From the Washington Times:
A Chinese submarine stalked a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group in the Pacific last month and surfaced within firing range of its torpedoes and missiles before being detected, The Washington Times has learned.
The surprise encounter highlights China’s continuing efforts to prepare for a future conflict with the U.S., despite Pentagon efforts to try to boost relations with Beijing’s communist-ruled military…
The incident is a setback for the aggressive U.S.-China military exchange program being promoted by Adm. Fallon, who has made several visits to China in recent months in an attempt to develop closer ties.
However, critics of the program in the Pentagon say China has not reciprocated and continues to deny U.S. military visitors access to key facilities, including a Beijing command center.
In contrast, Chinese military visitors have been invited to military exercises and sensitive U.S. facilities. Additionally, military intelligence officials said Adm. Fallon has restricted U.S. intelligence-gathering activities against China, fearing that disclosure of the activities would upset relations with Beijing.
You just can’t be nice to some people.
Now, I could be wrong or have things confused in my head but looking back at WWII – didn’t we do sorta the same thing with the Japanese? Right up to when they bombed Pearl Harbor?
just sayin’………….
Cap’n,
Wanna bet Asheville and/or Seawolf were listening and knew exactly where that pup was the whole time?
No bet. And as the title says, “No comment.”
Lex, “No comment!!!” just about says it all. Best
If the author had been anyone BUT Bill Gertz I wouldn’t take the bet SeniorSeabee..
Seeing how it is Mr. Gertz I’ll take it. No odds.
b2
What happened to the ASW screen, or are these modern Destroyers (built on light cruiser hulls) not capable of ASW? In the past (40+) years the Birdfarms were always heavily ASW protected. More than one Russky found out the hard way. Who ever the screen commander was should be getting a Royal Reeming.
When I was on GW and one of the new members of congress from PA was the DESRON commander, we used to find subs all the time. Usually it was a lookout seeing a green flare 2-3 miles of the port beam.
Nose
Sounds to me like this young Chinese OOD just had some depth control problems. Pity for him he ended up broaching instead of losing control the other way.
I’m not worried, CAPT Lex. I’m not commenting either, really. I will note that even a stopped clock is correct twice a day. And Chinese SSs are that lucky less frequently than that.
Subsunk
“The carrier was not engaged in anti-submarine warfare exercises at the time and thus did not have active patrols for submarines, the paper quoted a U.S. Navy official as saying.”
http://www.japantoday.com/jp/news/390343
That tells me the USN only does ASW during exercises.
Saying no comment alludes to something else.
I try to interpret things through my own lens.
No, I haven’t been over to bubblehead to join the silent service discussion either…Don’t need it.
Lastly, there is almost a symmetry to this in that Fox Fallon, the aggrieved Big Commander reported the incident. He, along with former CNOs and others (including Skippy’s favorite) was part of the “brain-trust” that under-resourced ASW during the last decade…Dat Irony Lex?
B2
Cap’n:
Didn’t a Chinese delagation visit Topgun in the 1990′s?
Re: Visiting TOPGUN
Not while I was there…
Bein’ a dry land sailor, and not being familiar with ASW, it would be interesting to know if we knew of the sub’s presence all the time and were just letting the ChiComs have their moment of glory (with the Seawolf and Ashville waiting in the wings), or is someone’s head gonna be served on a platter?
Duncan Hunter made a good point on Lou Dobbs yesterday, regardless of how the sub got there, any technology advances the Chinese are making is being financed by American dollars which are being shipped and spent in China. That’s not good for a whole host of reasons.
Instead of learning Japanese, maybe I should have learned Mandarin…..NAH.
Don’t forget Toshiba who sold our super-silent prop making stuff in 80s or 90s.
N
As a former sonar tech,(surface) on the USS Badger with a few Wespac’s under my belt. If we were underway, sonar control
was manned and searching for contacts-
Submarine and surface 24/7. Typically in
passive mode. OTOH a Carrier generates a HUGE amount of noise, which tends to mask other contacts.
I am not sure about the current SOP, but isn’t there a moratorium on active sonar transducer emmissions,due to the Enviro’s.
Shipmates,
WEll, I spent my Naval Career in ASW. I ain’t worried one whit about this situation. I remember when a Soviet Victor surfaced off of Norfolk and scared the bejeebus outta a bunch of folks. Lots of hue and cry and gnashing of teeth, etc. We gotta LOT of intel offa her, however…….
If’n I was the ChiCom skipper of that boat… I’d be doing some serious soul-searching (provided he actually has one) as to why the USN seemed to be ignoring me. THAT’S got to be more disconcerting than anything else…..
Respects,
Back in the good old days of the 600+ ship Navy, there were a lot of ASW assets. Not much left to do that now, albeit more capable. Anyone not nervous about the dramatic increase in number and capabilities of Chicom Navy, and their focus on ways to destroy CVs is not paying attention. That’s big freaking ocean and not a lot of USN haze gray left to watch it, let alone control it. Given the lead time for replacement of any weapons (ships, aircraft, even things that go boom) and ignorant cheapskates in Congress, don’t look for it to get any more comforting any time soon. Not a pleasant subject.
Hmm, maybe more really LOUD active pinging would be in order, all the time. Maybe even to the point of using explosives. I mean if you use a really bright light, you can see even the dark things. If the other guys already know where you are, you’re not giving anything away.
A few points here from an old retired ASW kinda guy…
A. The article reports that the sub surfaced within torpedo and missile range undetected. Perhaps I’m mistaken but I seem to remember something along the lines of missile ranges in the 30+ mile range back in the day. I’m sure they’re quite a bit longer now. Torps – longer ranges than the average person might expect.
B. The presence of this submarine in the area was not a surprise. An exact datum may not have been generated or maintained, but trust me, they knew he was around.
C. I did not read the article so I really don’t know if it was detailed, but what was the situation at the time? I mean it’s pretty easy to approach undetected when the target is moored at the pier (snark!).
Well, yeah, ORC, how loud were the various parties, and how sensitive were their ears, and was there “cheating” in the form of satellite reconnaisance, or good use of open sources, or talking to drunken sailors, or what?
As others have written, this might be a calculated leak to make us get more serious about ASW. I think we should take ASW more seriously. Nobody cares what I think.
Oh yeah, to get back on topic, I agree that it sucks that foreign rivals get to look at our plans and preparations, but we don’t get to do the same to them.
I do prefer Western Civilization (what’s left of it) to Eastern Civilization. We may have to fight. Again. Dammit!
as far as the exchanges go, i think it was kissinger that said, “soviets do not pay for services already rendered.”
the chinese have the same mindset, apparently.
the chinese will milk this for all it’s worth until *someone* figures out this isn’t working and the US is getting nothing out of it.
You older guys who have an inherent faith in the old ASW system-capability you were familiar with may feel comfortable about this situation.
But what IF you’re wrong gentleman?
Quote from an expert on the ASW situation in todays 4-5 ship CSG (not called Battle Groups anymore notice the number of combatants assigned)on the Air ASW differences YOU might remember:
“My first readyroom air anti-submarine warfare lesson onboard the FID was: the P-3 guys had the outer screen and would detect, track and attack 80% of all evil soviet submarines and we the hoov guys in the middle screen would detect, track and attack 80% of all evil soviet submarines, finally the helos and DDs would detect, track and attack 80% of all evil soviet submarines in the inner screen. thus unless the evil soviets attacked with more than 240% of their submarines the CVBG was safe…..seems to me the chicoms need less than 1% of their subs to do something the soviets couldn’t do with 240% of theirs”
B2
Time for an INCSEA with the CHICOM’s?
Late to the party, I admit it, but nevertheless:
unkawill:
but isn?
Late to the party, I admit it, but nevertheless:
unkawill:
but isn’t there a moratorium on active sonar transducer emmissions,due to the Enviro’s.
Only for testing and “planned operations” like excercises. No enviro regulations limit a commander’s discretion while deployed. If a CO wants to ping SONAR, he can dern well ping. (LFA being an exception).
BadBob:
I hate to admit it, but from a bubblehead’s view, air and surface ASW has taken a big hit recently. ASW systems are getting modernized at the rate other combat systems are, and the practice necessary to keep your folks sharp isn’t happenning as often as it should.
Add to this that while I will still take a US sub against any other country’s sub in a stand-up fight (and several hostile subs at once for many countries), the sub fleet has been drawn down to the point that there is no longer a dedicated sub screen for a CVGB, much less the two of yesterday. So yes, ASW is not what it was.
In the old days it would have been the sub’s surprise to discover the Air ASW assets sitting on top. What a great mission it was to go cat and mouse with your adversary in real time.
It will not be easy to regenerate the experience base if we ever again need it. Still, I can’t fault the choices made given the overall budget constraints.
Pig,
I agree 100% with your analysis and respect your up to date technical knowledge. I would add that ASW is a team sport and that SSNs, while a strong offensive threat, it is nearly impossible to win if you only field 5 on a worldwide field against 11….
Flatlander,
re- “It will not be easy to regenerate the experience base if we ever again need it. Still, I can?
Pig,
I agree 100% with your analysis and respect your up to date technical knowledge. I would add that ASW is a team sport and that SSNs, while a strong offensive threat, it is nearly impossible to win if you only field 5 on a worldwide field against 11….
Flatlander,
re- “It will not be easy to regenerate the experience base if we ever again need it. Still, I can’t fault the choices made given the overall budget constraints”
We need it.
My pragmatic side agrees that budget constraints affect resources but not without a level of risk assumed. In our case the risk (IMV) has been cleverly mitigated, often ignored or even obsfuscated about…
No second chances here. Remember the Belgrano:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARA_General_Belgrano
b2
Catching up: Kitty Hawk vs the Chinese sub…
ASW is not a pick-up game. You truly go to war in this realm with what is on the table and folks, we are sorely lacking….
Maybe they wanted to defect?