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PaternalismI think it was George Will who acerbically noted that one of the more off-putting features of liberalism, at least in its most recent form, is the underlying paternalism in so many of its communal prescriptions. It is almost as though some of them share a grim belief that anything which is not forbidden must be compulsory. Based on the tone of his comments in Iowa, at least one presidential aspirant appears to agree:
Far be it from me to disagree in principle: Preventative care makes great good sense and is cheaper for everyone over the long haul. For my own part, I’m compelled to take an (increasingly intrusive) annual flight physical even though 1) I’m feeling just fine, thank you and 2) I’m not even flying any more. But military folks are used to the notion of having to give up certain freedoms when they swear the oath. I would think most civilians would rather resent this sort of notion as a heavy-handed governmental intrusion into their private affairs – I mean, what kind of enforcement regime can he have in mind? I’ll bet before the race is run he finds a way to soften his language on this. 58 comments to Paternalism |
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Hi. I’m from the government. I’m here to give you your yearly exam. Please bend over.
Um, no thanks.
Lex, you may not be flying right now, but I’ve seen enough episodes of JAG to know that senior folks like yourself can just hop in a jet and get some traps whenever you feel like it. Right?
Criminalizing Health Care…again…
Why is every time the Dems come forward with their version of great health care, it always involves punitive actions alongside the proposed healing?…
Just think, though…every patient-doctor contact is an opportunity for a future lawsuit, helping to support a growing population of lawyers of the Edwards type…
Not only a nanny-state, but a daddy-state, as well. Feh on the Breck Girl. He’s a twit who hasn’t a chance — I hope.
The liberals are doing their socialist duty to the best of their abilities to quash individuality and independent spirit. If it feels good, it must be bad for you.
No one can grow up anymore, so just let the government take care of all your needs, because it knows what’s best for you anyway.
I must be getting old(er) ~ I feel like I’m turning into that cranky old lady who lives down the street and yells at all the kids who make noise. Only it’s the stupidity I can’t stand anymore. What happened to critical thinking skills and independent thought? Must be too dangerous and schools have killed it with zero-tolerance efforts.
Feh.
I would laugh if this wasn’t so serious. We have doctors bailing out of our community left and right due to the high cost of malpractice insurance among other things. My own intern just recently quit and moved out of state.
Silky has been part of the problem and now he expects us to buy into his solution???
If Edwards’ plan includes manditory mental health screenings, what will they do with the “9/11 truthers”?
Here’s what I don’t get … And you guys say we’re “socialist”?
Heh, our crazy ideas would only measure as half as crazy, at best. Its like I told you before, your moonbats are crazier than our moonbats. After all, we’ve had (gasp) government health care for how many years now, without mandatory anything.
Wow, I leave for the weekend and I come back to some sort of blog “While You Were Out” makeover. I like the new paint job.
What’s Edwards is hoping for would be negotiated/watered down in Congress to something different anyway. He knows how Congress works. He sets a high bar now and negotiates down. That’s what they do.
Much of “preventive health care” is mandatory already, and some of it is not so preventive, like the “mandatory” vaccinations our children must have before they enter school. There are still loopholes, but they are closing fast.
I shudder.
d
Hey Door,
I don’t know where you live but I am all for mandatory vaccinations for public school children… If you have a problem with that then home school or send them to a private school that believes in your theory.
When my children were little we lived in SoCal. Are you aware that all you need to do is sign the waiver on the back of the health form and your child is not required to receive any innoculations? By that I mean none?
Let me fast forward to high school. The Fountain Valley High School was closed down for a month due to a TB outbreak in about 1996. Would you like to have your neighborhood high school closed down due to TB? Would you like to have your children become “recessive carriers” due to the lack of medical tracking in your local high school? How about other diseases that are currently third world problems? Would you like to revisit them here in the U.S.? Because that is exactly where we are headed… Polio anyone?
You know what door, I think you confuse your individual children with the “herd.” So, as long as the “herd” is safe, your children will not contract some horrible disease that will change their lives forever.
Unfortunately, the “herd” is being infiltrated with individuals that have not had the benefit of the “herd lifestyle”. By that I mean the swamp of people coming to our shores without a reasonable medical check, not so much as a TB patch… You might think that the herd is still safe. Unfortunately, we have people working in D.C. every day that want to believe that but are unable to disprove that theory on the ground…
Unfortunately, I was a participant in this fallout. My children’s own nursery school teacher admitted to me that she was TB positive, even though she had followed all the guidelines. When this phenomenon hits your shore, you might think differently.
Well Michelle,
While I appreciate your comment and feel for your sister and I also feel for the families that had their children contract TB and other disabling diseases because they were meerly sitting next to someone in our country that hadn’t recieved proper medical care. Not that the medical care wasn’t available. The press told me a number of times that “illegals” did not go to the public health because they were afraid of “being found out” never mind that it is nonsence, the public health in CA releases no “immigrant” info… Hence, the waiver on the back of the medical card to enroll in a California public school.
The fact that you are a relative of the one in 100,000 that contracted a disability due to immunization fails to sway me. I am terribly sorry to say that to you…
Would you like to go back to an African nation where the Immams tell people to not innoculate their children because it is a western plot? Have you heard of the increase in polio due to the religious preaching in northern Africa? Do you think it is a good thing?
Again, I am terribly sorry for your relative. What would you like to have happen? All innoculations to stop? Because that is where we are headed in the U.S. as far as our immigrants are concerned.
Do you think it is a good idea that people shouldn’t even be tested for TB?
Babs,
I am new here, so please forgive me if I do any of this wrong. However, as the mother of a vaccine injured boy, autistic and seizures and global delays, I do not endorse vaccines of any kind. BTW, I live in So. Cal, and I do homeschool all 5 of my children. But I will stay on topic here and not go on about my rant on public education in general.
As far as vaccines, go, yep you are right, I did sign the back of the form and did not have them given anymore of their shots. How sad I learned too late and they were indeed immunized up until my youngest was 2 years old.
I believe that parents should be given all the facts and allowed to make the choice for themselves for what is best for their children, imagine that.
Even in California, we are running the risks of saying no to vaccines at the doctor’s office and having that doctor call CPS on you or refusing to care for your child any longer. So it is not as easy as you claim it is.
Absolutley no medical care should be mandated, by anyone for anyone. Each individual should have the choice of how to treat themselves and their families. Period.
And let’s not even get into the hidden financial agenda of hte drug companies that are in bed with the FDA.
Well Jenifer,
If you want to home school your children I say more power to you. I am terribly sorry that one of your children received an ill effect from innoculations. I will tell you however that those of us that did not recieve such a powerful incentive to stop innoculations of “the herd” happen to think you are the exception to the rule.
I will also ask you… Do you think that school children should not even be subject to non invasive tests for TB just because their parents signed the back of the form? Do you think the “herd” should suffer for this choice? Do you think that those that test positive should be excluded from public education?
I think your answer to these questions would be rather telling because you have suffered an ill effect from inoculations. So, what do you think? Should anyone and everyone living in our country suffer from a TB carrier just because some can justify not innoculating their children?
I really would appreciate your answer.
Babs.
Where to begin… how many different avenues shall we discuss here….
Your statement… “If you want to home school your children I say more power to you. ” It really has nothing to do with wanting to homeschool. I am homeschooling because the school system is ill equpped and unwilling to pay for the kind of education that my son needs. I am unwilling to battle the school district for the greater good of the herd, at the expense of my boy. So I homeschool, because I have to , in order to educate my son. Now that brings me back to, my son was immunized and then damaged… and now the government who mandated immunizations, refuses to pay for the needs they have caused my son to have.
“Do you think that school children should not even be subject to non invasive tests for TB just because their parents signed the back of the form?”
If I as the parent stated that I wish my child to not participate in any activity, then my wishes are to be honored. I am the parent. The school is not. If a child has a contagious disease of any kind then yes I would exclude them from being in public including public education. I believe a child should only be tested with parental consent and if they are symptomatic. If they are not symptomatic, then no, I do not believe they should be forced to do so. And I do not belive that is “punishing” the herd. We do not randomaly test all school age children for all contagious diseases before allowing admittance.
And for your statement:
“…happen to think you are the exception to the rule.” How right I wish you were the fact of the matter is quite the contrary.
And let me say this.. the exception to the rule….. 6 out of 10,000 have a reaction….. sounds like small odds until you are one of the 6!
And let me add…. it is very easy to say, I believe in the good of the herd, when your sheep….. your children, have not been damaged. When you live day in and day out with a child who is struggling to thrive…. and in many cases, just to merely survive… your outlook on the herd changes.
Why did my baby have to be damged? fo rthe good of the herd? That is a sorry excuse.
Again I must go back to… the financial agenda of the drug companies. It is not all for the greater good of the herd. I remember when I believed that….. and then my son was injured…… there are pockets that are being fattened on the backs of children like mine.
I hope I answered your questions.
I differ from Jennifer here in that I would allow testing of a non-symptomatic child if there was reason for concern (something in that child’s or family background or if a particular disease was prevalent in the community). And of course, I would exclude anyone with a serious contagious disease from the public.
But, Babs, I am curious. You say that if someone doesn’t want their kid immunized, for whatever reason, maybe they should not be exposed to the general population. So what about the child for whom a particular vaccine is medically contraindicated (in other words, there is a medically recognized significant risk , much higher than that found in the general population, of this child suffering serious harm if vaccinated), would you condemn him or her to a life of social isolation? Should the parent keep them locked up in the house or protect “the herd” at all costs, knowing the likely outcome for their little one?
Shortly after 9/11, when the anthrax scare was at its height, there was serious talk about mass innoculations for …. was it small pox? Anyway, I remember reading a lot of articles on Medscape on that particular vaccine (I’m pretty sure it was smallpox) and looking at the list of contraindications (any skin conditons, neurological conditons, eye condtion… the list went on and on) I noted that, putting any personal feelings on the issue aside, that vaccine was medically contraindicated for 4/5 of our household.
You know, its easy to spout off in the abstract (and yes, you could very well make the same comment to me) but I have to think that your perspective might be a little bit different if your child was one of those vaccine statstics. And just for the record, although I know a vaccination was responsible for my sister’s condition, I don’t believe that vaccines “caused” my daughter’s condition. I do howerver believe that its quite likely that they “triggered” an underlying predisposition, which may or may not have otherwise been triggerd without the vaccine.
OK Michelle, let’s get honest here. I have posted on this board long enough that I think you know me to be a reasonable player…
If a family is able to make a case that an innoculation is medically contradicted then, of course, that child would be allowed to interact with “the herd”.
In a grand sense, the herd would be protecting the most vulnerable.
What I am trying to get at here is those that refuse to innoculate their children for some whacked out reason or, maybe they and their children shouldn’t be in the herd to begin with and they sign the back of the immunization card because 1) They have a fear of being found out or 2) They don’t really give a damn or they don’t believe that these diseases could re-emerge and passively expect the rest of us to take care of their almost impossible infectious disease. This leads to entire high schools being closed down for a month while everyone gets a chest x-ray only to find out that some of the herd is now infected with TB.
I never meant to imply that any American citizen with a valid case for not innoculating their children should be shunned.
I goes to the “carrying capacity” of any environmental niche. Sure, we can carry those that have a medical propensity for adverse effects from innoculations.
What we can’t do is have droves of individuals opting out of a reasonable medical regieme due to laziness, fear, or insanity quite frankly by mearly signing the back of a form.
When my children were being educated in the CA public school system I found too much of the latter and actually none of the former. This put my children at risk, which I totally resented.
I hope I have made my position clear and, while I am terribly sorry for your particular situation, it does not change my outlook on keeping the herd safe from horrible diseases that we have all come to believe is a thing of the past here in the west. I view your situation and that of Jennifer to be the exception to the rule.
BTW Jennifer, I am fully aware of the “choice” I have as an American citizen as I pulled my children out of the CA public school system when the oldest was in 3rd grade and placed them in a private school to escape the insanity of the public school system. We spend tens of thousands of dollars to educate our children because the public school system had collapsed.
Am I allowed to be bitter about that? You tell me.
When the oldest had to be placed in a high school we moved across the country in order to give our children a safe and appropriate education. That was the sole reason for moving from CA to the east coast…
We did everything we could possibly do to afford our children a safe and appropriate education and childhood at tremendous personal expense. So, please, don’t tell me what my choices might be. I weighed them all.
The very idea that our gov’t demands that an American child sit next to someone that might have TB, this same evil gov’t shoving innoculations and testing down your throat that you talk about, makes my blood boil.
Please refer to my comment to Michelle regarding opt out provisions I think are appropriate but, don’t lump your situation in with illegal aliens that haven’t even bothered to take a skin patch test. It diminishes your argument…
Babs, I think it really comes to the “whacked out reason” position. For example, the pertussis vaccine is contraindicated for my children. The MMR isn’t. But after doing my own research, I decided that the potential risks from the MMR vaccine itself outweighed the benefits. I don’t consider my response whacked out because I took the time to do some pretty intensive research. Sure, others might come to a different conclusion on whether or not to use that particular vaccine, but reasonable people often disagree. Illegal immigrants, whole other ball game.
And although to an extent, Jennifer’s, doorkeeper’s and my stories might be the exception … three people with four vaccine stories just among those willing to post on Lex’s site? Sadly, perhaps not quite as exceptional as you might think.
So what do you think? Shall we give Lex back his thread?