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Who are you going to believe?

By lex, on September 26th, 2007

Smart-guy Dave? Me?

Or your own lying eyes?

Stupid patriots.

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September 26th, 2007 | Category: Flying, Gratuitous slap

22 comments to Who are you going to believe?

  • J.M. Heinrichs
    September 26, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    When the Iranians introduce new kit, one asks two questions:
    1. Who did they ‘borrow’ from?
    2. Does it actually work as claimed?

    Cheers

  • Kristen
    September 26, 2007 at 5:06 pm

    I wonder how an Iranian pilot would feel, taking one of those up against any modern American military plane. I wonder if they swallow all the propaganda themselves, or if they’d know that they wouldn’t stand a chance.

  • GEO6
    September 26, 2007 at 5:40 pm

    Dave isn’t drinking the Koolaid- he is mainlining it. He makes it so easy to blow him off as he gave about as much thought to his comment as a cockerspaniel does when he lifts his leg. Pretty august group in this bin. Come prepared.

  • AW1 Tim
    September 26, 2007 at 5:55 pm

    Kristen,

    Thing is, they may NOT know so much. It all depends upon how well the propoganda machine is controlling the news. Pilts will generally have a better pipeline to outside sources, but still and all… if the government is really controlling data, then sometimes all you know is what they let you know.

    For example, Guy Sajer, in his excellent memoir “Forgotten Soldier” talks about his shock in 1944 at being taken from the Eastern front to the Western front to help stop the allied advance Sajer was a Frenchman who had joined the SS as a young man and served with the German Army. NONE of those soldiers who fought with him in Russia knew about the allied invasion of France. They had been told that the French (like him) were supporting the Germans against the Russians, and it was an immense shock to them to learn they had been lied to. Much of his unit fell apart and simply deserted at their first chance rather than continue the war.

    Who knows for certain what the Iranian pilots know? How much do they WANT to know?

    Respects,

  • Steve
    September 26, 2007 at 6:47 pm

    Keep in mind the same country that produced this fine example of aeronautical engineering proclaims that none, not one, of its men are gay.

    I hope they keep their heads in the sand right up until the point where they actually launch some of these “fighters” – it won’t be pretty but it will be a short fight.

    The real danger in dealing with a nation whose leadership is this delusional is that it might see nuclear war as an viable solution.

    And Dave??? Flew a computer once, maybe. I’m guessing he crashed. On takeoff.

  • claudio
    September 26, 2007 at 8:12 pm

    the guys we trained years ago, know what they’re up against. However, most are gone by now, either retired, or long ago imprisoned and “forgotten” due to the fact that they may have been too enamored with the Great Satan during their time here for training. Not saying that there’s not some flashed or brilliance among a sea of mediocrity at best in their pilot corps, however I’d put any deployed nuggest against their average guys. Heck, they’d fly a pinky on the shoreline where they could see dirt off to the East and log it as night time over water flight. Also, flying the equipment they do, lucky to maintain an equal number of landings to takeoffs. Best thing about the new plane is the paintjob.

  • Kristen
    September 26, 2007 at 8:47 pm

    Tim,

    That’s an amazing story.

    Claudio,

    I didn’t realize that we had trained Iranian fighter pilots, but I guess it makes sense given the old relationship with the Shah. I know that our Air Force and Navy pilots are the best in the world, and I know what an advantage that gives us.

    It’s got to be tough being cannon fodder for crazy Arab dictators and mullahs. I’m filled with satisfaction when I read about dead terrorists, but I’m sure that at least some of the men in the rank and file military are decent enough guys. I guess, thinking back, all those Iraqis who surrendered in droves during the First Gulf War were pretty well aware of their chances against American forces. The pilots may be a bit cockier than the grunts, though. What are the chances of that? :-)

  • AW1 Tim
    September 26, 2007 at 9:21 pm

    Kristen,

    We trained a bunch of their folk also at NAS Millington, outside of Memphis. I was there in 1976 when I had my first encounter with them. It taught me a lot about how disparate we were as cultures.

    Seems one of the Shah’s best and brightest bought himself a customized van, with a bed, stereo system, etc. He took himself and several friends for a ride, with a keg of beer in the back and a cooler full of party snacks. They hit the highway (Austin P) and cracked that keg.

    Seems that there was still a bit of a problem with some technical translation. The driver, rather than just take a glass of beer from hsi buddies, said “watch this”, set the cruise control and then GOT OUT of his seat to join the buddies. Seems he was under the impression that the cruise control was an auto-pilot.

    Needless to say, a short ways down the road the highway curved, the van didn’t, and the Iranians went airborne until gravity and drag took over and returned them all to earth in a variety of poses.

    Surprisingly, no one was killed though there were some serious injuries. The State Troopers were some surprised when the driver kept trying to explain to them that the auto-pilot failed. Heh.

    There are more stories like that. They were an interesting bunch.

    Respects,

  • Sgt. B.
    September 26, 2007 at 9:44 pm

    *snort*

    *chortle*

    *guffaw*

    BWAH HA HA HA!!!

    (Sorry, couldn’t help it… That thing against an Israeli Air Force fire breather? And I ain’t even gonna think about one o’ them things up against one of our fighters… Heck, the AV-8 and A-10 jockeys would love a ticket to that dance!!!)

    Darn, made milk come outta my nose…

  • steveH
    September 26, 2007 at 10:51 pm

    About 30 years ago I worked for a company who provided pilot training for Japan Air Lines. No space to do that in Japan, so the training facility was based at Napa, CA. At the time, JAL was one of the fastest-growing major airlines in the world.

    I was in the ground school side, developing training aids, and got to watch the instructors work with the Japanese students, who were *very* motivated and hard-working.

    Eventually, JAL decided that they had grown enough, and we began to look around for other clients. Desperately scrambled is probably a better description.

    What we ended up with was Gulf Air (as in Arabian Gulf), which was looking at many of their senior pilots, most of them ex-RAF, getting near retirement. They came to us after trying the UK; where they didn’t much like the weather, and *really* didn’t like the food.

    The new guys were something of a shock, especially after years of working with the Japanese students, tending to be much younger, not all college graduates, not nearly so motivated to work, etc.

    The one exception was an older fellow that I recall we called Fred (I can’t remember what his real name was, if I ever knew). He was educated in engineering, and had been a non-com technician in the Iranian Air Force. Sharp guy, hard worker, serious about doing the job. His English was better than most of the others, apparently in part from time spent training either with Americans over there or in the States during his IrAF service.

    I moved on to work in Silicon Valley about that time, and I lost touch with the ground school guys. Wonder what eventually happened to Fred?

  • badbob
    September 27, 2007 at 6:15 am

    Despite how funky it looks and as screwed up as the Iranians are, I would suggest y’all not lose sight of the possiblity that one- man, one-bomb on low-fast flying jet could wreak havoc..particularly if that man was willing to die for 72 virgins.

    Just one leaker- one sapper.

    b2

  • AW1 Tim
    September 27, 2007 at 6:30 am

    Shipmates,

    badbob makes an excellent point. We enter a perilous state when we assume potential opponents will respond in certain ways. Believeing that our enemies are simply Americans in finny clothes will often blind us to other alternatives of behaviour that could easily prove ruinous.

    I would hope that our own Navy, at least, remembers the story of the Kamikaze, of the shock to us when forst encountered, both physically and culturally.

    Even assuming we know the physical limitaions of weapon performance dosn’t always pan out. Witness the study of the Mig-25 that Victor Belenko defected to japan with many years ago. We (the west) thought we knew everything about that aircraft because we built models of it and tested it. We based our assumptions upon the belief that the Soviets were using technology similar to our own. We were wrong. They were not.

    In the MiG case, we lucked out, as it was discovered the Soviets had not used more advanced western technology and instead gone with a lesser set the degraded the performance of the MiG.

    However, it is what we don’t know that should worry us. We can make our best guesses, but without corroborating evidence we will not know for certain.

    What badbod says goes. The Iranian aircraft most likely is on par with a low-end trainer. however, that doesn’t mean that someone, thinking outside the box, can’t find a way to exploit it’s strengths and our weaknesses, to our disadvantage.

    In many cases, it is not the better airplane that wins the fight. It is the pilot who best knows what his platform can do who will emerge victorious.

    Respects,

  • Zane
    September 27, 2007 at 7:06 am

    b2, worth noting, but with what kind of a payload? Even as a kamikaze with half-fuel, I don’t know how much damage it could actually do.

    What I do know, though, is to jet jocks used to fighting Hornet and Super-Hornet sized objects, one of these can come straight down the nose and the pilot can still not gain a visual. Think Lex has a story to that effect, too.

  • Kristen
    September 27, 2007 at 8:26 am

    Tim,

    I love this site because of all the great stories that I get here. Thanks for sharing that one. Too funny, and I’m glad no one was killed.

  • Gary
    September 27, 2007 at 9:08 am

    Is it just me, or does every official pronouncement from some Iranian government type sound just like Baghdad Bob ?

  • Greg
    September 27, 2007 at 9:21 am

    Zane, I think the extra tail may increase ones chances of spotting one of these jets coming head-on. I’m not saying it will be easy to spot, just less difficult.

  • Kris, in New England
    September 27, 2007 at 9:57 am

    …Pretty august group in this bin. Come prepared.

    What GEO6 said above. And I’m with Kristen – love the stories that come out of these posts. “August group” seems a bit of an understatement actually. It’s amazing that someone like Dave would try to fisk a group like this one…

  • Mike47
    September 27, 2007 at 10:19 am

    steveH:

    JAL still operates the pilot training facility in Napa. Lots of single-engine trainers on the ramp.

  • SeniorD
    September 27, 2007 at 11:03 am

    steveH,

    I’ve known many, many college graduates (and post-graduates) that were (and still are) as smart as my pet rock.

    On second thought, I do believe my pet rock had the lead over some grads.

    While an engineer would make an ideal aviator, I do believe others, say a poli-sci or English major, would make excellent Naval Aviators.

  • Jeopardy
    September 27, 2007 at 11:19 am

    AW1 Tim and b2 make excellent points. You cannot understimate a seemingly inferior foe. Just ask the U of M football team.

  • prowlerguy
    September 27, 2007 at 12:18 pm

    Regarding what an outgunned, yet motivated enemy can do with trainer-type aircraft, I would direct your attention the performance of Argentinian pilots in A-4 Skyhawks and other “late model” jets. Doesn’t require suicide, either.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falklands_War

  • badbob
    September 28, 2007 at 6:18 am

    Prowlerguy- exactly.

    Air-air with that thing: no way Jose…Green light for Hubris.

    Air-ground: could be dangerous is all.

    Of course we’ll kill ‘em on the ground in the 1st hours unless they bury ‘em….

    Or strike us first…

    re – “..motivated enemy” I would considered a Jihadist suicidal-nut, motivated. Effective? Maybe not. But think Kamikaze. Think how paralyzed the USN was when first confronting them in WWII…

    b2
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