Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
wuuuf.
hurl.
yeah… that’d be my response too. what do you think will happen? what is the “norm” in cases of friendly fire like this?
It looks like our media acting like complete asses is a problem the Brits share as well. As for what happens to the US aviators, well, based on what the article says, they reported seeing orange panels on top the vehicles (which should denote friendlies, if that was the designated color), and were assured by higher that there were no friendlies in the area. Given that, they should be clear. Depends on how long it takes to resolve the situation on the Brits end. BUT…I’m an amateur at this, people like Lex would know the procedures for CAS.
The cockpit recorder tape released by the Sun newspaper is up at Hotair.com
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/02/06/video-us-jet-attacks-uk-convoy-during-iraq-invasion/
These were A-10′s? Warthogs? Which means they are USAF guys?
Wow! Very upsetting to “fly along” with these guys via the video. Sob…
Way beyond sad.
From the vid one time through, IMpO- indefensible and inexusable. There’s always “fog” to some degree but I ain’t seeing it in the vid OR the separation between combatants and blue. Plus..an O-4 and an 0-5 were driving…
I would only add context, in that this occured during the invasion period during that time when Iraqi regulars (some) were standing and fighting with heavy weps…
Hard work indeed.
b2
Yah, these guys really made a mess of the whole thing. Neither of them were sure of the target, and didn’t seem to have a fix on whether or not it was a valid target at any time. “Orange rockets”? On a battlefield? Orange makes real lousy camo…but is a big sign to tell friendly air, don’t kill me. Which Popov surely did. They had a target, and they were going to shoot something.
Damn shame. Terrible for the Brits, I can understand their anger. And makes the Air Force look pretty damn incompetent.
Doesn’t the air controller have to take some responsibility too though? I mean its all awful and I recognize my ability to interpret what’s going on isn’t going to be as good some but they were told more than once that there were no friendlies in the area.
I was reading the Sun article and felt like I got a good lesson in media spin. Comments from the widow that she couldn’t believe how casually the pilots could discuss what they were doing as her husband died. And then a couple of quotes from the pilots that more or less made it sound like they might only have been concerned about their own necks. Didn’t quite paint the picture I got from listening to the actual tape.
Is it any surprise that the pilots were almost jovial when they thought they were bombing the “bad guys”? As the ex RAF navigator said in one clip, people make mistakes – its one thing to push the wrong button (or the right button at the wrong time) in the civillian world and quite another to do it providing CAS.
We’ve had blue on blue attacks with out troops and now I wonder how much of what I read and watch on TV is giving a true picture of what really happened. [Feel free to insert "My God, is she that niave!" comments here] It’s also occurred to me that isn’t it always the US pilots making the mistakes and kiling their allies – guess you can expect that when they are the only ones (?) providing air support.
So now I am back to where I started – the pilots often get the blame (and I can only assume that sometimes they “deserve” it) but what about the people on the ground telling them where to go and what to do? Although for the most part, instead of spreading the blame around I think I would rather just …. acknowledge what an awful life that has the potential to be – from the top of the world to the depths of hell in just a few minutes flat. Not all vanilla ice cream and lollipops, indeed. “Hard work” seems like quite the understatement.
Michelle, during Desert Storm, an A-10 fired on a British armored formation, killing several individuals. The aviators were held harmless in this instance, primarily because the Brits were instructed that they needed to put panels on top of their vehicles so US air would not blue-on-blue them. Now note that these particular Brits DID have orange panels on their vehicles. And the two A-10 pilots clearly saw them. They made the assumption, not backed up by the FAC, that these were rockets. Orange rockets? I’m a dumb civlian, I know better than that…I’d at LEAST wait till the FAC cleared me in hot, which, unless I didn’t hear it, DID NOT HAPPEN.
Michelle-
Simply this. This ain’t law.
It all comes down to the dude who pulls the trigger or depresses the red button, then it goes up to the flight lead responsible for orienting to the target.
Sure the FAC or JTAC bear some responsibility but not even 1/20 the responsibilities those pilots had….Ultimate rewsponsibility. Pretty cut n’dry for those in the bidness. Not a lot o’gray area for the law in thar.
re- “…on the ground telling them where to go and what to do?”
That only works with UAVs and drones.
b2
B2
Learning a lot here but you gotta help me out a little – UAVs??
Funny, I just wrote a note to someone saying that I tend to see things as a lot less black and white then most people do, that I seem to see a lot more gray in the world. But I’m not entirely sure that is the operative concept here. You’re right – the law would definitely aim to lay liability squarely at someone’s feet; although if I was the one deciding, I would likely try to use a split liability concept.
Maybe I’m just too “touchy feely” – what I am really trying to say is I feel just horrible for both the troops on the ground AND the pilots.
maybe it’s because my guys are all enlisted, no officers…..dh is an NCO…..
but I figured, if they asked and asked, no friendlies? and were told no, no friendlies in area…..then…….
wouldn’t they have got serious trouble if they’d refused the mission?
But then, I didn’t understand the vid real well even with subtitles, not clear on how things work……so educate me!
It sucks, all the way round, anyway, and especially since it’s been 4 years and the pols and journalassts are gonna make hay out of it.
Michelle,
UAV- umanned aerial vehicle- ala Predator-Pioneer.
The voice calls you can hear say it all Michelle, for the most part. And I might add the analysis for the breakdown is defined pretty well in the article. I don’t think anyone that posts/reads in here regularly is gonna want to break this one down- hearts not in it.
Re law and liability- none of that is really applicable to warriors when they’re doing their jobs. In the old days, or the new days, when it comes to flying and releasing weapons, there is only the pilot in command for final accountability. In that world, right and wrong are clearly defined and the folks entrusting their lives to those in the air to provide CAS depend on that pilot to follow procedures.
Zero defect in other words. At least that’s how it should be. No- must be.
On the ground, in a court of law, well, that’s just a “process” we have all chosen over “eye for an eye”. While justice is something to strive for, it is still different than right-wrong.
b2
Only brought up “the law” cuz I thought you did.
Was NOT trying to argue anything.
Was NOT particularly wanting to “break it down” either.
Was just trying to say – you know what, it doesn’t matter. Its sad, that’s all. We can agree on that, right?
It’s certainly a moral disaster, but I’m not sure there’s much legal concern. A court martial would have to prove criminal negligence, which is a pretty high bar to get over considering it was a combat zone and the FAC had told them they were well clear of friendlies.
Their comm discipline is awful, which is painful to hear but I’m not sure we can draw further conclusions. Rolling in without a “cleared hot” is kind of a tweener: Although they’re clearly seeing and adjusting arty fires, they don’t seem to be under direct FAC control – which makes sense, since there aren’t any friendlies in proximity, so far as they know. That puts them past the FEBA and employing under “reasonable assurance” ROE.
The question a court martial would as would not be whether they made the right decision – clearly they did not – but whether a reasonable man might make the same one.
Sure it’d been better if they’d questioned assumptions. The orange panel is a “no shoot” indicator, and I suspect that when they were twice told that there were no friendlies that far north, their minds tried to fashion something of an orange panel that was not an orange panel. They talked themselve into missiles – SCUDs were falling into staging areas and rear echelons in Kuwait, remember and rolled in. In a combat situation where the bad guys can shoot back, you could maybe understand how they could forgo a VID run.
Of course, I’m talking court martial here. Rules of evidence apply. If they went to NJP, it could all rest upon a whim.
It’s a tragedy, is all. I thank God I’ve never had to walk in their shoes.
Why is it always the USAF that’s whacking our own guys? DS, Afghanistan…?
I got my answer at a kegger at NAVWARCOL talking with a somewhat lubricated A-10 bubba.
It’s their dctrine- the USAF doesn’t approach CAS properly, let alone embrace the mission as the USN/USMC do.
These sad events will continue to haunt the participants until the doctrine is changed.
A sin and a shame.
Really tough to listen to that tape…
I was surprised at how Popov 36 seemed to be working hard at talking himself into his action. Hindsite is of course 20-20, but he seemed to be on rails – the “orange rockets” should have set off enough doubt to hold him off. There appeared to be other air assets in the area and I didn’t detect a sense of urgency that the potential target had to be engaged immediately.
A tough day.
Uh, Lex, I concur with everything you said, save one: “SCUDs were falling into staging areas and rear echelons in Kuwait” I didn’t hear of SCUDs being fired during OIF?
From a Command and Control perspective:
1. Concur with Lex, Comm discipline sucked. Lack of SA was astounding.
-Popov 35 seemed to be lead, but 36 did a lot of pushing.
-FACs were talking to both Popovs instead of the just the flight lead.
-Who was working for whom? Sounds like Popovs were working a CAS mission for Manila Hotel while at the same time filling a FAC(A) role for an Arte mission.
-Popov 35 kept talking to Manila Hotel about reveted vehicles, as far as I can tell, he NEVER said anything to anyone outside of the flight about the moving vehicles. (If you are not familiar, each A-10 guy is listening to two radios, one is for comms between the two pilots in the Popov flight, the other is for Comms with FACs and other “outside” agencies. We are hearing both at the same time, just like they do.)
2. Even though I knew the outcome, as I watched the tape I kept trying to will them to ask more questions, run the orange panel issue to ground, get some SA. I was surprised by how quickly they rolled in. (But there was fuel/time pressue in play) Then after 36 comes off tgt from the first run he asks “That’s what you think they are, right?” Too late to be making sure now. Like Bob said, no fun taking that one apart. Hard to defend.
3. Fog of war illustration: First shots fired at 5:40 on the tape. Manila 34 starts to get some SA that maybe there is a blue on blue, but I don’t think he had coms with the Brits, just started to put together posit of Warthogs and Brits. The first call from someone who obviously had comms with the Brits (Sky Chief) who is making the MOST IMPORTANT RADIO CALL HE HAS EVER MADE did not come until 11:44 on the tape. I’m sure it had to go through several steps, but it took 6 minutes to get a message from the ground to the air.
From the been there, almost done that point of view:
I was a major contributor to a non-combat incident which almost cost the lives of several people. That pit you feel in your stomach when you watch the tape, multiply that by a couple of orders of magnitude and you start to feel what those guys are feeling. No matter what the reason, you know you have just been part of something very bad and it hurts. Right down to your soul.
No matter what happens/happened to these guys, I doubt it will even come close the anguish they feel over killing a comrade-in-arms. I, by the grace of God, didn’t kill anyone and I still think about it every day.
Every day.
Pray for everyone involved.
Nose
Did a little Googling, and found this:
1) The unit involved was the Idaho Air National Guard?
Did a little Googling, and found this:
1) The unit involved was the Idaho Air National Guard’s 190th Fighter Squadron.
2) As of 2/5/07, the investigation has not resulted in a court martial
3)”Neither pilot from the Boise-based 190th Fighter Squadron was disciplined in the U.S. military’s own investigation, which concluded the pilots “followed the procedures and processes for engaging targets,” Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said today.”
http://www.idahostatesman.com/235/story/70260.html
Michelle,
I’m not on ya for anything- relax. Roger that on the feeling bad, too. It’s just that I can’t ‘splain this one from a standpoint of anything else but what that guy and his wingman verbalized. All I hear is pure error. Lex said it better..they talked themselves onto the ‘target’. They reasoned on.
It’s true what Lex said about walkin in their shoes but I don’t hear anyone calling for fires..now..I hear a deliberate target of opportunity attack. I did mention the context up above for a reason. 15,000 ain’t high enough without air supremacy and at the time (I think) we hadn’t declared it. Most of us have seen that A-10 all shot up doing CAS near the Bagdad Airport. The enemy still had their heavy weps too. Doing CAS at that juncture was in the yellow-red risky. Lastly, I’m sure the ROE was different than now during that manuever phase of the war as we overan them, but some things, like those panels on a (seemingly) VFR day- label this as unforgivable. Truly a tragedy.
I won’t say anymore, but I will go read what the blue suiter has to say about it now.
b2
There were 9 “Scud” – I’m using the term generically for SRBMs – launched during OIF, all of them successfully targeted by Patriot batteries.
Unfortunately, those same batteries also shot down two coalition aircraft, killing three souls.
Thanks for the clarification, CAPT. Suffice that the AF investigation was closed, with no recommendations. A lot of fog, there, a lot.
I see some confusion in some of the posts here, the incident occured during the air offensive of the US named operation Desert Storm and the British named operation granby in 1990/1991.
I was a british soldier in the Gulf conflict Operation Granby in 4th Armoured Brigade Desert Rats at the time.
When this blue on blue incident happened it spread through the net like wildfire of two A10′s opening fire on two British Warrior tanks from 3RRF (Royal Regiment of Fusiliers) which had as we all did – large orange flourescent ‘sheets’ on the top of our vehicles to identify us as friendlies along with a black large painted upside down V on the sides. My personal thoughts at the time were how the F*&K could that have happened and how wreckless were those pilots and this was a view shared by many of us. We were also very angry at the ‘Americans’ for being so trigger happy and unprofessional. Not a short time later we ‘my unit’ were caught in a blue on blue ourselves. Our incident involved us at one point spearheading the ground forces into Iraq on the left hand swing. Unknown to us we had a British army tank unit over to our right and an iraqi army tank unit to our left. (shells make a sweet noise flying overhead) – the tanks on either side were in the middle of a little battle of their own. Both sides wondering who the idiots were driving straight through the middle of the battle, temporarily diverted their attention to us. We scattered like dodgems at the fairground and fortunatly nobody was injured or killed due to the speed and efficiency of the radio operators alerting the british armour to the error. We were joined very shortly after by that same unit to protect us while they still engaged the enemy to our left.
I guess the reason why I tell you this is for those of you that wish to express distaste at the Americans for being trigger happy, as a British soldier I have witnessed first hand how we are also just as guilty of that offence. War is ugly and does not give you the luxury of time – you are fighting on limited sleep and stretched to the limit unlike the attorney you will face in court after the fact who had his full 8 hours kip in a soft bed in the sheraton before he/she attacks you for your actions performing your job.
So, this is the first time in many years that I have thought about this incident and it is alarming that this audio tape would be released to the public. I have a huge hatred of the media (I have never purchased a newspaper since the Princess Diana debacle) and I will instantly switch off any news that is biased.
If this audio tape is accurate then I think the pilots were very wrong to have opened fire on those vehicles, but the blame should be shared with the commmanders and everybody else involved. I did not hear any grid references being relayed and the pilots continually justified their intended attack between themselves. The command suggested it would be ‘nice’ to eliminate them before they came home. They were all wrong and this is a terrible fact but punishing these pilots now will not do anything but cause more deaths in the future by making other pilots think twice (Lee Clegg incident Northern Ireland taught me to never fire my rifle even under fire in NI for I was not prepared to go to jail for my country unlike that poor bastard that was only doing his job). These pilots are living with this tragedy for the rest of their lives and I think this is more than enough punishment.
As for the families of the soldiers that died, nothing will bring them back but I think the pilots should consider personally facing those families in a closed room with no media aware nor present so those families can see the tears that those pilots have shed.
The media needs to shut the F up and leave sleeping dogs lie.
Just my thoughts.
Glad to hear your words wayne, and for what it’s worth there’s no one in the world I’d rather fight besides. Well, the Aussies are pretty good blokes too.
It’s a hard job sometimes. Someone’s got to do it.
Wayne,
Great comments. If you instantly turn off any biased media, you would be hungry for news in the states, because that is all we’ve got – biased one way or the other, but biased nonetheless.
I got the impression from the video that it was one of the A-10′s, not anyone in their tactial command structure, suggesting it would be “Nice” if they got rid of the vehicles before they RTBd. I listened again and still think all comms concerning the Vehicles were internal to the A-10 flight.
God save the Queen.
Best
Nose
It would appear that my initial thoughts were incorrect. This video does not relate to the blue on blue incident that happened on 26th feb 1991 in operation granby as I had first described (very limited information out there on this one) but the circumstances are far too similar that it is scary.
The incident that is attracting so much controversey now relates to the death of Lance Corporal Matty Hull in March 2003. http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,124177,00.html?ESRC=dod-b.nl
Maybe some money should be spent on vehicle recognition? Sorry about the confusion and my other comments remain the same but I do wonder why nothing was learned from the 1991 error.