Our conversation below on the Code of Conduct and Leading Sailor Turney brought some thoughts back to mind that I hadn’t turned over in quite a number of years.
I had three deployments flying over Iraq enforcing sanctions in the southern no-fly zone between the wars. Each time we went the political situation was a little different. During my first trip up there 1994, we mostly flew two-ship defensive counter-air missions, designed to protect Kuwaiti and the southern Iraqi Shia provinces from air attack by a vengeful Saddamite air force. It was pretty peaceful for the most part, and in fact we used to recce SAM sites by doing target acquisition missions in the threat envelope, vying to see who could bring back the best FLIR video. Crazy when I think about it now, but we’d won the war, hadn’t we?
We didn’t know any better.
By the time of my last flying deployment in 1998-99, the focus had changed and each of our “box” hops was like a mini-strike, complete with tanking plans, SEAD and USAF coordination. Tensions escalated in December of ‘98 - we got to the Gulf just after Saddam had gone through one of his UN inspector-ejecting spasms, and in time to join a previously stationed east coast carrier that had been launching air strikes the previous four days in support of President Clinton’s Operation DESERT FOX. We launched one strike of our own - I wasn’t on that strike, I was setting up to lead our ship’s second strike in country - when the word came down that we’d accomplished whatever it was we were supposed to have been accomplishing and that it was time to stand down.
When we had first gotten there, the airspace had been fairly unrestricted - there was one long-range SAM site in Najaf, and another, shorter range one in Basra I believe, but after that it was clear sailing almost all the way up to Bagdhad, or at least as far as the 32nd parallel. But during our 30-day, self-imposed stand-down - ostensibly to show our sensitivity by observing Ramadan - Saddam threw every surface-to-air missile system he could scrape together into our airspace.
What had been relatively permissive environment was now a damned tight bit of maneuver space, into which a lot of high speed aluminum was routinely packed, most of it going in different and non-complimentary directions.
And as if all those machines weren’t a sufficient threat to each other, when Ramadan ended and we started flying in the Box again, Saddam started shooting at us - anti-aircraft artillery, mostly, since we were smart enough to stay out of the missile engagement zones and the SAM operators were (mostly) smart enough not to shine their radars at us when we were out of range. Churchill said that there is nothing quite so exhilarating as being shot at and missed, which is true at first, but after a while it can also get nettlesome.
The odds of getting hit by undirected AAA at the altitudes we operated at were pretty small - and undirected AAA was the main threat, as anyone shining a fire control radar on an arty tube was begging for a self-defense anti-radiation missile to be shoved down his throat - but while small, the odds were non-zero. On top of the ever present risk of clacking into one another, we used to also fret about getting hit by a “golden BB.” After all, you put enough trash in the air, and eventually someone’s going to run into it, which, if it hits you someplace vital then you’ll have to ditch the jet and go for a walk.
In very likely the same neighborhood where someone was just shooting at you. Which sucks.
Speaking of suck, there are few experiences to match, for sheer density of compacted suckage, SERE school. “Survival, evasion, resistance and escape.” Even though our instructors were Americans, and military servicemen who at their heart wanted to make sure that we all got through it OK, it was still pretty much the Worst Thing Ever. The lesson I most of all took away from that was, “Don’t get captured. Ever.”
People carried different things on their trips into “the Box.” On top of all the usual survival gear, I carried a lot of extra water, a blood chit, morphine ampules (it may be true as the the Marines say that “pain is weakness leaving the body,” but it’s also true that it’s easier to run south on broken ankles if you’ve got morphine in your system), a 9mm pistol (although I would have much preferred a .45, they weren’t issuing them) and two mags of ammo, 16 rounds in all.
I was suiting up one day and noticed that one of my wingmen - a junior guy whom I respected, and a real knife-in-the-teeth warrior in an airplane - wasn’t carrying a pistol. I asked him why. Turned out that one of the guys he’d known who got bagged by a SAM during the ‘91 scrape was quickly surrounded by Republican Guards before he’d even had a chance clear his parachute, much less clear leather. The agitated Iraqis - and I reckon you’d be agitated too, if someone had been bombing the hell out of you pretty much non-stop for five weeks - yanked his pistol out of its holster and shoved it in his mouth, which if you’ve ever hefted and smelt a pistol is a pretty vivid image even before you paint the angry Iraqi soldier into the background. That was enough for my man.
Which was right for him, I guess - you couldn’t make a guy carry a personal sidearm, or anyway, having ordered him to carry it, you could scarcely order him to use it in his own self-defense unless you wanted to jump out of the jet beside him when he went down. Which, they may have done that sort of thing back during the Korean War, but it’s fallen out of favor in recent years.
I felt differently of course. I told him that one of my first mentors told me that if you get shot down the war hadn’t ended, it’s just the tactics that have changed. And while that may sound like fighter pilot braggadocio, it was also true that if there was one Iraqi farmer there with a pitchfork standing between me and liberty, it’d be nice to have Mr. Glock around to demonstrate his poverty of options, came down to it.
What I didn’t say but was privately thinking was that 16 rounds gave you 15 chances to escape and one alternative to surrender.
It’s funny what you think about.
25 responses so far ↓
1
Monkeyboy
// Mar 29, 2007 at 11:32 am
I’ll make the comment here rather than on the Code of Conduct post.
I don’t know who the last US naval officer to surrender his command without firing a shot was, but I’d be damned if I’d do it. I’d hate to answer to these sailors or these.
2
Pogue
// Mar 29, 2007 at 11:45 am
Kind of an addendum to my comment under the Code of Conduct thread - SERE school made us really pay attention to escape and evasion, but we were still oriented towards escape. When we were deploying for OIF and public beheadings became the in thing our team (gun truck) decided amongst ourselves that we weren’t going to be taken alive if we had anything to do with it. Fortunately we never got into a situation that called for it. It’s a pretty rough conversation to have with your family, though.
3
lex
// Mar 29, 2007 at 12:00 pm
CDR Lloyd Bucher was the last to surrender his command without firing a shot, the USS Pueblo in 1968.
He is not well-remembered.
4
Curt
// Mar 29, 2007 at 1:19 pm
Well, Lex, it depends on which end you’re discussing…Obviously he is favorably remembered by the North Koreans….and what a lesson there is in that.
My statement was: “You have to come home to be courts martialed, but only one to tell the story has to get home to get you the medal.”
5
fliterman
// Mar 29, 2007 at 2:14 pm
It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s difficult if not impossible to accurately forecast one?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s response to a POW or hostage situation. I knew well a Naval Aviator flying over North Vietnam. He sincerely vowed that he would never be captured. He swore that he would continue firing his 45, save for the last round, or until he was killed. And knowing him well, I truly believed him.
Then imagine my surprise later, to see him alive on TV as a POW in Hanoi. When he later was finally repatriated, I asked him about it. He said that in the ?¢‚Ǩ?ìcircumstances of that moment,?¢‚Ǩ¬ù and surrounded, he suddenly ?¢‚Ǩ?ìchanged his mind.?¢‚Ǩ¬ù
I also have some comments about the Pueblo incident and CDR Buecher (whom I knew slightly). But it?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s all been said before from all perspectives ?¢‚Ǩ¬¶so I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ll just let it lie, and may he rest in peace. [The only thing new is that the Soviets may have encouraged the North Koreans to seize the Pueblo. They wanted to obtain crypto to match with what they had from traitor and spy, John Walker. True or not, they got a treasure trove of intel.]
6
badbob
// Mar 29, 2007 at 5:42 pm
fliterman,
Not that I care about the reputation of the USSR or the traitor-weasle John Walker, I don’t like neatly packaged conspiracy theories. Please reconcile a time-location discrepancy:
“USS Pueblo (AGER-2) is a Banner-class technical research ship, notable for being boarded and captured by the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea on 23 January 1968 in what is known as the Pueblo incident or alternatively as the Pueblo crisis.”
“Walker had begun spying for the Soviets in early February 1968, when, facing serious financial problems because a South Carolina bar/restaurant he was operating on the side was deeply in debt and failing fast, he walked into the Soviet Embassy in Washington, DC and sold a classified document (a radio cipher card) for a few thousand dollars.”
I often sighted poor CDR ret BUCHER in/around Rancho Bernardo when I was fortunate enough to live there back in the 1980’s. Weight of the world look….
b2
7
AW1 Tim
// Mar 29, 2007 at 6:37 pm
BadBob,
And therein lies an interesting thought. Was Walker’s story perhaps not entirely accurate? Perhaps he was actually approached by the Soviets because they knew of his situation, and needed some items to corroborate their findings from Pueblo…..
It would be real handy to have not only the crypto data, but corroborating data from another source. Nice to have a mole handy to also see what steps were being taken to ameliorate the damage/loss.
If the Soviets had a hold of the baseline tech equipment, all Walker would have to do is pass along updates when required.
I know, a lot of if’s and and’s and buts…. still and all, I may spend some time in the files and see what I cans ee regarding the timelines. A real interesting slant on Walker there….
Have to admit I wish they’d hung him, though.
Respects,
8
Steve
// Mar 29, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Sucked it did indeed. For those not familiar with Navy training, completion of just about everything, regardless of length or complexity, usually results in the standard government issue “suitable for framing” certificate. SERE school was the one certificate that nobody EVER round-filed. Not that it was displayed on the wall - it was copied and placed in safe-keeping just in case proof of completion was ever requested. Don’t want to do THAT one over.
9
fliterman
// Mar 29, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Badbob and Tim -
A thesis by Maj. Laura Heath, reprinted on the Federation of American Scientists website ( link here in pdf) tells us about Walker/Pueblo, (FWIW?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ I do not know of its veracity):
—————–
“Weight of the world look” was right about the older Bucher.
But what else to expect ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú he was not given key intel and appropriate support leaving him hung out to dry, he loses one of his men and has a number injured, he loses his command and ship, suffers incredible torture for he and his men for nearly a year, is released only to face court martial, and is shunned by most all of his peers. I have seen officers heckle him publicly and throw drinks in his face.
My personal opinion of him was that he was a natural fighter, and would be one especially unlikely to give up anything without a fight, or good reason. But I wasn’t there and it’s difficult to judge.
Col. Ollie North called CDR Bucher a true hero in his 2004 eulogy. Read it over at Arrgghhh.
10
AW1 Tim
// Mar 29, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Steve,
Yup… the SERE school certificate was one I kept in a file folder in a fire-resistant box, along with a copy of my shot card, and pretty much anything else I got.
I agree, it was something to survive and NOT want to repeat. Ever..
Now, the Dempsey Dunker, however, that was cool…. I asked to go again. Got a really strange look from the Chief. Go figure.
Respects,
11
OldRetiredChief
// Mar 30, 2007 at 12:01 am
SERE School- aaargh. But I can say that I went at a time when not all Aircrew were required to go. I learned a lot about myself there, especially during the eternity I got to spend on the water board. “Here there are tigers” indeed. I have always felt a great deal of sympathy for Cdr. Bucher, he was in an impossible position, making impossible decisions, with no support from anyone. He and his crew did their best to find ways to resist in any way they could. But you just don’t surrender your ship and crew without a fight. Like I said, impossible position.
12
Justthisguy
// Mar 30, 2007 at 1:14 am
Reminds me of what I’ve read of Frank Luke’s last fight. He’d been shooting down balloons with incendiary bullets, then German infantry with the same bullets, when shot down. When he crawled out of the wreckage and saw them coming for him, he knew it was not going to be fun, and emptied the 1911 at them. Ran up their anger so they didn’t feel like capturing him, which was prolly a good thing for him then and there.
13
Justthisguy
// Mar 30, 2007 at 2:10 am
Oh, some of us spend most of our lives in SERE school. See this:http://www.infamousbrad.com/hates.html
He got his teeth knocked out by a gang of jocks in an attempted murder when he was 14, just for getting good grades.
I didn’t have it as bad as he did. I attribute that to my not being as autistic as he, and to attending schools with lots and lots of Jews, which sort of made it okay to be nerdy. (Of the dozen National Merit Finalists in my high school, I was one of two gentiles)
Nonetheless, I, too, got jumped and beaten for no reaon, a coupla times. I, too, was the honest party in disputes a coupla times, and thought to be the bad guy by Authority
14
Justthisguy
// Mar 30, 2007 at 2:34 am
I’m actually Justthisguy. I listed Brad’s website as mine as the easiest way to post a link.
15
badbob
// Mar 30, 2007 at 4:43 am
fliterman,
Court records (facts) list Walker’s first contact with the Soviets a month after Pueblo was taken..Good enough for me.
All the rest is postulation methinks, a Major’s writing nothwithstanding. Compelling though, and something a cold warrior like me would easily attribute to the Soviets evil empire..
re your- “I have seen officers heckle him publicly and throw drinks in his face.”
Too unseemly. I flat out don’t believe it. You are imagining it like that sailor in the NYT expose thought she had been in Iraq….
Yes Tim, strongly concur hanging would have been entirely appropriate. Same for the warrant officer Whitworth. The pawn son? Friends of mine on Nimitz who had to go through months of Red-A$$ because of him would probably add him to the hanging list, too!
b2
16
Nose
// Mar 30, 2007 at 5:16 am
We (USS GW/CVW1) were in the gulf about a year ahead of you, Lex. We got sent there about 3 months early because Saddam had kicked the UN Inspectors out of his palaces for about the 5th time. We ran through the Suez on about 8 hours notice (we had a Colonel from “another country” on board who couldn’t ride through the Canal with us, that got interesting.)
We were manned up and ready to launch on the strikes that would eventually become Desert Fox (Lex, I think you owe me some strike planning credits!), but luckily, Kofi Annnon brokered a lasting peace in true UN form.
The part that makes this germane to this discussion is the lead-up to the strikes. We had, in the airwing, a RIO who had been a POW in Baghdad. At CAG’s request, he went from Ready Room to ready room, briefing us on what had happened to him while a “guest” including the mental and physical treatment he was afforded.
Of course, we got the classified version, so we got all the details. It was pretty gut-wrenching to hear and I remember thinking, just like I did in SERE school, “can I hack this if it happens to me?”
N
17
Therapist1
// Mar 30, 2007 at 7:44 am
I never understood why they did not hang any of the traitors from the Navy, CIA or FBI. If their actions resulted in the deaths of others or the serious compromise of national security, it is time to die.
Hearing you all discuss SERE school makes me think about the reported “torture” of detainees. I kept telling my wife, does not sound as bad as some of the reports I’ve read of SERE school. It also makes me want to extend a very heart felt thank you for everyone who has made the decision to either join the military or follow through with their draft requirements. Every day you could be in danger whether from your own training, duties or assignments and it may not be said enough. Thank you.
18
fliterman
// Mar 30, 2007 at 10:41 am
Badbob ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú I have no problem accepting court record facts. They’re good enough for me, too.
However, your disbelief of Bucher insults, and unwarranted speculation on my alleged imagination require some further comment. I offer you one particular instance:
CDR Bucher, several others and I were at the O’club one night, playing a friendly game of Klondike. From across the room, a tall man in uniform arose from his table. Drink in hand, he strolled over to our table where we were playing. Standing next to the seated CDR Bucher, he said, “you’re Lloyd Bucher, aren’t you?”
When the CDR replied “yes,” the man threw his drink hard into Bucher’s face.
The CDR immediately jumped up from the table, and aggressively confronted the man. The rest of us at the table quickly rose and pulled the two men apart. We then all paid our bill quickly and left the club without further incident.
Now if you still want to “flat out” disbelieve that CDR Bucher was not often the object of insults, that’s fine. But this unfortunate and “unseemly” event actually happened. It was not “imagined.”
19
badbob
// Mar 30, 2007 at 11:47 am
I’ll take you at your word fliterman. Still unseemly for any Naval Officer I ever knew…
Which O’Club? Miramar, MCRD, 32nd Street, Coronado or North Island. I’ve been to all of ‘em.
b2
20
fliterman
// Mar 30, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“Which O?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢Club? Miramar, MCRD, 32nd Street, Coronado or North Island. I?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢ve been to all of ?¢‚ǨÀúem.” b2
Me too, but you missed a couple?¢‚Ǩ¬¶including the sub base and Adm. Kidd.
Let’s just say after his return, he generally avoided “black-shoe” clubs ?¢‚Ǩ¬¶ however, the perpetrator involved in the described incident wasn’t wearing wings.
21
P-3 wife
// Mar 30, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Long-time lurker, but thought I’d add my two cents from the spousal side on this topic. I remember when husband was supposed to go to SERE school and was very reluctant to be the senior officer there, as that meant he would receive worse treatment to protect others. I also remember that the idea of SERE school meant that there was the potential for it to be necessary for my husband to use those skills in fact, not in theory. Not comforting thoughts for a wife when husband would be far away and unable to communicate easily (not like now with email and cell phones). Also remember watching the news to be sure that nothing was going on in the corner of the world he was hanging out in, too.
Scary thoughts, indeed.
22
Brian
// Mar 31, 2007 at 4:41 am
When I was in NROTC we had an XO (F4 RIO) who was in the Hanoi Hilton for several years. He did not speak of it much except on one occassion he gave a detailed presentation of what went on and we listened with rapt attention. He had no problem with those who broke under the extreme duress and gave information - if I recall the code of conduct did not exist at that point as guidence for them. But for the ones who accepted early release or favors he said he’d shoot them himself on the spot if given the chance (other than the young sailor who ended up there after falling overboard - he was specifically tasked with learning and remembering all of the names of those in the facility so he could bring that info out to the US gov’t). It was an amazing presentation.
The hardest part of SERE for me was at one point I was faced with the choice of talking or ordering subordinates to talk or letting them shoot a junior enlisted guy. I remember lying my a** off about being a helo driver at one point (I was an E2 NFO). It was the toughest school I went through by far. Lost 10 pounds in a couple of days too.
AW1 - you *liked* the dunker??? Are you nuts?
Brian
23
AW1 Tim
// Mar 31, 2007 at 7:31 am
Brian,
Heh….. I was brought up around water, learning to swim at an early age. Maybe I am nuts, I was an aircrewman after all….
Personally, I liked the ‘dunker because it was another challenge. A problem to solve. That’s probably why I was attracted to the AW rate. I was big-time into games, especially wargames, and anything that made you think things through. Variables, constantly changing environments, different targets from day to day, etc. But the dunker, that was interesting. Into the water, flip upside down, bad envrironment, disorientation, panic. Made you think.
Actually, the Helo dunker was the worst. That one you had to do blinfolded. You were in the tube with several other guys, and you hit the water straight down, the rolled over and submerged, had to find your way out from memory and by feel. THAT was just a tad bit frightening, and I readily admit that.
However, once you managed to survive it, you got this incredible surge of confidence. That was a good thing.
Respects,
24
Brian
// Mar 31, 2007 at 10:57 am
AW1 - I was thinking of the helo dunker when I read your post. I thought *that* was the one you wanted to do again. Dilbert I didn’t mind either.
What I remember of the helo dunker was after the last ride standing on the side of the pool with water draining out of my sinus cavities for about 5 minutes straight. I also hated just sitting there after you hit as it filled up with the water slowly going over your head as you rotated upside down. But I too remember that feeling of confidence - both from having completed it and from the knowledge that I’d just finished AI and was on to VT-10.
Oh, to be in those times again…
Regards - Brian
25
AW1 Tim
// Mar 31, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Brian,
For a report on how that helo dunker training paid off, I offer up this from the Fleet AW association websiteL
http://www.tourohio.com/fleetaw/Schreffler.html
It’s one of those “Happy Endings” but not all were so lucky. Bullet 10 lost all 4 last january. Still, some excellent stories on that site about surviving mishaps and hwo NATOPS, etc, played in the solution(s).
Respects,
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