The T-2 Buckeye was not a particularly prepossessing machine, but it was a damned good basic jet trainer.
It had wide landing gear configuration for safe taxi on the ground, and the straight wings made it reliable and predictable in both up and away flight and the landing configuration. Two side-by-side engines gave you redundancy while minimizing adverse single engine performance. The cockpit was laid out in such a way as to deliver about as much information as a student could be expected to process.
And oh, yeah: You could spin it.
People who don’t know what a spin is can imagine it as a deep stall combined with a marked yaw rate. Picture a Frisbee thrown in such a way that it’s coming straight down to ground at 6000-8000 feet per minute and you’ve got the notion.
Students tend believe things of their instructors unreflectively, so when we were informed that we’d be going out with senior instructors to spin the T-2 during the basic jet syllabus, we took that information philosophically. None of us, I think, recognized that this was a special instructor qualification, nor that there were very few other jet aircraft – if any – which were deliberately spun as a part of the training syllabus. You see, in most cases, a fully developed spin in a high performance jet is the step just preceding, “Ejection Handle – PULL” in the emergency procedures checklist.
Spins were moderately violent, passingly disorienting and rather a lot of fun. Except for inverted spins. Imagine the previously referenced Frisbee spinning down to earth at 12,000 – 15,000 feet per minute upside down and you’ve got the inverted spin, or most of it. The rest of it was the fact that it tended to an increasingly severe set of negative g spikes as it went down hill. Kind of like falling down the stairs upside down, with the distance between stairs increasing more or less geometrically one to the next. Inverted spins sucked.
I may have mentioned that after earning my “wings of gold,” – and because of the fact that the airlines were hiring people that otherwise would have been jet instructors like they were on sale – I remained in Meridian, Mississippi for 18 months to teach students who were all of 6 to 8 months behind me in the program. I managed to learn a lot along the way, some of it the hard way, while also managing not to kill any students – a signal accomplishment, I’ve always thought.
But some of them tried to kill me.
In flight instructor school it was always drilled into us that it wouldn’t be the bad students who got us killed, but rather the kids with good hands. You never let your guard down with a marginal student, and the “stick limiter” – the instructor’s hand circling the around the controls without quite touching them – was always in effect.
But the good students? They were smooth on the controls, and suave on the radios. They sounded like they knew what they were doing, and always seemed ahead of the jet. You’d let your guard down and they would just barely kill you. Never get comfortable, we told.
Good advice.
Somehow or another towards the end of my instructor tour I managed to worm my way into a teaching seat for the spin syllabus. One day a really good student, kid with a great rep and winning personality briefed with me to go out and fling the jet about through a number of departure maneuvers, stalls, post-stall gyrations and spins. Kid flew the best ever tailslide I ever saw: Three hundred knots on the jet, smooth 4-g pull into the pure vertical, throttles to idle and forward stick to keep the Buckeye from flipping on her back as the airspeed bled off. If you did it perfectly – he did – you’d go straight back down the path you’d come up tail first, and the fuel vapor that had vented out of your tip tanks as the jet slowed to zero would go back through your engines exhaust pipes frst, leaving a beautiful swirling pattern as you fell backwards. It was… groovy.
We were having fun, two youngsters wringing a machine out on a lovely Thursday afternoon. When the time came for our first spin, I wasn’t exactly snoozing in the trunk with my oxygen mask dangling, but I wasn’t very far from it in my head. It was to be a straightforward upright spin with me at the controls from the back seat for a demo: 350 kts to 80 degrees nose high, throttles idle and, as the airspeed bled down through 40 kts, full aft stick, full left stick and full right rudder. The jet started a perfect right-hand spin and things were looking lovely, the farm field we’d chosen as our reference point wheeling around and around in front of us even as the altimeter unwound. That’s when the left and right generator lights went on.
Huh, I thought to myself. Both generators?
That’s when the canopy seal deflated and the cockpit de-pressurized, causing our ears to pop. It wasn’t too much longer after that when I scanned the engine instruments and realized that we hadn’t lost the generators – we’d lost the engines. Both of ‘em. We were still spinning down towards the ground and 6000 feet per minute or so. We were just doing it as an unpowered glider. Except for the part that we weren’t actually, you know: Gliding.
This was highly unusual.
First things first, and the first thing was already pretty much complete: Analyze the situation. Second thing was to gain/maintain aircraft control. Already at the controls, I initiated spin recovery proceedures, which in the T-2 was pretty much as simple as neutralizing all controls. She fell out of the spin passing about 23,000 feet, comfortably above our mandatory ejection altitude. Pointing more or less straight nose I actually had to wait a time before initiating engine relight procedures, as we were above the safe windmill restart altitude.
Time passes incredibly slowly when you’re pointing straight downhill with both engines out, cabin pressure leaking and nothing really worthwhile to say on the radio or intercomm. Eventually we got back into the restart envelope and I rammed the throttles up to the mil power setting, mashing their associated starter buttons with my gloved hand. Time passes slowly while you wait to see if the motors will relight, but eventually they did.
I figured that we’d seen enough for one day, and – once I was sure everything was back in normal limits – gave the student the jet back for a subdued recovery back at NAS Meridian. Turned out that when I had taken the jet from him for the first spin, he’d put his hand down on the horizontal dash aft of the throttles, next to the flight idle solenoids. Those switches ordinarily kept the throttles from being retarded to the cut off position in flight, but when I’d made my 4-g pull into the vertical, the student’s forearm or wrist pressured them. When I pulled the throttles back to “idle” in the back seat, they had actually gone to “cut off” up front.
It was pretty exciting there for a few moments.
You learn from all of it.
Done with your Friday assignment way early…Wow! Another great read…
I always thought of spin training in terms of Cuisinart. The Light Attack Thunder Guppy was the blender…
… and I was the margarita.
Spins. Oh, how I’ve waited for you to bring up spins, Lex. They were always my favorite!
I’m confident that you remember way back in VT-1 at Saufley, yes… way back then. What we learned to do there weren’t just spins. Oh, no… they were PRECISION spins.
I enjoyed spins more than anything, it seemed. Pull back on the stick, set the pedals and wait for the stall, then over she went. Here we go…
It was so cool to look out the top of the canopy, watching the ground SPIN around; whoop, whoop, whoop…
Precision spins were to be exactly 2 1/2 revolutions around any straight line chosen on the ground, ie: a road, highway, fenceline or railroad. So… we counted the revolutions, get to two and then neutralize the T-34′s controls. SUPER fun!
Obviously, we didn’t have even half the altitude you did, Lex, making it all the more enjoyable…here comes the earth, 1, spinning around, 2, up at you, neutralize! Better than any carnival ride ever!
I got to do two spin hops in the Tubby as a student NFO. There was only one in the syllabus, but the instructor always had the right not to spin if they just “didn’t feel right about it” that day. Of course there was plenty of other items on the flight, and it was a very good deal, when you could still count your total flight hours with two digits, to get an extra hop. As I recall, the weather had to be just about perfect in order to spin, and the weather in P-cola was always hazy enough to be a judgement call.
The NFO pipeline was so full in 1982 that they actually brought a couple of T-2B’s back from mothballs in the desert that summer.
Didn’t I read someting, about two days ago, about how you were going to cut back on posts? I’d go back and look, but…heck…I’d have to wade through, like, 50 posts or something.
BTW – ref the post earlier about the MO ANG F-15C crash – entire fleet has just been grounded pending outcome of structural investigation. One thing that may factor in there is the previous flt restrsction on A-E models due to vertical stab failure.
And spins? Loved ‘em — first one in a C-150 @ 14 (instructor thought I was nuts for liking ‘em) and had a couple later as well in the tubby-2 …
- SJS
Thank you, sir.
We few, we happy few.
Yeah, the T2 was a good solid trainer. Without mself and my collegues, no zoom, zoom, spin, spin.
VT-26 Airframes, 1977-1978 at beautiful NAS Chase Field, Beeville, Texas. The Station is now an industrial park and the housing is for low income. At least they didn’t tear it dowm.
Know the feeling. At the 180 a lad pulled the mixture to the stop instead of the throttle, flying a WW2 SNJ. That big prop works like an anchor when the horses aren’t driving it. Tower cooperated and we became #1 for the runway instead of #2, completing the simulated engine out portion of out syllabus in an actual sorta way. Learned my lesson about how the good ones can try to kill ya, fer sure.
Roger “prepossessing”. It flew SE unlike it’s follow on quite well……….
re- spins: All I saw were uprights in the TRACOM- as I remeber it- FAM, gun pattern and before ACM in A-4′s. Saw my 1st inverted variety in instrument school at Miramar and more here at PAX later. All hairy and very uncomfortable. One of those ‘manuevers’ you never get used to.
They still have several left at TPS. Nice to see ‘em still coming in the break and doing PEL boost-off and various other kinda landings. Too far outta sight to see ‘em spin but I know they do…still.
Comforting. In a way.
b2
Oh boy. Great story – I felt motion sick just from reading it. I hope the student pilot turned out to be a great Naval aviator, after all that!
I can feel my breakfast going the wrong way up a one-way street just thinking about na inverted spin. Ughhh.
Jim C
Never spun in the T-2, but did get to spin in the T-34.
Also did some aerobatic training in a Citabria, which is a nice little fabric-covered taildragger, just an engine, wings, and seats, the Wright Bros. would have loved it. Actually did upright spins, but never inverted, which now that you’ve described them, is probably just as well.
Although I did stall inverted, which just doesn’t have the same “Oh, %$#@!” feel to it.
The incredible thing is that there are actually people who enjoy doing a spin. So sorry. Not me. Because I am a card carrying member of the non-pilot society, I’m always proud to just get off the ground and to return alive.
So….. anyone know how well a T-45 spins?
SGT Jeff – The T-45 is highly resistant to both upright and inverted spins. There are two upright spin modes which are unstable and tend to oscillate out of the spin. As far as inverted spins go, there are three modes, and stabilized inverted spins have been accomplished via pure vertical maneuvers. However, intentional spins and tail-slides are both prohibited.
The T-2 is cute, too. It looks like a cartoon caricature of itself.
Thanks for the story, Lex. And the comments were just as good! You guys talking about enjoying spins somehow reminds me of enthusiastic little boys who can’t be dragged off a nausea-inducing carnival ride. You guys are great.
Thanks for the story Capt.
That T-2 you told me about on the Midway has been moved from the hangar deck to just forward of the aft, port elevator. Got a picture of “The Cat” sitting in it with a big grin on her face when we were down there. I think it’s the only plane that is actually open and accessible.
I liked spins, too.
Once I got over that ‘whoa-shiat!!!!’ rollercoaster reaction.
Damn, now I have to go back and finish off my aerobatic rating…
Fbl: It’s hard to beat chasing clouds on the government ticket. Flinging students around until they reached for “the bag” was just a bonus!
Lex, When were you at Meridian? I was there 68 to 70. ATn2 in VT-9.
A little nervous before my first T-2 spin flight I walked over to where they sold the hot dogs, covered one with mustard, ketchup and relish. As I told my instructor “sir, if I throw up it’s going to be colorful”
luckily I kept my lunch.
Btw I think that pic is from our last det to Key West spring break ’04. Two weeks of form and Guns, good times
Richard, I was there from 84-87. Eighteen months as a student, and another year and a half in the pit.
Wasn’t the worst place I’ve ever been
Spinning T-2s in the training command sounds fun, but for a real ride, you had to go through Test Pilot School.
We had T-2s…and permission (under tightly controlled conditions) to do erect spins, inverted spins, and an inertia coupling maneuver that flipped the airplane end-for-end and put the pilot under serious negative G. I’d have thrown up if I could have figured out which way up was.
I’ve done spins in (pause to check logbook) six types (T-34C, T-2C, X-26, CT-114 Tutor, CT-133, and Pitts S-2B). The Pitts was superbly versatile. Accelerated spins, full inverted capability, etc. But the Tutor was a doll…you could spin that thing with no more concern or violence that spinning an office chair. Delightful machine.
That T-2 you told me about on the Midway…
I think you told me once, but was that particular one a plane you once flew?
Yeah, sure was.
Makes you feel passing old, to see your former ride in a museum…
Poor Lex.
Don’t worry, you’re not in a museum … yet!
And we promise not to put you there as long as you keep regaling us with sea stories. Now doesn’t that make you feel better? [ICSFTH]
Such a good point about not letting your guard down.
When I was teaching formation and gunnery at South Whiting ’60-’62 we often had Academy Middies come out for fam rides in the T-28. Usually it amounted to demoing a few acrobatics and, if the kid wasn’t getting airsick, a spin.
After the demo I’d trim the plane up straight and level and let the Middie fly it. Usually it was a few shallow turns and just guiding the 28 around the area. No efforts to do anything very ambitious with the plane. That was what I expected.
However, one young lad when I said, “Okay you’ve got it,” grabbed the stick, flung us over into a 90 degree bank and then pulled! The G’s were so strong my arms were pinned at my sides. We were in a death spiral and losing altitude way too fast for my tastes. Fortunately, at around 2000′ the young man let off on the Gs enough I was able to get my hand on the stick and recover. That was the end of the demo as I explained, somewhat heatedly, how foolish it was to try such a thing with no flying experience.
Needless to say I never relaxed again when giving the airplane to any student, but expecially Middies on summer orientation.
I once ripped the wings off a T-2 … in a simulator. Was part of a NROTC aviation orientation group from Boston at NAS Corpus Christi back in January 87.
One day we took turns in the simulators.Since I was last in, I got the most stick time, so I decided to see how fast I could go. Got plenty of virtual altitude, put it in a low dive, full throttle, and watched the airspeed indicator spin up.
Suddenly everything froze, lights came up, all kinds of excitement. Instructor looks in and assesses the situation and tells me I ripped the wings off. All of my peers nod their heads and say, “Cool.”
We also took a ride out to Beeville for short orientation hops in the TA-4J among other fun activities that week. One of the best of my life.
Makes me kinda wish I wasn’t such a screw-up then and had stuck with NROTC.
Funny the things you remember. When you said “Generator Lights” I thought “Check Engine RPM.”
Guess I learned it deeper then I thought.
Good tale.
There are a million stories in the Naked Aerodrome, and yours was one of them. Here’s another:
http://www.capnbilly.com/class61f_texterror.htm
So *that* is why my Dad’s old geezer friend got so nervous when he let me fly his Grumman Widgeon, for a few minutes. That, and the throw-over control column, and no rudder pedals on my side, and my, uh, “insouciant” attitude.
Now I see it; he was thinking something like “OMG this kid is gonna get us almost, but not quite, killed, but with horrible crippling revolting painful disgusting disfiguring injuries, AND get us both arrested!”
I came across this page while doing a Google search for images of aircraft I’d worked on in the navy & found your photo of the T2 I worked in Powerplants in the last 2 years of VT9 @NAS Meridian. they went to civilian contract & I transferred to AIMD powerplants. I was originally stationed in Meridian after A school too in VT7 after a brief time in the line division I had a chance to get a back seat hop in the TA4. loved it!!!
then I was off to the powerplant shop till I transferred to P3′s in Brunswick Maine with VP10 the “Red Lancers”. I liked working on the A4′s best, guess cause I got to know them so well. I worked the night shift. Which a lot of times sucked because you didn’t have a shift to relieve you at a certain time, unless you were there till the day shift came back in. Quitting time was when there was enough “up” aircraft for the morning launch. But I took pride in doing my mechanical work on the A4′s. Many times we were loaded to the gills with work & understaffed. I had gotten good at engine removal, many times for the sake of saving time I’d do the whole bit to remove an engine. Normally, before we could remove the engine the electricians had to disconnect all their wiring harnesses, the hydraulic guys had to disconnect all their lines, Airframes guys had to disconnect all the control cables & remove the tail section from the plane, then we could remove the engine. It’d take 3-4 hours on a good night to wait for ppl to get their parts done to and have the engine out to go to AIMD. I watched all the shops do their job & eventually started doing them all myself. On a good night I could go out in the hanger, get everything disconnected, remove the tail & have the engine out in less than 2 hours all by myself.
Loved reading your story Lex, thanks for sharing it. Anyone replying to my comment, please drop me an e-mail. Chances are that I won’t find this page again. Merry Christmas to all my fellow Veterans. U S Navy 1977 – 1988