Well, it seems our correspondent Shifty was on to something. The VaTech shooter was a deeply troubled young man. As if that’s any surprise.
The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.
The note included a rambling list of grievances, according to sources. They said Cho also died with the words “Ismail Ax” in red ink on one of his arms.
Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.
A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery” and “deceitful charlatans” on campus.
Cho was an English major whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service, the Associated Press reported.
Referred to counseling, but no apparent follow up.
I frankly don’t blame the overall administration for their reaction yesterday – you can’t know what you can’t conceive, and it would have taken an extraordinary leap of intuition to lock down a campus of 26,000 people because of that early morning shooting, following as it did raised voices, an apparently chosen target and someone who tried to intervene .
But we have seen enough of disturbed people acting out in ways that draw attention to themselves to have learned to take such actions seriously. Not just to refer them to counseling, but to by-God follow up and make sure they are getting it. Which doesn’t appear to have happened here:
Professor Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of the university’s English department, said she did not personally know the gunman. But she said she spoke with Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing, who had Cho in one of her classes and described him as “troubled.”
“There was some concern about him,” Rude said. “Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it’s creative or if they’re describing things, if they’re imagining things or just how real it might be. But we’re all alert to not ignore things like this.”
She said Cho was referred to the counseling service, but she said she did not know when, or what the outcome was.
Talk about depressing.
A single ray of light in all this darkness: What greater love has any man?
The e-mails from grateful students arrived soon after Liviu Librescu was shot to death, telling how the Holocaust survivor barricaded the doorway of his Virginia Tech classroom and saved their lives at the cost of his own.
Librescu, an Israeli engineering and math lecturer who survived the Nazi killings and later escaped from Communist Romania, was one of several foreign victims of Monday’s shootings, which coincided with Israel’s Holocaust remembrance day.
As if he hadn’t seen enough.
Smoking Gun has one of his writings, a play he wrote. Extremely disturbing piece…
I still hold my initial thoughts on what would have cured him, 140 grains of jacketed hollow point delivered by none other than his own hand upon the self awareness of the evil welling up from within him…
As for those that actually read his works prior to his heinous acts, how is their consciences holding up today I wonder? Them too that knew of his stalkings, and other oddities…
I’m not a religious person, but I can’t help wondering if Professor Librescu did not, at the moment of his heroic sacrifice, finally have the answer to the question he had undoubtedly been asking himself since he survived the camps. He finally knew, “why me.” Rest in peace.
Bill, that’s a beutiful thought. I’m not really religious either, but it does bring to mind that whole “He works in mysterious ways” thing, doesn’t it?
Apparently Professor L wasn’t the only hero either: “What seems clear is that Clark, as the most immediate authority, tried to intervene and was killed for his trouble.” Clark being the resident advisor at the dorm.
I hope this opens up some serious commentary on mental illness in this country. What should have been done? And who should do it?
An adult cannot be forced to go to counseling or take medication unless it (not can be, HAS) been proven he is not stable enough to run his own life. It’s quite a process.
When do we force the mentally ill to take medications which have profound nasty side effects, in many cases? We must protect ourselves, but…
And I am concerned about the number of cases where someone has “snapped” and done something like this, where it’s mentioned in articles, almost in passing, that the suspect “may have been on anti-depressant medications.”
Is any actual research being done on those cases where anti-depressant medications caused rage responses? I know this problem firsthand, and was never so frightened in my life, for one short, hellish weekend. I no longer see the doctor who RXed that mess.
I don’t have any problem with depression, either. It’s been years, was triggered by hormonal issues surrounding the birth of my child, and has completely resolved. BUT, for a while there…
Frightened my dh, too. God bless him.
So…Reagan closed the institutions. What now?
respectfully, doorkeeper
Not to defend the university’s seemingly lack of follow-up for Cho, but do schools have the necessary resources to deal with every single person who shows signs of doing something like this, so no one falls through the cracks? I don’t think they do.
This goes to other posts/threads here lately about the general impression that a lot of people have about mental illness. It’s real. Just because you can’t see it, like a physical injury, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. But a lot of people don’t feel that way. They say, “Snap out of it!” and the like. They have no idea what they’re talking about. And unfortunately those are the same sort of people who are in positions of influence to determine funding for mental illness treament programs through health insurance companies.
Makes me sick.
I know next to nothing about mental illness or bi-polar, schizophrenia or clinical depression but I do remember public policy changes…
re “So?
I know next to nothing about mental illness or bi-polar, schizophrenia or clinical depression but I do remember public policy changes…
re “So…Reagan closed the institutions. What now?”
Mental institutions were closed down by the states in the late 70’s and early 80’s because of legal decisions made during Jimmy Carter’s time in office from suits introduced by his justice department. Judicially, it was determined that they have Civil Rights as long as they are not criminally insane and we all know how one gets to be adjudicated as criminally insane- one has to committ a heinous crime first. Close down the institutions was the order. Long story short to clarify: The follow-on Reagan administration had to execute bad laws made under Carter…BTW, that is also where a good portion of the persistent homeless problem we suffer through to this day started.
I hate misinformation.
One more thing. Are psychotic killers even treatable beforehand? Seems this guy had all the cunning and premeditation (vests, gun purchases, planning) to commit this act without visible manifestations other than 20/20 hindsight witness reports that he was weird and a loner…Right now I am content to simply call it an act of Evil, with all the religious overtones.
b2
A simple, uncaptioned picture of Professor Librescu, Hero, is now posted in my workplace. It is remarkably inspirational, and a reminder that raw courage can (still) come in humble form.
A referral to the campus counseling service is just that, a referral. And to follow-up would have been an invasion of the person’s privacy – that’s HIPPA law at work. Even if the professor who did the referral asked the counseling service, they would have had to refer to HIPPA laws – and not given out any information.
This guy clearly had major issues – and clearly didn’t want any help for them. He started down this path a long time ago, and nothing was going to dissuade him from his self-set task.
Bill, that was a beautiful comment, thank you.
Badbob, you are wrong in your assumption that it was the Carter administration. The first ruling was used during the Nixon administration and was based off an obscure reseach paper written by a psychology grad student that criticised state hospitals and their treatment, or lack there of, of the mentally ill. He could not get it published in psychiatric journals, but was able to publish in a law review journal. A federal judge cited it in a case and *poof* precedent. But every state in the union used it to close state hospitals and treat more people in outpatient settings, liberal and conservative alike.
To answer your question about whether treatment can stop something like this? It can if it occurs soon enough and he agrees there is a problem, and that is the rub. Forcing inpatient is difficult, but forcing medication is incredibly difficult. To have personal freedoms and protections, that is important and there is nothing more intrusive than forcing something [medication or a procedure] into another’s person.
JPR, had they thought he was truly dangerous, they could have had him evaluated by the local Community Services Board Emergency Services for involuntary hospitalization. Either they just thought he was a bit disturbed or the problem may have been more of apathy. Once the referral is made no one appears to have made sure that there was follow through.
“There aren’t any athiests in foxholes!” was a popular buzzword in WWII and Korea. Regardless of one’s degree of religiosity, each of us knows what true EVIL is when we experience it. I believe badbob hit the nail on the head!
The war on terror is a war against EVIL. I’ve heard many of our leaders exclaim that we’re truly engaged in a war against EVIL. EVIL is present in our world; it is everywhere in many forms. I believe that this is yet another example of our need for a Global War on EVIL.
A global war on evil? Let me know how that works for you, will you?
Just for the sake of clarity, if what I am hearing is accurate, you can’t “blame” any administartion (Nixon, Carter or Reagan). If the decisions made were the results of judicial interpretations, then maybe for once you can’t (directly) blame the politicans. Unless of course you think they got what they deserved.
The problem is always in broad brush interpretations – mentally challenged or mentally ill (and let’s always be clear that there is a difference, the results are often deadly and disasterous when the two groups are indiscriminately lumped and housed together), no one size fits all. Of course they “have civl rights”, they are people, aren’t they? While some can function in the community, others need the 24 hour support of an institution. But even many, if not most, in the community still need support. Still, there’s nothing like closing down institutions and saving money, is there? Ah well, when you look at it that way, maybe the politicans do get what they deserve…
doorkeeper, you said elsewhere:
“Currently, in law, we cannot force them to do anything, take meds, get counseling, anything, unless we completely take the right to control their own lives away.”
I was wondering, don’t you have some sort of Adult Protection or other mental health legislation which would at least step in the case of, for example, a schizophrenic who refused to take their medication and became a danger to themselves or others?
Still I am not sure how much this debate really has to do this string of violent shootings of late. I haven’t heard that any of the shooters were released from mental institutions, let alone candidates for one. At least not before their brief moments of infamy.
So how do you prevent this from happening?
I know how you stop evil, and I can shoot.
I don’t know that you can stop it, not every time. Someone who is willing to kill himself is pretty hard to deter.
Bill,
As a Christian myself, your comment gave me chills. What a beautiful thought…
Bill;
I’ve known people with numbers on their arms. They are all mostly gone now. I thank you for your thought.
“So?
“So…Reagan closed the institutions.”
Referring to the closing of mental health institutions in California during the Reagan governorship.
We’ve seen how well that worked out, and it’s easy to blame the governor for the results, but it was the end point of years of effort by activists working to close down mental hospitals as inhumane institutions. (And the results are exactly why some of those same activists turned to blaming the governor.)
They were wrong about the cure for the problem; but it surely didn’t help the victims who too often ended up on the streets unable to deal with living.
It appears as if we have become a nation of people seeking instant gratification in every arena. Want popcorn, nuke it in the microwave. Want to talk while driving, here’s your cell phone; and the similies go on-and-on. This even extends to our quest for personal safety.
There is no guarantee of safety anywhere; Don’t pi*s-off the North Koreans, the Iranians, the Taliban, and we’ll be safe. Didn’t work in 1939 with Germany, and it doesn’t work now.
There is no “safe” pill; the world is full of predators, bad-guys all; and other than the bad-guys, we can’t blame anyone. It is what it is, and it isn’t a perfect world; and there is no universal fix.
In a free society, we are unwilling to pay the price (in loss of freedoms) to insure enhanced security. The ROE’s of the Israeli police and military would not be tolerated here.
VT happened, Oklahoma City happened, University of Texas happened, the killer of the Amish school children happened, the BTK Killer happened, The Boston Strangler happened, The Green River Killer happened, the Night Stalker happened; and it will happen again.
BTW, all the killers listed above were Americans, and only one (the Night Stalker) had any prior significant criminal history.
Therapist1- I stand by my assertion that the Reagan administration (federal) had nothing to do with the 1970’s decisions to shut down state institutions. Now that I read the reference to the State of CA, I can add that it wasn’t the governors decision to make..I just remember coming home to CT in the Carter years and finding out that the State Nut House at Norwich was closed. I asked what happened to the “patients” (inmates). They said they were just released out into society..multiply that times 50 states including CA. Like I said I ain’t no mental health expert but I do remember when/how/where things happened leading us into this “brave” new world…
Michelle- I am no lawyer but here is the rub, again:
“Judicially, it was determined that they have Civil Rights as long as they are not criminally insane and we all know how one gets to be adjudicated as criminally insane- one has to committ a heinous crime first.”
We are a permissive society where individual rights are trumpeted over all and even actual dangers to our welfare are allowed to walk free..Ex- are you following OUR Jessica’s Law saga? BTW, it seems Canada has the same problem(s). I remember an evil looking nut that crossed our border a cuppla years ago after having murdered up in Quebec…
The powerlessness is deafening.
b2
Amen to Bill’s comment. Librescu died as he lived, and said more with his act than the rest of us ever will in the days and years beyond. Maybe he’ll get some MSM coverage as the hero he was. Not being a US soldier should help.
Michelle – no, there are no laws that will force a person to seek counseling, take meds or anything else. Parents can commit their children but only until they turn 18. Then they have to get a court order to do it. Non relatives can’t do anything.
Besides, the person in question has to acknowledge they have a problem before anything else can be done. You can’t force anything on someone who doesn’t even recognize or acknowledges that they have a problem to begin with.
Like Lex said in #14 above – it’s hard, if not impossible, to deter someone who sets themselves on the path that these kinds of people choose, i.e. the list from Bomber Guy in #18 above.
Bill,
Nicely put sir.
Professor Librescu may he reet in peace.
?
Bill,
Nicely put sir.
Professor Librescu may he reet in peace.
“Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends (John 15:13).”
If I learned one thing in my college career, its that evil is impossible to eradicate – and that trying to eliminate “evil” would probably only cause more evil. Evil and good are constants in life, you can only mitigate the one and reinforce the other.
Funny that it was the only conservative prof I know of on campus who taught me that.
So let us celebrate Professor Librescu and the resident assistant Ryan Clark (who gave his life doing his job, caring for the residents of his dorm), the students who were wounded and killed holding doors shut and helping others escape, and the other stories of sheepdogs and heroes that we will learn about as time progresses.
B2, it started before Carter and continued through his administration. Much like BRAC, every year more and more are closed making it more difficult for people like me to stop stuff like this from happening. Especially in a rural are like Blacksburg, and our region of VA has far more resources. AS an example, the republican governor in MD closed another state institution outside Annapolis 3 years ago. So both sides are contributing to the problem. I brought it up not to argue, but to point out how little is understood about mental illness and how political agendas muddy the waters for seeking treatment.
Michelle, Kris is correct. Adult Protective Services is there to protect from abuse and neglect and usually does not kick in until after 62. Here is a real kicker though. In VA you have the right to refuse inpatient hospitalization at the age of 14 regardless of your parent’s wants or wishes. Prior to that age it is the responsibility of the parent to get the child to the hospital. That could be over 3 hours away and in some cases the child may have just seriously assaulted you.
Perhaps a Global War on EVIL is the wrong call? The path to a solution of any problem is started with the admission of the existence of the problem. While many wish to make the GWOE, the true cause of terror, politically incorrect, my suggestion is that admitting the problem is EVIL may put us on the path to an answer.
As a Christian, I believe that God and Evil exist. I believe that in order to conquer Evil we must acknowledge that it is the true source of what is going on in our world. Iraq, Afghanistan, Virginia Tech, Oklahoma City, Columbine… it doesn’t matter. I believe that all of these horrors are caused by Evil.
I believe that rather than posting news story after news story about the perpetrator, whether it’s Al Quaida or the S. Korean gunman, we should be finding stories such as that of Librescu to celebrate and honor.
Columbine survivors have formed speaking organizations promoting exactly this method of honoring the fallen rather than the Evil doer. They have prevented and stopped several copy cat shootings and suicides by emphasizing the positive, GOOD, as opposed to repeating the statistics of the shooters/bombers/killers.
I belive that Evil is present in our world and that while many do accept that concept, the presence of Evil is real. We must work for GOOD to counter EVIL! This would be my suggestion for the Global War on Evil.
Editorial Correction: (In the last paragraph, first sentence I intended to say the follow):
“I believe that Evil is present in our world and that while many do NOT accept that concept, the presence of Evil is real nonetheless.”
Sorry about that!
“We are a permissive society where individual rights are trumpeted over all and even actual dangers to our welfare are allowed to walk free..Ex- are you following OUR Jessica?
“We are a permissive society where individual rights are trumpeted over all and even actual dangers to our welfare are allowed to walk free..Ex- are you following OUR Jessica’s Law saga? BTW, it seems Canada has the same problem(s). I remember an evil looking nut that crossed our border a cuppla years ago after having murdered up in Quebec…”
I’ve heard of Jessica’s Law, but no, I don’t know exactly what you are refering to??
Yep, we all have “nut cases” (sorry, me bad, its late and its been a long day) but I’m still not entirely sure of your point B2. We have given civil rights/Charter rights to everyone and their dog, do the mentally ill deserve any less? The rub (popular expession around here lately) is in the balance. Not always (ever?) easy to do but that doesn’t mean we’re not obligated to try….
Therapist/Kris, interesting….
Its not like we’ve found the answer here (eureka!) but I have seen adult protection legislation used with adults of any age in the community (some with schizophrenia as I gave in my example) who might be safe “where they are” except they’re not realizing their problems and not taking their meds. So as it all starts to go downhill…
We have also recently passed new mental health legislation around involuntary psychiatric treatment (which has at least as many, if not more, critics as it does proponents) but many of these people are still ending up in the criminal justice system. So far, for “minor” offences but still…..ask how well that works. I do like the few recent cases though where the judge has ordered the sheriff to take the little own lady down to Dept of Community Services offices and stay there with her until THEY find her appropriate housing awaiting the next court appearance.
Peter, you don’t need to convince me as to the existence of evil in the world. Unfortunately, to a certain extent anyway, it almost seems to be related to pornography….as in, “I’ll know it when I see it”. NOT that it should be so subjective.
My biggest beef with the use of the term “evil” (and this isn’t with how you used it) is using it too indiscriminately. To throw it around too easily, to joke with it, runs the risk of it losing its very vital meaning. As much as I wouldn’t want to use the word “love” in certain contexts unless I knew I really meant it, a thousand times more I would not want to casually throw around the term “evil”. Like I said though, that has nothing to do with your comment.
Its just that a Global War on EVIL… while I like the concept, from a practical point of view, might best be left up to God. For us mere mortals, one item of evil at a time I suppose, and we will no doubt mess that up. Not that we can allow that to stop us from trying…
An old adage that still rings so true…”All that is required for evil to overcome in this world is for enough good men(and women) to do nothing…”
Peter, you don?
Peter, you don’t need to convince me as to the existence of evil in the world. Unfortunately, to a certain extent anyway, it almost seems to be related to pornography….as in, “I’ll know it when I see it”. NOT that it should be so subjective.
Michelle, as the GEICO commercial Caveman says, “What?”
Pornography???
Bill C re-states it best! Edmund Burke said it first: “All that is required for evil to overcome in this world is for enough good men (and women (sic))to do nothing…”
God has given man “Free Will”; some people say, “the Devil made me do it”. So true!
Peter
A Canuckism, perhaps, from the 80’s I think. A judge or politican who was trying to nail down the definition of pornography, of what would “offend community standards of decency” made the comment “I’ll know it when I see it”. Rather subjective unless everyone is working off the same page. I was simply suggesting that some might make the same comment about “evil”, hard to come up with one definitive definition (?) but everyone should recognize when they see an example of it.
Not fair, heh, to use one of my favourite quotes against me, Bill. I agree 110% although I must say its funny, some of those here think it would be too egotistical to believe that humans could be a “cause” of climate change and yet …
But don’t get me wrong, I have no use for “the Devil made me do it”, “but my family was DYSfunctional…” and all the other varieties of this refrain. No matter where we come from, we all have choice. Although I suppose the exercise of that choice might be easier or not, depending on your history. Still, each of us will stand or fall on our own.
Michelle,
Jessica’s Law saga refers to the attempt to lobby the states to enact tougher laws on pedophile criminality.
Even those MONSTERS have civil rights here..They being severly “broken toys” who can NEVER be reformed/cured. Never.
The Canadian nut I refer to is that monster who made it from the Maritimes (N.B.?) to Massachusetts a few years back after a mass murder, who had that wild looking Mohawk and a Charlie Manson gleam…
The question is. When do you suspend those civil rights? I say when you arn’t behaving like a civilized human being. I can define what those limits should be, judgemnental S.O.B. that I am, but a real citizen debate without lawyers/judges, greasy politicians should define those limits.
re “Not always (ever?) easy to do but that doesn?
Michelle,
Jessica’s Law saga refers to the attempt to lobby the states to enact tougher laws on pedophile criminality.
Even those MONSTERS have civil rights here..They being severly “broken toys” who can NEVER be reformed/cured. Never.
The Canadian nut I refer to is that monster who made it from the Maritimes (N.B.?) to Massachusetts a few years back after a mass murder, who had that wild looking Mohawk and a Charlie Manson gleam…
The question is. When do you suspend those civil rights? I say when you arn’t behaving like a civilized human being. I can define what those limits should be, judgemnental S.O.B. that I am, but a real citizen debate without lawyers/judges, greasy politicians should define those limits.
re “Not always (ever?) easy to do but that doesn’t mean we’re not obligated to try….”
Sounds noble, but I would prefer to make a few mistakes and incarcerate the worst. Principle is fine on paper while public safety comes first.
But then, W.T.F.D.I.K.? Not a lawyer, not a philosopher, just a sheepdog ret.
b2
On choices and dysfunctionals – it’s amazing how many people say they couldn’t control themselves, and how few have said that when they were standing next to a policeman.
B2 says: “…The question is. When do you suspend those civil rights? I say when you arn?
B2 says: “…The question is. When do you suspend those civil rights? I say when you arn’t behaving like a civilized human being…”
And I couldn’t agree with you more! Especially when it comes to pedophiles and those who commit any kind of sexual assault. They may be “emotionally broken” but that doesn’t give them a free pass…
To Lex’s larger point (and in agreement with Michelle in #30 above) – I don’t particularly care if your family was dysfunctional (mine was), or if you suffered as a child or even as an adult. It doesn’t give you a lifelong excuse for bad judgment and behavior. And to Lex’s point on another post – if you don’t want to seek help to get past these experiences, if there are perceived injustices in your life that you can’t reconcile, and you make the decision to end your own life – do it ALONE.
I believe in evil, and I make no excuses for his actions. They were wrong and effected numerous families directly and other indirectly. Having dealt with the criminally insane and seen how some of them can be full of guilt for their past actions, we cannot know until we are able to cure the illness that sometimes terrorizes them. For example, a former client of mine brutally killed his cousin while paranoid, psychotic and delusional. He spent 11 years in a hospital and was released to a residential program, and makes sure he takes medication that gives him diabetes, chronic bowel obstruction, and involuntary movements because it is the only thing that works for him and he, “feels so bad for what I’ve done”. Clearly an evil act to stab someone 32 times, but not an evil man. Unfortunately the shooter’s decision will never permit us to discover the good these other people could bring, or the person he could be. Free will is sometimes a terrible burden.
Therapist, I like the differing perspective you bring to the discussion(s).
B2, I think we all belong to the W.T.F.D.I.K. Club. Question is just whether or not we realize it. Yeah, I know the
Canadianguy you were referring to. As I recall I believe he had dual citizenship which was why they said they “had to” let him cross the border. So I guess we get to share the joy on that one.I must beg to differ on your self-characterization though … perhaps sheepdog (ret) philosopher might be more apt? ICSFTH