I grew up in Virginia during a time when the federal government had something of a laissez-faire attitude towards state laws on the sale of alcohol, at least with regards to the age of consumption. The Old Dominion permitted residents the taste of a beer at age 18, and strong spirits at age 21, unless we troubled ourselves to drive across into Washington, D.C. where both were to be had for the asking at 18.
The move to regularize the law across state borders through coercive language in federal highway funds is probably on balance a good thing – who knows how many teenage lives have been lost over the years driving back from a more permissive neighboring state or county. And even the counter-argument that a eighteen year old who really wants to get a beer will find a way to get one regardless of the statutes does not mean that we, as a society, must necessarily endorse that decision.
I was just a wee nobbut during the Vietnam war, but I remember distinctly being on a trip with my father one summer, I think it was down in Texas. We were at an airport bar with my parents when a wounded soldier hobbled up to the bartender on crutches and asked for a beer. The bartender turned the kid down – at 19, he was apparently too young to drink in that part of Texas in 1969.
My dad – part of the greatest generation, and a merchant sailor who had navigated the treacherous Murmansk Run on many occasions – walked up to the bartender, leaned up close to him and whispered into his ear. As my father’s son, I recognized the body language and knew that the bartender was “enjoying” a brief but exciting conversation with the old man.
When my dad got back to the table, my mom asked him what he’d said. He replied that any man who had the courage to answer his country’s call to duty, serve in a combat zone at risk of life and limb, kill for his country and maybe get killed right back and come back home after all of that wounded had better damned well be able to buy a beer when he wants one.
What did he say, my mom asked.
He said that this county had a law and he could lose his license, my dad replied. I told him to sell me the beer and look the other way, but if that soldier didn’t get his beer he’d stand to lose more than just his license. The long and the short of it was that the young soldier got to rest his crutches by the bar, and got to drink his beer.
Which is maybe on reason why I’m disinclined to tut-tut over the notion of the Marine Corps easing the regs a bit and allowing “underage” Marines the chance to drink a celebratory beer on special occasions, such as returning from a combat zone, or on the Corps’ birthday. And it surprised me to discover that, unlike the Sailors who are forced to carry them around from port to port, it wasn’t until recently that under-21 Marines were permitted an adult beverage in a foreign port whose national laws would have otherwise permitted it.
There’s nothing inherently glamorous about alcohol or drinking, but neither is their anything inherently awful about a man who’s trusted to hoist a rifle in his country’s service and make life or death decisions while doing so hoisting a malted beverage under controlled circumstances. Warriors have been doing so for a number of years, as I believe.
Faced with the sourly inevitable disapproval of the professionally teetotling and personally abstemious class, it would have probably been a little easier on Marine Corps leadership to “just say no” and rest on the status quo. Hat’s off to the Corps for doing the right thing.
Hell yeah!
Lex,
Back in the day, all of the soda machines in the barracks had a few slots reserved for beer, and no one cared about who was procuring them. I didn’t join the Navy until after I was 21, but the alcohol age laws never seemed to make much sense to me, on many levels.
Recently, I had a very strong and long debate with the assistant District Attorney up here regarding under-age drinking. She had signed on for stronger enforcement of under-21 laws and increased penalties. Her underlining argumnet was that those under 21 did not have sufficient judgement to make a call about drinking.
I told her she was nuts, and extremely hypocritical. I said that, following her argument, it’s no wonder she was reelected, because a large portion of her voting block was those irrational, irresposible under 21 year olds.
My points to her wa that, at age 18, a person can do the following in our stste.
a.) vote in local, state. and federal elections.
b.) get married and have children.
c.) buy a home.
d.) but a rifle or shotgun.
e.) enter into a legally-binding contract.
f.) make a decision regarding medical choices, including abortion.
g.) get a credit card.
h.) buy a car and operate it anywhere.
For all of these things, the 18 year old is considered a legal, responsible adult by the state and the legal system, capable of knowing right from wrong and making an informed choice.
Only with alcohol is there a different standard.
This nation either needs to lower the drinking age to 18, or raise the age of majority for all things to 21. It cannot logically and morally continue to treat someone as an adult yet deny them the priviledges and rights of being an adult.
It’s an all or nothing thing.
Respects,
I’m with Tim on this one.
Never had a problem with this issue.
When I returned from Boot-camp as a 17 yr old all I had to do was flash the Green ID.
YES SIR, one beer coming up! drinking age at the time was 18.
After that was Germany for 3 years, and of course no problemo. MMMUUUHHH Guttgarter HofBrau anyone!
My next younger brother got screwed twice, once when the powers that be upped the age to 19 after being legal for 6 months and again the next year to 21 after being legal for another 6 months.
He still gripes about that, every once in a while.
Having served 31 years in the fire service, I have observed first hand the results of drimking and driving. Which of course was the main arguement for raising the minimum drinking age. That young citizens were not responsible to handle both.
In my humble observations the increase in the drinking age did reduce the accident rate for a few years, but the rate climbed again as the new drinkers came of age.
The point being is that the first few years, regardless of age, a person discovers drinking and driving the accident rate is high until they discover their limit.
I could never understand how a person 18 to 20 years of age could be of consent for a great deal of responsibility,. but yet not be legally permitted to hoist a drink. Hysteria does shape public opinion despite rational arguements.
Here’s to our warriors, a toast of thanks.
CJK
Prior to obtaining a DOD/Navy ID Card I had a hand laminated Navy Delayed Entry Program [DEP] Card, devoid of any kind of a birth date. It got me beers all the time. I never questioned it’s powers, but bartenders never even looked for the DOB. All they saw was Navy I guess.
On another side note, there is a particular ‘Gentleman’s Club’ in Providence, RI that is [was ? - 1996ish] privy to all military kind. Even to my fresh green ID Card with my printed DOB, that when added up only equaled the better part of 17. It was only a $60 cab ride from the barracks NETC Newport to the front door.
Long and Short is that you will find what you are looking for if you look hard enough.
What if they made it a choice? You can drink at 18 if you swap your driver’s license out for 3 years [18-21]. That would be an interesting poll…
Just Nanny State woes during a time of global war for existence against Islamists Facists poised to develop nuclear weapons.
Simple illogic. Just like everything 50-60% of the citizen sheep in the US push daily. Not amazing to me, I knew 30 years ago my boomer generation would screw things up if push came to shove…F’weak.
It’s amazing we can find enough warriors to do what we’re doing with gloves on…
b2
There is not a law enforcement agency in the country that will go along with serving 18 year olds. The problem is not the returning combat vet, it is the 15 or 16 year old passing themselves off as 18. Years ago many states lowered the drinking age, the highway stats were not pretty, so up it went back to 21.
Bill C,
Please don’t take this the wrong way. It’s just that I could care less what any law enforcement agency has to say about the issue.
Either an 18 year old is competant enough to know right from wrong, and make an informed decision, or he/she is not. If they are NOT responsible enough to do the right thing, then why are they allowed to join the military, or vote for elected officials. I suppose that an argument COULD be made that they are irrational, unable to make informed choices, since the Dems managed to get elected again, but that’s too easy.
I am the parent of three chuildren, of which the older is 20 and the other 18. I have done my best to see they get a good education and are as well equipprd as can be to make responsible decisions. They still, however, must learn by doing and example. It’s the way it works.
Good choices come from experience. Experience comes from bad choices.
Respects,
“Faced with the sourly inevitable disapproval of the professionally teetotling and personally abstemious class, it would have probably been a little easier on Marine Corps leadership to ?
“Faced with the sourly inevitable disapproval of the professionally teetotling and personally abstemious class, it would have probably been a little easier on Marine Corps leadership to “just say no” and rest on the status quo. Hat’s off to the Corps for doing the right thing.”
…unlike the Air Farce leadership where you get kicked out for being busted for drinking underage. Zero tolerance. One of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard of.
If you’re old enough to take a bullet and die for your country, you should be able to have a beer as well.
Period.
AW1 Tim…
You say, “Please don’t take this the wrong way. It’s just that I could CARE LESS what any law enforcement agency has to say about the issue.”
While I may agree that an 18-year old may be able to make the decision and handle the brew, we may NOT pick and choose which laws we follow. Wouldn’t that be anarchy? I think we on the right care MORE, not less.
Ours is a nation of laws and excuse me for being so plain, but I thought that’s what we fought/fight for?
The left side of the world is one of situational ethics and we, the right, believe in respect for and abiding by the law. How can we pick and choose which laws we like or don’t like and still be true to our core beliefs?
Personally, I waited until I was 21. I believed that I owed that to my parents and the society of which I was a member. That was my choice. Others may make their own choices, but please don’t set foot on the slippery slope of saying you “care less” when one chooses to violate a legal law. We simply don’t get to “choose” which laws we like.
I enjoy your comments and agree with your well-written thoughts… almost always; this time is an exception.
#1 Lower the drinking age to 18 on all military facilities.
#2 Leadership models responsible imbibing behavior.
#3 Enjoy warrior bonding with EARNED adult beverages.
#4 Next day back to business defending the Nation.
Oh, and the Nanny State fussbudgets? Ask THEM exactly why more average 21 year olds aren’t involved in #4?
Their likely non-answer: “…Well, um… that would be -ah- dangerous..and, and… uh…Unsafe! Yes, that’s it!…Children could get hurt!”
Hmmm…Yes, their mothers all know what they do is hazardous, but no, they aren’t children any longer. What gives?
Apparently danger, hardships and separations are OK for ‘some’ teenagers, but not others, eh? So tell us then –which ones are the “grown-ups”? These kids are doing what you won’t do.
Watch them squirm.
I respectfully disagree with you Lex. I was never enamored with alcohol so I never drank until I was 21, but I am no teetotler. My line of work deals with the after effects of the underage drinker, the debriefing of the family and friends post mortum. I have also had the unpleasant experience of watching 2 Marines back from the war being “detained” to local Psych hospitals while drunk, suffering from PTSD and either suicidal/homicidal. One tried to strike an officer. A good guy and a former Marine who was able to bring the kid in for some help rather than push his face through the pavement and arrest him. Along with this bending of the rules, I just wish they would teach better ways of dealing with their frustration and stress other than the Ole Marine Grenade.
This is getting interesting…
I agree with your 4 point program for military bases, Capt J. I especially like the part about “leadership models responsible…” and “EARNED” in numbers 2 & 3.
I’m not so keen on the “Nanny State fussbudgets” moniker, however. Concurring with Therapist1 as to the negative after-effects of alcohol, I would offer that many an honest and responsible citizen has no need for it. It’s their choice, right?
I’ll always remember a wedding reception I attended with my parents held in an early spring Iowa farmhouse. The man of the house “stiffed” the parson, dipping into the envelope to send runners for more spirits. He loved them so!
The dairy farm was plagued with the normal shmud!t barnyard. (You see, it rains in Iowa during April and the normal mud and manure barn yard was transformed into a swamp of the boot sucking-quick-sh!t.)
My father went with the drunken dairyman to the barn to watch the obligatory milking; both men leaving boot-sucking-holes in the shmud!t. The farmer’s son and I followed, leaping from one of our father’s steps to the next.
There we were, following in our fathers’ footsteps…
Not the responsible leadership modeling you speak of! But…shmud!t happens.
There are people, good and true, who do serve… and serve well!… but choose to honor all of the rules… including those about drinking.
Certainly they’re not the “fussbudgets” of whom you speak?!
On November 10, 1775 the United States Marine Corps was officially formed by a vote of the Continental Congress. Robert Mullan was appointed to raise two companies of Marines. Mullan was also the proprietor of Tun Tavern which had a long reputation for having the best beer in Philadelphia. So it was that the very first Continental Marines were recruited in Tun Tavern, and it became the birthplace of the U.S. Marine Corps…
It wasn’t that long ago that all Marines could drink on base, but not in the barracks. It seemed to work. Payday Fridays were sure to be eventful for the duty standers. Then came the decade of puritanism. The pendulum swings back.
We used to go out to Camp Wilson at 29 Palms for four months at a slug. Duty in the field, tents, dirt floors, and the Marine Corps 28-day field menu, lmao. As a salty 1stLt, back when it took Marines five years to make Captain, I volunteered for the additional duty of Morale Officer. Hell, I had to point out that we’d need one. Nobody else wanted the extra work, so all were in agreement. There were a lot of benefits to that job, not the least of which was sending a man back to San Diego each week to make the movie run. The greatest of all though, was that I became the local Inn Keeper.
I dutifully passed on the CO’s guidance to all that there was a two beer limit, and added that if there was ever a problem with fighting, or injuries, there’d be no more cold beer. Aside from the CO, the officers were mostly good eggs, and understood the concept of a blind eye.
One afternoon, the good Major opined that he suspected that some Marines might be drinking more than their allotted two beers. I strongly protested that this could not possibly be, since everyone clearly understood that two was the limit. He wondered aloud why anyone would ever want more than two beers. That statement says more about the man than you’ll ever care or need to know.
I was only called out to keep the peace once, and the Marine in question had some honerous inner demons, unrelated to drink. The NCO’s and SNCO’s kept things on course, and the Marines’ day to day burden was lifted a tad. I’m kind of proud of that.
18 was and is the right age for the drinking age, especially when someone can get shot at for their country t that age.
Studies have been done that point out that the law change led to unintended consequences. Underage binge drinking has actually increased.
Because guys don’t want something until you tell them they can’t have it. Then they have to have it. Applies to beer and other things
The thing here isn’t the maturity or the responsibility of the person, it’s that a law is needed and a law needs to be applied evenly. People don’t grow up and mature evenly.
So we say you can’t drive until you’re 14 with a permit and an adult, but I was driving a tractor (read: heavy equipment) at 6 and a semi at age 12. We say you can’t have a beer until 21 but at 16 you can have a 2200lbs missile at 75mph and we think a showing of “Blood on the Highway” in drivers ed is enough to end distraction while behind the wheel. You have to give the kids some leash and let them run before you can see if they’ll take the responsibility seriously, and scaring them doesn’t make them responsible.
I remember drinking at age 18. Thought it was kind of nifty, being able to belly up to the bar and order a beer and be all adult and stuff. Then stoking the fire came at 0600 and chores at 0700 and suddenly the barfly lifestyle wasn’t one I thought I could keep up.
To me, if you made it though basic you can drink without supervision, and if rank and peers are available so much the better. That shows responsbility far more than any age can. Otherwise, at some point we have to consider you an adult and consider you responsible, so the older I grow the more I think that age should be 35 or so. You know, about the time a guy realizes he’s mortal.
– Max
I like what CPT J has to say. In my neck of the woods there are several Indian (Native Americans for the PC crowd)Reservations. They have their own ATF laws. A state within a state. I’m thinking if it works for them, it could work for the Military Reservations as well. As for a magic age…what’s magic about 18? I enlisted at age 17. If you’re old enough for boot camp…
How about just letting 18 year olds who are on Active Duty and have a valid military ID with a “P”, for priviliged, drink responsibly as adults? The “P” of course is up to Command authority as an incentive to be used selectively.
IMO, an individual proves he/she is a reponsible adult and a “better” citizen by serving. Why not reward that and make them different? They deserve it. I wouldn’t view this as a recruiting tool but it sure would emphasis the difference in the maturity level between the troops and the average 18-21 year old who can’t handle responsibility.
Makes to much sense huh?
b2
I don’t disagree in principal with the pernicious effects of demon rum in either the moral or physical sphere. And yet, it seems to me that young men who have fought side by side and returned to camp will find a way to get a beer or two from their senior comrades regardless of what the law says.
Since that’s undeniably true, it seems to me useful for leadership to both demonstrate in a controlled environment the most proper way of enjoying an adult beverage and have the unique opportunity to observe the behaviors of those they have the privilege to command in that same environment. Anyone who cannot properly ration himself under those circumstances is probably someone worth having a professional examine more closely at a later time.
You may not identify all potential victims of self-abuse in this way, but you will know the worst ones.
And like others have said, if a man is good enough to die for me, then he’s good enough to tip a glass with me as well.
BRAVO ZULA to the USMC.
I agree with CPT J. Let commanders command and take responsibility for their Soldiers/ Marines/Sailors/Coast Guardsmen/Airmen when these men and women (and yes, they are men & women at this age when they serve) gather at Fiddlers Green.
Back in teh day, we managed this as leaders…kept it on post and under control.
Made for better units IMHO.
PeterGunn,
My friend, you mistake the meaning of my comments, for which I must humbly beg the excuse of poor communications.
My comments vis-a-vis Law Enforcement were meant to indicate that I am suspicious anytime Law Enforcement supports new legislation, or legislation of any kind.
That is not meant as disrespect to LEO’s, in any way shape or design. It is simply that I can see great opportunity for nefariousness when those who write the laws collude with those who enforce them.
Law Enforcement is never easy, even under the best circumstances. It is stressful, fraught with danger from many sources, and can lead to early burnout.
However, in many many cases, LEA’s seek to lessen their burden through legislation which can potentially severely restrict individual and collective freedoms. It’s that part that concerns me.
Lookit what these things have brought about already: Mandatory helmet and seat belt laws. Mandatory insurance. Firearms liscences, registration, gun locks, state-controlled liquor stores. Police input on liquor liscences. Hate crime laws. Assault gun bands. etc etc etc.
Certainly, each and every one of these causes can be viewed as “public safety” issues, but in fact, they are taking away personal choice AS WELL AS personal responsibility.
The Police exist to enforce the laws, and to assist us in protecting ourselves. They are NOT there to protect us. Having them get involved in the law making process frightens me to no end, because everytime a law is enacted, some small piece of our personal freedom goes away.
I am not dissing LEA’s. I am saying that I never want to hear from then regarding potential legislation. That is too great a conflict of interest for these old bones.
Respects,
Gotta get to the liquor store before it closes at 5 today. I’ll be back…
“Anyone who cannot properly ration himself under those circumstances is probably someone worth having a professional examine more closely at a later time.”
A very sane and sailorly view Lex, lmao. You first.
Ale, man, ale?
“Anyone who cannot properly ration himself under those circumstances is probably someone worth having a professional examine more closely at a later time.”
A very sane and sailorly view Lex, lmao. You first.
Ale, man, ale’s the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world’s not.
And faith, ’tis pleasant till ’tis past:
The mischief is that ’twill not last.
Oh I have been to Ludlow fair
And left my necktie God knows where,
And carried half way home, or near,
Pints and quarts of Ludlow beer:
Then the world seemed none so bad,
And I myself a sterling lad;
And down in lovely muck I’ve lain,
Happy till I woke again.
Then I saw the morning sky:
Heigho, the tale was all a lie;
The world, it was the old world yet,
I was I, my things were wet,
And nothing now remained to do
But begin the game anew.
*whistling through the graveyard*
Anybody seen HFS?
*drags self out of bed and searches for Motrin*
I’m here. Whatcha need?
Tim ~ I couldn’t agree with you more regarding the role of the police in our lives. Had I nodded my head in agreement any more than I am right now, I’m afraid it would explode. Then again, that might be due to the night I had last night.
*sigh* Back to bed.
Tim, are you quite sure you don’t have any autistic traits? I mean, musician and Sonar guy, makes rational arguments about the crazy drinking-age laws, and all?
People do vary, and grow up at different rates.
There was a guy who lied about his age to enlist in the USMC and got a Medal of Honor at Iwo Jima. After he go out of the hospital, he went home and finished up and graduated at his high school.
Car insurance firms generally give you a break on your rates once you turn twenty-five.
I think I read somewhere, that if one is younger than 18, he is too rash to be a fighter pilot, but if he is older than 25, he is too prudent.
Just my random reactive thoughts
One of my favorite memories from the Army, an early one that impressed me favorably about the soldier’s life, is from my 1st duty station, HHC 1Bde 2ID. After returning from a hard field exercise, we had a company barbecue. As we came off the serving line with our burgers and whatnot, the 1SG personally handed a beer to each us, never mind our age – we were soldiers, men (and women).
Sitting here at work blogging rather than attending to my duties on this Memorial Day. I want to say that I appreciate the decorum with which the visitors to this site express themselves. This can be a controversial subject and I thank you.
Lex, I have see people step into too late too often because they judge based upon their experiences. I am not an alcoholic, I just have 4 beers per day and he as at least 8. He is the alcoholic. The truth is that it does not take a lot of alcohol to cause metabolic changes in the individual. 4-5 drinks per day over a period of months can initiate siezure activity when the alcohol is stopped. I hope the military just keeps an eye on these young men and women to prevent them from developing a problem that could cause long term issues. Let them drink on Post where they can be contained and you know they are not driving, should they return drinking and driving, throw the book at them as the civilian courts have learned to do. More importantly though, get them help and a professional to see if it truly is more of a problem than they believe. Reading this post makes me think of my hunting buddy who is a former Marine. He rolled his car while off post drinking and driving, and broke his neck. He looked like Frankenstein in the device to stabilize him, but he too had a serious problem with alcohol that went unnoticed as he was compared to others who drank more. If he had been referred out for help sooner, maybe he would not have had the accident.
Tim, your cynicism is well deserved. I work with police and they like any other organization are out to protect their own interests.
Last year I sat at the bar in the American Legion and watched as a father and his son, a soldier who was in his dress uniform, waited until just after midnight and then ordered each of them a bottle of beer. His son had just turned 21 and his leave was up later that day. The soldier had already had one tour in Iraq and was going back for another. I really don’t care one way or another what the drinking age is. That isn’t the issue here. The issue is the faulty logic behind these laws. The primary arguement is that a person isn’t responsible enough to handle alcohol until they are 21, that they have to be protected from alcohol until that time. It all comes down to rights and responsibilities. It used to be that a person was considered a minor until their 18th birthday. The intent was to protect a person from themselves and others until they learned to do it themselves. Now we charge 13 and 14 year olds as adults and hold them fully responsible for their actions. In my opinion, as soon as we started doing this age limits became obsolete. Now you have all of the responsibilities and obligations as well as the penalties of an adult at the much earlier age, there is no excuse for you not to have the privileges as well.
By the way I bought those first two beers.