Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
First they drop the “A” from F/A-18. You can already see the AEW mission going UAV. Pretty soon fleet defense is outsourced. And the Air Force is trying to grab control. Life is getting more like a video game, isn’t it?
A *stealth* tanker?!
August 10, 2023
?
August 10, 2023
“Hickam AFB, HI – Air Force Captain Bob Smith is sitting in his office at Hickam AFB. Although he wears a flight suit and has pilot’s wings, he hasn’t flown a real fighter since flight school. Once he received his wings, he was placed in the Unmanned Arial Vehicle (UAV) pipeline, a career path for USAF pilots who specialize in piloting remote aircraft. All of the flying he does is from a room in the basement of his building in Hawaii, no mater where his “plane” is. What makes him special is that he’s the first Air Force officer assigned to fly UAVs off of aircraft carriers. “The Navy’s purpose is to get our planes near shore. From the moment my jet leaves the pointy end of the boat, they’re under strict Air Force control.”…”
CPT Smith goes on to say how great the Navy maintainers are, and how none of the glory heaped onto people like himself would be possible with out the Navy, blah, blah, blah.
It could happen.
I wonder how many of these they’ll have to crash into the fantail before the LSO’s union goes on strike.
Nah Lex. We already got this stuff. Where ya been?
http://www.imdb.com/gallery/ss/0382992/19SO01.jpg.html
b2
Query… Will the initial mission endurance capability of 50 to 100 hours for these un-holy beasts essentially obviate the need for the aircraft carrier at all? Best
Grumman strikes back. All their planes got taken off the boat, you think they’re just going to sit by and let Boeing have all the fun?
In my totally amateur opinion, the carrier(s) are still needed for the same reasons they are needed now: no need to rely on foreign land bases and reduced time to target/faster turnaround (vis a vis launching from some place like Diego Garcia, or Continental US).
cheers,
BeachBum
UAV Tanker:
“HAL, Open the refueling bay doors, please.”
“I’m sorry Lex, I can’t do that.”
And if it’s stealthy:
Hornet Pilot “Screwtop, tanker posit?”
Screwtop “Uh, I don’t know.”
Cats and dogs living together, I tell ya. (Not that anything’s wrong with that.)
N
Shipmates,
Well, I offer that, with the AF getting all uppity about UAV’s, etc, it’s high time we formed a comittee to press congress to disestablish the Air Force and return it’s personell and equipment where they belong: The Army and The Navy.
Let the Army take over the Strategic Bombardment forces, to include land-based ICBM’s. They can also find get rid of that stupid “no fixed-wing attack aircraft” rule, and get some TacAir pliots who are on their side, besides the Navy & marines, that is.
The Navy can take over Space Command, sattelites, etc, and all the associated launch hardware.
The remaining AF types? Keep ‘em on the payroll for a couple years. Let them hang around the club, files papers, have dress parades, go golfing, play video games. They probably woudn’t notice the changes anyway.
‘Cept maybe when they realized all their aircraft were being fitted with tailhooks….. bwahahahahahaha…..
Seriously. The AF has outlived it’s usefulness. It was a cute experiment, in early PC, sort of a military multi-cultural thing, but Spaatz and LeMay are gone. Sac is gone. Let’s ease out what’s left so the rest of us can afford to continue the mission, unencumbered by multi-level beauracracy and profligate, unnecesary, spending.
Respects,
AW1 Tim for president!
Once upon a time, back in the 80′s off Panama, one of my former shipmates was now aboard and FF, doing counter drug ops in the Gulf of Mexico.
They weren’t clued in that the invasion was going to happen, but…late one night, there was an F-117 pilot on the radio howling for gas (so what’s new?). He wanted a steer to the tanker, and all the poor AICs could do was to say…”dude, we can’t see you.”
Anyhow, someone talked the KC-10 (I think that was it) into turning on their lights, so the poor, about to get wet guy flying a plane that didn’t exist, could use VFR to get out of trouble…he did get his drink, with very few lbs left on the gauges when he plugged in.
True sea story, shipmates!
AW1
I plan to use that quote in Korea. I now more than few USAF types who will spin up upon reading it……..
“Its a great way of life”.
Gee. I was hoping these comments would go beyond simple USAF bashing (always fun though!) and snark. So I’ll dive in:
Aha- a long-loiter capability (persistence) and a tanker to boot while 80% the size of a SuperHornet?
I see it! It’s the true replacement for the S-3B! Not the SuperHornet. That was a temporary half-baked solution!
Do you know that if someone in the leadership of this Navy of today, EVEN at this late stage, had the Cohones to, in effect, say they were wrong….That for less than that 1.2 billion Rick bandies about in Fulhgman’s article (we know Rick- don’t we?), the USN could recapitalize the S-3B (~80) w/ISR/C4I/sensors and reinsert “Romeo” level ASW back in ..and it would be good for another 30 years….OBTW- the ARS would still be on the left wing. As a result beyond the obvious mission gains/regains, the SuperHornets would last longer and be more effective, dozens of billions would be saved/deferred, and perhaps me might get away buying less MMAs….
If only THEY had the Cohones.
That’s why it’ll never happen. Sorta ironical they ‘indict’ the past leaders for all kinds of bad things cultural that have happened since ’91, but won’t touch just plain “stupid” operational resource decisions.
Any special interest groups or Naval aviation leadership folks who have OD’d on the Koolaid out there have any comment?
b2
I suggest AW1 for Secretary of Offense for starters. Then when he gets his sea legs in politics, then set him up for President!
Gentlemen, et al,
While humbled by your support I must beg your pardon for the sloppiness of my earlier missive. I should have paid more attention to the grammar and less to the speed of my reply.
Having said that, I will state once more my opposition (not that any in power will actually take notice, mind you) to the Key West Agreement, a memorandum of understanding that, I feel, not only has outlived it’s usefulness, but is an impediment to the future development and employment of our armed forces.
In fact, the protocols agreed to in that document limit the Army aviation to “reconassaince and medical evacuation” and Naval Aviation assets to those required to support naval actions and assets. All other aviation missions were to be reserved for the Air Force. I find that short-sighted and dangerously unrealistic.
The solution? A complete rethinking and reorganisation of all of the nation’s military.
It starts at the top with a return to a War Department. That is then supported by departments of the Army, Navy,& Coast Guard. Personally, if the Posse Comitatus act were undone, the Coast Guard could be absorbed into the Navy Department, similar to how the Marines are aligned.
Comrades, we face tremendous wastes of resources every day through competing service agendas, schools, academies, recruiting commands, training facilities, aquisitione programs, developmental costs, etc. We all know this. It’s like the Emperor’s New Clothes. The folks who are in leadership positions simply do not want to adress this issue, and as a result, precious finacial and human resources are squandered. This is especially egregious in a time of war.
Anyway, that’s enough for now. I have some specific ideas of where I’d merge programs and facilities. I’ll leave that for another time, or perhaps a guest post someday.
I’ve nothing but respect for my Air Force comrades. They are great aviators. They are not, of course, Naval Aviators, but they are nonetheless great
I will be the first to defend their honour and traditions. However, there is no need for them to be a seperate armed force. That day has long sinced past, and with our current level of technologies and cross-cultural missions, the excuses for maintaining such a division of labour become more thin with each passing budget.
Respects,
My brother works for this company, they’ve made an F-18 refuel better than Captain Lex, without the bother of Captain Lex even having to be there:
http://www.darpa.mil/body/news/2007/aard.pdf
Jim,
Which is why they must be dealt with, and soon…..
Those who would remove the pilot from the equation have no business being involved with any part of the program.
When folks start pushing UAV’s, it gets personal, and I, for one, will have none of it. It’s the same sort of brainless attitude that nearly got our *sses handed to us in Vietnam, saying that “guns are so passe”. Now it’s “there’s no pressing need for an onboard pilot”.
Scr@w that. The only airframe that doesn’t need a pilot is a cruise missle. Everything else needs an onboard human, and them what thinks otherwise need to be removed from the pipeline before they cause any further damage to the national defense systems.
Lookit here: It’s a fact, although one we tend to diminish or set asdie, that pilots and other aircrew are expendable. Yes, they are valuable, and they are literally the heart and soul of any airborne weapons system. Yet they volunteer to take the risks. they raise their hands and pledge to follow through, with their lives if needs be, to accomplish what is tasked for them.
When we become afraid to risk our most valuable assets, when we become frightened to go in harm’s way, to place our own lives or the lives of those we command in jeopardy, then we have lost the will to persevere. We will have already lost the war before it begins.
Men and women step up to offer their lives in defense of a noble cause, an intangible belief that puts the preservation of an ideal above the self. When we choose to disregard that offering, we not only diminish their gift, their pledge, but ourselves as a nation. Any leader who is afraid to lose his army has no business being in charge.
They willingly offer their lives, their most precious gift. It is incumbant upon those tasked to lead them to spend that treasure wisely. Abrogating it to machines, to unfeeling, uncaring, amalgams of metal, silicon and plastic is beneath contempt. It is criminally immoral, unworthy of the name “American”.
Other’s mileage may differ, but that’s how I see it. There is no glory in the victory of a machine.
Those who would advocate a greater role for a machine in combat would do wull to travel to Gettysburg and read the inscription upon John Reynold’s monument. It says: None died here with more glory, though many died, and there was much glory”.
No one wants to die. Yet there is something to be said about how one dies. Honour, L’Gloire, Hors D’combat. Hell, ever Neil Young figured out it was better to “burn out than to rust”.
Ah well… Machines have their place. But falling into line alongside the warriors? Not a frikkin chance.
Respects,
AW1,
re- “Which is why they must be dealt with, and soon…..”
You’re pissing up a rope..big time. But don’t worry- you have company brother.
Let us go on Pancho…
b2
B2,
Si, Cisco. Yo comprende grande.
The longer I live, the more I observe, the better I understand and admire Don Quixote.
I would rather die with honour, and thought an old fool, than to simply pass away, nodding and wondering what might have been…
Respects,
Fun conversation, folks. And I agree for both emotional and tactical reasons that an airplane ain’t a fighter airplane unless it’s got a pilot.
However, in reading the linked item I noticed there’s one point that goes unmentioned, and it seems a rather carefully planned omission at that. To wit:
Has anyone yet tested this UAV — or any UAV — at making arrested carrier landings?
FCLPs at Pax River only.
And I wouldn’t get too worked up. People forget that while elecronics may be able to take 10 Gs, the airframe can’t generate it. Not to mention the minor issue of software. Software ALWAYS drives the schedule…to the right.
And Tim, I’d remind you of a quote from a Federal soldier of the Great Unpleasantness. “There is one thing that suits me to a T. We fight with artillery. The Rebels fight mostly with infantry.”
(Though Goldwater-Nichols has got to go)
Mike,
Yeah, there was a CS General who said to the effect, “Give me Federal Artillery and Confederate Infantry and I can whip the world”.
Some of those Federal batteries were amazing, especially with the 3″ Ordnance rifles. Personally, I would choose the 12lb smoothbores over the rifles pieces in anything other than the prairies. With direct-fire artillery, those Napoleons could whip twise their weight in rifled guns inside of 1200 yards. Shell at 1200, switch to case at 800, then cannister at 300 yards, or shell with the fuze cut to burst at the muzzle if needs be.
Confederate infantry could’ve beaten down Napoleon’s Old Guard, but that Federal artillery, my oh my, was only outdone by the gunners of the Federal Navy. At Malvern Hill, D.H. Hill, I believe, commented upon the destruction wrought upon those proud southron columns by the Federal artillery as “it isn’t war, it’s murder”.
Respects,
Amen to the 12-pounder Napoleons. It’s my understanding that the Army of the Potomac atillery commander, General Hunt, was always fighting the politicans to get more 12-pounder smoothbores, and fewer fo the 3-inch rifles. Precisely because of that versatility.
Mike-
And I wouldn’t get too worked up. People forget that while elecronics may be able to take 10 Gs, the airframe can’t generate it
Huh? What airframe? Why not. Please explain ’cause I’ve heard differently. Very Differently.
Thanks
N
Pretty much ANY airframe. The point is that the aerodynamic and structural limits dominate. Hell, we’re at that level already with E/F…the airframe is stressed for 7.5 Gs. A pilot in training can take more than that.
There are a lot of people pushing UAV technology who have NO idea of just how complicated these matters really are, or how complex the interrelationships really get.
“The point is that the aerodynamic and structural limits dominate.”
Thanks for the response. Just because the Rhino can only do 7.5 are you saying that they couldn’t build it to more? Are you telling me that it is impossible to build an aircraft that can pull 10+ G’s? I’m not sure I agree with that.
If there is an aerodynamic limit, why can missiles pull many many more. I flew a T-34 in primary 20 years ago that had pulled 12. I find it hard to believe your argument that 7.5 is an absolute structural limit.
Is this a field in which you are well versed?
Thanks,
Nose
PS I’m not pushing UAV technology. Just not sure I buy your premise.
I was finally watching the History Channel’s program Dogfights about kamikaze flights. I had no idea that the Japanese had manned(!) bombs they flew into our ships — Ohka, I think they were called. Talk about a short career path!
Thank goodness for GPS and smart bombs now. But it does revive the argument about pilot necessity for the future. I still believe that a human is required for ultimate decision making, but I’m sure as hell glad we don’t have to use manned bombs to do surgical strikes now.
My two cents for today.
Nose,
Not an A-loads/structures expert by any means (in certain ways their science resembles alchemy to me!) but I do know that ultimate load factor of an airframe, IE-when things break near 100% of the time, is oftentimes nearly twice the G-limit (+/-) for an aircraft or what a pilot can handle. Design engineers like to design-in a factor of at least one + over everything- less chance to screw up….In airplanes where that operating limit exceeds nominal pilot tolerance they put SW in that won’t let a pilot exceed it. The T-34C we both flew had no such sw thus the 12g you saw (I hope you didn’t do it!). All Hornets have this SW built in I think. It kicks in when a pilot exceeds thiose limits where the machine takes over for ya..like a governor on a go-kart so you don’t go too fast. (With a Zen-Hornet Master like Lex this probably never happened. ;-0) I’ll bet your heavy has something like that too..because you know you COULD easily do an aeileron roll or pull 4-5 g’s if’n you HAD to, but it wouldn’t be good for bidness!
Any box/WRA- avionics/mechanical must be designed robust enough to pass a 40G crash load on modern stuff. That doesn’t mean it needs to operate properly after a crash. Just physically survive without flying around. O’course we all know 40G will kill a human most often.
b2
This is quite amusing for someone like me who has read on this ever so insightful blog about the slow painful death of the Submarine force. (the blog about who the next CNO would be)
CAP’N,
Sounds like you need to do a little career justification yo’self. Maybe a little quicker than us bubbleheads cuz they havn’t found an Apple Mac that can do my job………YET!