston that just happens to be the birthplace of JFK. Could explain the egregious error on the commentators part.
Snark aside…Great background educational thread for this landlubber..attempting to decipher all that navy lingo is a real challange. Best
Nose,
Best set of orders “I didn’t get” was at the end of that yard period I talked about: CV-67 Dept Head. Ex squadron mate I was to replace talked me out of it! What a buddy.
Roger all on the premise that the crew makes the ship.
To go further in the details, JFK came out of that period in crappy shape. She was kept in crappy shape by an outrageous OPTEMPO during the late 90′s and after 9-11 and the early decision to make her a reserve carrier was just another reason not to upkeep her. Then of course, you had some D.S. CAPTS assigned last cuppla years too….
Young’uns like Lex, Chap and “Mander don’t know the whole history of JFK. To them it’s just a P.O.S. Get outta the way so’s we can buy more LCSs, Virginia class and SuperHornets! Sigh…
Sounds like I’m being feisty as usual but like I said above, please don’t put my nose in it…I hate piling on. All I will submit is: a carrier is out there for 40 years and has a bad decade at the end isn’t some of it the Navy’s fault…possibly?
B2
Just for the record, I’m junior to Lex. (Only just a bit) I just left sooner. The type “a” in me wishes I had stayed. The father in me knows I made the right choice. God bless everyone who stays in and makes both the career and family work. I couldn’t do it!
N
JFK crew: I got aboard and started working on her right after the 2001 Insurv. I found the worst crew I’ve ever dealt with. Like the man said, “No” and “I’ll go look (and never come back” were default answers. The ship was filthy (except flag country) and neglect showed in every corner. The Sara NEVER got this bad. And I enjoyed working with the crew, because they wanted their ship in tip-top shape, and were willing to go the distance to get it there.
Second, it’s not the crews fault that the JFK is as run down as she is. She got the smelly end of the budget stick, since Philly and NAVSEA butchered her, and then when it was decided that she’d be a training carrier. And we all know how that ended up. We spent close to a half billion dollars in 2003 patching her up, and it wasn’t near enough. I know from the jobs I was on, that I was inserting deck and bulkheads around the HCFFs, that we should have replaced twice as much as we did…and didn’t because there were too many high priority items that needed fixing. I strongly suspect, that the crew was a reflection of the Navy’s attitude towards the ship, and that they were the victims of a lot of personel changes (good out, bad in).
And with all that said and done, we’ll spend some more money to get her decom’d, and some more to put her in lay-up…a fair piece of change, again. The $200 mil DoD thinks they are going to save is going to get a serious bite out of it.
And B2, there’s a hell of a lot of us yardbirds who’d pony up $100 apiece to get ringside seats to a Sinkex…we really didn’t like that ship..really.
“Sink me the ship Master Gunner,
Sink her, split her in twain;
Let her fall into the hands of God,
Not into the hands of Spain”,err DHS…
And if you do the Sinkex, make sure the GAO bean counters are on board to personally audit the event. That way they can be absolutely certain in their little mustard seed hearts that every single missile and torp used was actually needed. Though they’d still whine as the waves closed over them that the whole event cost way too much. But hey, for those guys–no expense should be spared.
Byron- look at the whole record of service NOT just the last decade is all…
Those Mafia shipyard workers in Philly should be exterminated ala Tony Soprano, I tell ya!
re Sinkex- not if I can help it…
I know what’s gotta be done but I can’t stand all the friggin “GLEE”.
B2
Look, I watched in agony over the course of months as “The Ageless Warrior” (Coral Sea) was reduced to scraps in the boneyard on the south branch of the Elizabeth River. I don’t want to see JFK reduced to that. If museum isn’t an option, then a sinkex where, like America, we can learn something that will ensure survivability for the next generation of carriers will certainly be a final and fitting end to her service.
B2 — Empathize w/you. As one who has participated in way too many disestablishments/ decomms over the past decade plus (including taking my squadron to shuttered doors), I don’t take enjoyment or demonstrate glee in the passing of an organization or ship. For me, it has been too personal to do so…
-SJS
SJS,
Thanks for commiserating. You know what I’m talking about..Us Dinos understand that old stuff gotta make way for new stuff but it doesn’t have to be a wetting down party when an Irish wake is more appropriate!
Plus anything they save will go to NMCI or that new travel system…(I won’t bring up LCS….) BFD.
re sinkex- we just did that. I know absolutely nothing official about that test but tell me, what more can we learn?
b2
Guys, I feel your pain. I really, really hate it when I have to work a decom. It’s like putting a round in your dogs head. I’m a dino myself, having started this way of life in 1971, and I love building and repairing ships. I could have done a lot of things, but this is what I love. I understand, on a gut level, that a ship is a living thing, unlike any aircraft, or train, or motor vehicle. There is a REASON why they are called “she”. But the Kennedy is not the same ship you remember, not at all.
Re the Philly Mafia: I hear you. Was a good thing when they closed that hellhole. I talked to guys that had to go up to Philly to finish the Kennedy ESRA, such as it was, because as soon as the civil service yard workers found out the yard was closing after the Kennedy left, they just clocked in, sat around, played cards, and didn’t hit a lick at a snake. I got no respect for people like that, and they are NOT craftsmen. It’s not always about the money.
I’m real sorry I can’t feel the same way about the JFK that I did about the Sara. None of us old yardbirds are going to miss the JFK, not one bit, and you believe there is a reason for that. It’s not the ship, gentlemen, it’s the crew. And it’s been like that for several years now. Time to put her down, and past time for it. Lastly, I’d rather see a warship go down fighting, than cut up in a salvage yard like a carcass being stripped to the bones.
Anybody here who was around when she was new and shiny? Just askin’.
I think of a (very) unofficial website I’ve looked at from time to time, owned by a guy who used to manage some of the neutron-emitting parts of USS Enterprise.
That ship is going to be de-commissioned in a few years.
I imagine they’ll have a party. Think of everybody who ever served aboard her, since nineteen-sixty-something, showing up for that party.
I would like to observe that party, from a safe distance.
My son-in-law will be at that party, Justthisguy