“Kathy’s facts and viewpoints for the most part are not fringe or extreme, nor are they very wrong. Indeed they represent those of an ever-growing majority of our population..”

First off, Kathy’s facts are simply WRONG and I ain’t trying to score a point. Lex did that heavy lifting for all of us. Number 2- “facts are facts”. They’re never ‘very wrong’ or ‘very right’. As an educated man how can you make such a statement?

Lastly, I don’t form my viewpoint based on any majority, I base them on the “facts”, my experience and my own education; I have zero tolerance for those that hide in the ignorance that as the majority goes so go I…

Criticism is not an ad hominem attack. An ad hominem attack would be if’n I called you a pinhead! But without ever having laid eyes on ya, how would I know what hat size you wear?

I think I’ll go watch my dog chase it’s own tail….

b2

As a soldier, we have to abide by various codes of ethics. There is the Code of Ethics, The Warriors Creed, the Soldiers Creed, the Army Values, etc etc etc…

And yes, every single one of them sets high standards of moral conduct and character to abide by. So in reference to torture, etc… as much as we would LIKE to have an opinion that was all hard and no rationality, we can’t. And we don’t.

“There are indeed rules and laws that must be followed. Ends do not justify means. International law, UCMJ, ROE, Chain of Command, ethics, and the moral teachings of one’s God all dictate what the “rules” are. And they are to be followed, even if lesser beings do not. An attitude of “rules don’t count” leads one to massacres like Malmedy or Nan King. Even vermin have rules that they honor. So must we.”

Filterman, I agree 100% and I like the way you put it.

Which is why I AM NOT an interrogator. : )~

Sometimes what we know is right is in direct conflict with what we want to be right… I never want to be the one making that judgment call.

To have the honor of being an American soldier means you not only live up to all of those codes, you honor them, respect them and teach them to your junior soldiers. . .

But it is still a war… and if it’s me or him, it’s him… if it’s him or innocent civilians, it’s him… and if it’s him or my buddies, it’s him… and if he knows where the spit is going to go down, it’s him. . . that’s just the way it goes.

Kathy, I’m sorry… this is a terrible forum in which to have this discussion… perhaps over coffee or tea or something would have been better… but alas we are not that fortunate unless you live here in the Capitol.

Now… let me tell you that if I ever set one boot on that ground with an American superiority complex, it was gone the first moment I rolled outside the wire to an orphanage… and each and every time I left the wire or interviewed a local national. I’m sorry, there is just no way you can grasp this without having been there. We walk in very different shoes my friend.

I respect your textbook knowledge… good for you to be working so much to inform yourself, but unfortunately your self-education is for naught because you’re misinformed… grossly. And it appears, a bit closed minded to understanding.

That’s ok… at least you’re making an attempt, even if you are only going to read into things as fits your slant.

As far as your knee-jerk reaction to the defense of the Iraqi people and their pride, you again misunderstand. Perhaps I didn’t explain it properly but I did not mean they are ‘weak’ in spirit or pride. I almost want to laugh because you completely misunderstood me. I apologize… They are tired, war-weary… they were tired under the rule of Saddam and his sons and during that time… they want peace but many of them see America as the means to getting there. They know that when we leave it will be sectarian violence all over, with no one even trying to put a stop to it.

Holy crap woman, do you think you’re the only one with ‘friends’ who know friends and ‘journalist’ buddies and linguists and expatriate Iraqis and Afghans… please, spare me your long list of second and third hand sources. I’ve just spent 3 years with the most deployed division in the United States Army… perhaps you’d like to talk to some of them.

I know you won’t go over there. I know that as passionate about what you are saying as you are, you will not go see for yourself to make your own conclusions, and that is fine… but if you’re genuinely interested in the plight of the Iraqi and Afghan people, I suggest you spend some time with people of various backgrounds who have gone over there.

Talk with some soldiers, marines and Blackwater, Dyncorps (etc.) guys. You won’t get the same experience working with them, but I have no doubt you’ll come away with a different understanding. Because that’s really what all this is about… empathy. I’m sick and tired of civilians telling me what the Iraqis and Afghans want.

I asked a couple hundred of them… so I have a little different perspective than you do.

“…But that last phrase of yours, “… and they didn’t have dreams,” is the worst. Where do you get the arrogance to say such a thing and how can you be so stupid as to believe such a thing and still be able to walk out your door each day?”

Oye. You really are quite defensive and amped up… which is understandable, but please, humor me… When I wrote that statement, it came from my heart. It came from the mouths of Afghans, in their own language… directly to me… no translator, not interpreter… just them and me… talking. It came from women who I met at a Women’s Center in Lashkar Gah City, Helmand Province, Afghanistan. A place now completely taken over by the Taliban since US Forces turned it over to ISAF (International Security Assistance Force) last year. I can assure you that those women and girls are probably no longer allowed to go to that school, where they learned computers, reading, writing, sewing, Cosmetology, and English if they chose. THEY told me that they had stopped dreaming… and the horrors that they and their families withstood during the Taliban reign. Their schools (we built) where girls could go for the first time since the Communist reign and the bridges we erected have all been burned. I’ve heard it from the countless men I’ve talked to that before we came they could not get married or work. They couldn’t even feed their families and now they can go to work and have lamb once in a while.

” I don’t know your age, but I’m assuming you are quite young, so that might explain if not excuse the arrant nonsense that comes out of your mouth. Fortunately, you have many years ahead of you to learn just how repulsively, disgustingly patronizing and insulting you are to Iraqis in the way you speak about them.”

This past statement is so off base that it’s ridiculous. You have no idea where I come from or who I am, and you haven’t the slightest inkling of an idea… but I don’t fault you. I admire your fire and your passion… shall we make another assumption? You’re either too old to join us and really do something to make a difference or you’re just full of hot air and are all talk and no action. It’s a shame and a waste.

Someone like you should be fighting for the right causes. I wish a million times over that I could take you for a walk in my boots. I have no doubt you’d change your tune a bit.

As I said before. War is atrocious. It’s horrible… I never agreed with Iraq… and I never believed or fell for any of the WMD hype. I knew the day those towers fell with that eejit in office we would be in for a sad, long, journey. But I am completely against us pulling out. We started this mess, and now we need to do what we said we were going to do and clean it up. We can’t leave those people now. We have learned valuable lessons from Afghanistan… we should have never left them after they defeated the communists… and we can’t leave Iraq.

But aside from the personal attacks, which have little to do with any point I was trying to get across… this could have been a real opportunity for some people to learn something. Sadly enough stuff like this turns into pissing matches… and frankly, I’ve had enough fighting for a while. I would much rather store my energy for the 16 month tour to Iraq I’m going on next year.

Kathy, you’re more than welcome to join us.

JJ

There is also Gerard Vanderleun’s case, provided in his essay, OUT? NOT SO FAST. OUR MILITARY BASES IN IRAQ ARE ESSENTIAL.
He covers 5 points.
1. Iraq could be easily conquered.
2. Iraq is the strategic high ground in the ME.
3.Control of Iraq completes the encirclement of Iran.
4. Control of Iraq permits protection of both the Saudi and Iraqi oil fields.
5. Control of Iraq is as much about water as oil.
You’ll probably disagree with Vanderleun. But you’ll have to admit he has an eye for the grand strategy to accomplish, eventually, Barnett’s aims.

As to what victory would look like I can refer you to the latest report from Iraq by Victor Davis Hansen at:
http://victordavishanson.pajamasmedia.com/

Here is what he said, “It is also absolutely NOT true that the American military cannot define victory. They can and do all the time. It is the creation of a stable state that enjoys something of the calm of a Gulf monarchy—but without the monarchial authoritarianism or the Sharia law of Saudi Arabia. In other words, they hope for something like a Kurdistan or Turkey, and believe the oil and agricultural wealth of Iraq, and its past experience with secular traditions, might make that possible.”

I would agree. But be sure to read the whole report. Cause for optimism.

But you wave away things we now know as true as if we always knew them. Saddam had an affirmative obligation under the 1991 cease fire terms to account for his WMD stores and programs – an obligation he steadfastly refused to honor.

I never argued that Saddam had the least to do with 9/11. I have always argued that an implacable hostile, industrialized tyranny in the very heart of the Middle East could not be counted upon for neutrality. We have liberated 25 million minds, and it still astonishes me that we should have to apologize for this in front of those who label themselves as ‘liberals’.

We are not so very far apart on the way the world is, even if we differ vastly on how we came to be here. It is absurd to say though, that “the people will make mistakes” in demanding our withdrawal without owning the circumstances which informed those attitudes. Some of those were generated by a frankly deficient process, but nothing is as clear in execution as it is in retrospect. But some of that is due to a press which over-favors the visually arresting, and some to those who chose to make political hay out of disaster.

This is no game we are engaged in. It requires serious application, not point scoring.