One of the things I’ve told my daughters to look for when they venture out into the world and date, you know: Men – is that not all of them are the people they’ll present themselves to be. Some of them will be good folks, and some of them less so. It’s really hard to tell the difference between the two while they’re trying to woo you. There are good men out there. But men can be swine.
I know from men.
Daughters: How do you tell the good guys from the users, dad?
Your Correspondent: Here’s a hint: When he takes you out to dinner, don’t pay so much attention to the way he treats you. He’s trying to impress you. If you want to know how he’ll treat you when the time for impressing you is over, watch the way he treats the waitress. That’ll show you what kind of person he is inside, whether his heart is in the right place, or whether he’s only faking it until he gets what he wants.
I think that’s pretty good advice.
“…watch the way he treats the waitress.”
Depends on how cute the waitress is.
I forgot to leave a tip at a fly-in last year, and to make it even worse, it was after being treated to a free lunch! I felt like a total slug.
http://tinyurl.com/y4xepk
Re: the fatherly advice and the waitress … I think you might learn more about a guy from how he actually treats the waitress (and other “service” people) independent of tipping, even. They also say you can tell by how a guy treats his mother but … who wants to meet one of them too soon?
Re: Hillary … $100 tip on a $157 bill?
I had to read that three times to make sure I had it right. Yeah, right , completley believable… who does that??
Independent of Hillary, what’s with the whole tipping thing anyway? Sure, if you’re a politician on the hustings, its no doubt a very good idea. But for the rest of us, the rest of the time? Sometimes I do and sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I don’t have the cash or the right cash (I’m not Hilary, so you know, something smaller than a $20 might be nice), sometimes I don’t like the service, sometimes I don’t even think about it, doesn’t even occur to me….
Does that make me a bad person? Nah, sorry, I’m not buying it.
Pretty good advice there! I would add that most guys younger than 22 don’t know who they are yet so you won’t know them either. Don’t be in a hurry for anything. You and all that you are and will be is precious. The good ones will wait. The rest are chaff.
Most EXCELLENT advice.
As for the link? Yeah, I’ve heard a lot of first hand stories just like that. 1 or 2? might be gossip. 3 or 4? take notice. More? signals a pattern……..
Watch also how the man’s father treats his mother. Young men tend to become their father; young women marry someone like their father.
Also, I recall Hillary in a speech somewhere offering a Brand New Though that in a major caring project, she would start paying attention/thanking the WH staff–a real sacrifice for her!
Which is why some of us find things like the White House travel office firings and other events to be telling of her real persona v. the one she wants us to see.
Cap’n,
As the father of three daughter and grandfather to five granddaughters, I compliment you on your sage advice.
If I may add some minor additives: Watch how he acts around others of both genders. Listen to the way he talks about others. A boor will stand out like a sore thumb. A cad is easily identified by the two faced nature of his comments and behavior. A loser is usually the person who asks his date for tip money.
Awesome advice and a great story. From experience i have been told by my current interest she knew she really liked me by the way I treated all others around me, waitstaff included.
About Hillary, it’s the little oversights that lead to the bigger ones.
Skip a step on a checklist, landing gear or going from 10 deg to 20 deg of flaps for example, can cause a major problem down the road, like a belly landing or running out of grass to stop on.
Little things, you know?
What if he’s hitting on the waitress?
Mine’s 12..where to begin…Ahhh later..Gee how do you begin to tell ‘em usefull stuff they need to know, with the downside being they might think you (not you Lex) were possibly swine-like once or twice a long time ago?
b2
When I was dating my wife we had a weekend together. We got lost on the backroads of Vermont so I stoped and asked directions at an old country garage I found along the road. Real neat rustic place with just one old guy standing in the open doorway. In just seconds I discovered the old guy was a WWII Navy Bosun. We were immediately laughing and shaking hands and talking about our love of the sea and service. I thanked him for his sacrafice and told him I was honored to be carying the torch he had held during the war… She watched from the car as we discussed my failure to navigate backroad Vermont with both of us laughing and acting like we were life-long friends. She knew then (as I have been told later) that we were to be married. She coulda waited for the proposal but…
As for Hillary. Did you ever read the book (I forget the name of it… can’t find it on amazon) written by the Air Force staffer who was responsible for the “football”. Hillary treated staff like grabage according to the book. Telling indeed.
The book referenced by Danger is “Dereliction of Duty” By LCOL “Buzz” Patterson.
It’s tough to take on a first person account as not true. Excellent book. I read it a few years back.
My dad used to tell me when dating those of the female gender to open the car door for the lady.
If she opened yours for you once inside, it was a good sign of her caliber.
Dunno what the reversal would be, but as I have 2 girls I guess I better start figuring it out in a hurry
Although my current “law” is they can’t date until they draw social security
BadBob- NEVER EVER admit to it. As far as your kids are concerned you are pure as the driven snow.
Tammi, Yep. Right on. Look for a pattern.
I met a Vietnam-era fighter pilot on my vacation last week. He made casual reference to the fact that Hillary wouldn’t let military personnel from the Pentagon wear their uniforms when visiting the White House. Can’t find out anything about that – does anyone know if it’s true?
As for how men treat waitresses – it’s true. The first nice dinner I had with my now Hubby, he was so amazingly courteous and respectful to everyone we encountered – it was a totally fulfilled promise of things to come.
GEO6
My youngest daugher (11) keeps asking me how I *know*.
Sometimes its a little hard to answer that one … and keep the snow completley pure. We do the best we can.
Kris ~ I think I recall reading that tidbit in Buzz Patterson’s book. I have it upstairs and can check later on if need be. I do know (from a friend’s personal experiences working within in the WH during the Clinton years) that the overall atmosphere and attitude toward military personnel was overwhelmingly negative at that time.
badbob ~ NOW is the time to start, if not years ago. Best thing you can do is to be a good example. Set the bar high. My Daddy is a wonderful man and has always been the epitome of a gentleman in my eyes. MacGyver was the only man ever to measure up in my eyes.
Michelle @ 3,
For most bartenders and wait staff, the base pay is below minimum wage. The majority of their income is usually from tips. Always take care of your bartenders and wait staff.
“He should have the nicest sense of personal honor.” –John Paul Jones
In short, a gentleman in every sense of the word. Very few young men not connected with service in some form have role models for this today. They cause a lot of pain to others–and experience just as much themselves –before they grow up. Some never do. Usually the bad boys that many girls mistakenly want to ’save’ from themselves, just because they are ‘gritty’ or ‘interesting’. They’re every dad’s nightmare.
Pretty difficult for the average kid these days to be a real gentleman at a young age, what with few high-profile ‘adult’ males who behave with true self-respect around to emulate, while many who could and should be emulated are mocked or ignored by the media. In a world where only NOW counts, the hormonal override is always waiting to get the better of still maturing judgement.
A gentleman is not for himself alone. He knows he is both a treasured legacy from a past that produced him, and a bridge to a future that can’t unfold without him. A future largely dependent on his present actions, his example, and his willingness to humbly change and mature. A young man simply can’t have all these attributes at once. But he should aspire to them, and that aspiration is what makes him increasingly trustworthy. Does he stay stuck in the inevitable learning mistakes he will make, or does he resolve to do and to be, better? Is he Wickham or Darcy in Pride & Predjudice? A smooth fake or a diamond in the rough?
Teaching daughters to discern the difference between male charm based on need and true confidence based on humility isn’t always easy. Humility can look boring. But a young woman who was raised by a gentleman [however much she may rebel against it] will still eventually recognize the better choice. Because he’s familiar and good and wants her for herself, not for what’s missing in him– the best combination.
I’ve really got to file this tidbit away until I need it. I’d like to think that I won’t ever need it, but I’m a realist. At some point, my daughter is probably going to get her heart broken by some cad. It hurts a little now just imagining it. I can’t even fathom how bad it will be if (when) it actually happens.
We knew our daughter had found her gem when she was tasked with digging up sod to make a garden while we ran to the dump to get rid of the rock and dirt we’d already dug up. We ended up seeing some friends along the way and were late getting back. (We’d been working on the project all week, so she had just begun her share.) When we got home, there he was digging and hauling and working hard while she was “assisting” him with … kind thoughts, maybe? He ended up staying all weekend (separate bedrooms, as far as I could tell or wanted to know) and working with all of us on the project.
Figured that she had called him to moan about how mean we were and had abandoned her, so he drove the one hour to help her out — basically doing it for her.
It had to be true love on his part for that effort! Hers too, it turned out. They’ve been married 6 years now.
If I had a boy, your post would be framed and hung in my home, CPT J.
While you’re advising your daughters, remind them to watch how the young man/men treat the elderly also. Old folks often can’t move as fast, aren’t in general as aggressive to get the attention of food servers and clerks as younger folks are.
If a young military man or woman holds a door for an older person, lifts their luggage into the overhead bins on an airplane, steadies their steps in the crowds rushing off an airplane … well, he or she is one of the good guys.
When I used to fly to San Antonio and back once a month, my lifelong love and respect for the military was confirmed over and over, by young people who expressed all that was best about our country’s unique spirit.
I loved them all. They were kind, over and over again.
Marianne Matthews
Very good point, Marianne.
Beautifully said, CPT J.
As the mother of only boys I can tell you that from around 12 to 18 years old it is almost a daily struggle to instill those values (or even get a chance to present them).
I’d tell her, “is this a young man you’d want your mother to meet…and come to know well?” And then at the appropriate time, tell the lad that whatever he does to your darling daughter, you’re going to do to HIM.
Great advice Lex. And not just waitresses, but all the other people the “he” in your lesson comes in contact with. If he was ‘raised right’ then he’ll be a gentleman to all with a smile on his face to match the smile in his heart…..and if he’s that kind of guy, you better chaperone.
Good advice Lex, and all the other commenters as well – I have two daughters, 5 and 8, and have already been thinking about things like this that lie ahead.
I’ll be copying this advice somewhere for future reference!
Excellent advice. It was advice my father gave me as well. And I used it. There were quite a few man/boys that I did not go out with again based on how they treated waitstaff. It was hammered home too as I waited tables through college. I’ve been on both sides.
I use that same gage now when I am with people I am getting to know and we meet for a meal. If they are rude to the waitstaff, I call them on it, and make sure I never have anything to do with them again. I have no patience for people who feel superior to others and must ’show it’ it by treating those in the service industry as muck. No patience whatsoever.
An old resident of mine when I worked as a graduate RA taught women’s self defense. First he taught how to handle themselves by being cognoscente of their surroundings, and a whole lot of gross motor bashing. Finally, he taught them basic ground fighting. His thinking was “What happens if the worst occurs and he gets you to the ground? Most women panic.” He then taught how to defend from the ground and use it to their advantage. Makes sense because some times you never know about the person until you make that decision to share the most personal times. Good thing to know how to handle one’s self then as well.
Good advice, and double for Dadmanly’s.
I’m glad our two daughters are growed up and married, and happily, if not always perfectly so. (A state that pretty much all of us, likely.)
How a young man treats the staff is one thing, and a very telling thing. How he treats the stranger and his co-workers is another data point. Remember, out of a normal day he spends 1/3rd asleep, 1/3rd with you and the sprogs and running errands, but he for certain is going to spend 1/3rd or more with his co-workers.
Ask them if they’d want him to babysit for them, or if they’d invite him to a bar-b-q, and above all ask the secretaries and security and janitors what they think of him.
Familiarity breeds contempt. If the man hath contempt, it will surface first at the workplace.
– Max
If possible, tip in cash. That ensures the waitron gets the money. Some restaurants (illegally) hijack a portion of CC tips as a in-house tax.
For grest stories from the front lines of waiterdom check out the archives of http://waiterrant.net/
I sure have seen some secretaries treated badly. And, stop to think about it, its much more likely to be the male of the species showing his bad graces. But then again, I work with lawyers, right?
I was just having a conversation with the Director of the Law Library (kind of like head the librarian but no, she’s not frumpy) the other day about articling clerks (one of the lowest forms of life, trapped between a law student and being a lawyer). She said there were only 2 over 20 years. One she simply calmly said “You do not want to treat a librarian that way. Think about it. Talk to other lawyers. You just don’t want to treat a librarian that way”. The other… well apparently she found him sitting in her office, on the phone with his feet up on her desk. He, she yelled at. And told him in some not so nice language to get his feet off her desk and out of her office. Yep, he’s a partner now in some law firm. But Idon’t care how ’successful’ he is, I sure wouldn’t want to be his wife … or daughter … or secretary…. or mother…
Michelle, I always told my boys it was always smarter and less painful to learn from the mistakes of others. So I stayed out of trouble.
GEO6
Had one with the lad (15, 6′ tall) last night that made me proud. We where picking up a few groceries, when a rather tiny lady was attempting to reach the top shelf for an item. He kindly offered to get the item for her. Made me proud to see the lad act as a gentleman.
Probably why he got a date to the Sadie Hawkins dance so quickly. That has me scared.
Being one of the young pups, I have adopted one simple rule from working on the railroad for two summers:
Have I treated the crew well enough that the gang will stop me/get me out of the way of a dangerous situation even with risk of injury.
If the answer is no, then I have some hard thinking to do, and will be bringing coffee the next morning.
Oh, yeah, Geo, reminds me of a story my Uncle Frank, the merchant mariner told me before he died.
There were some guys whose ship got torpedoed. Some of them got away, in a lifeboat. There was not enough food, and one of them got somewhat eaten before they were rescued.
I was a bit grossed-out at the tale and asked my Uncle, “Was he dead”?
Unc replied, “Well, he was dead when they ate him.”
The moral of this story: Do not be the least-popular person in the lifeboat!