Ten hour meetings of a cross-functional team. Even if that team did manage to garner greater than $500 million in savings and cost avoidances over the FYDP. For you.
A rabid pack of O-6′s mercilessly haranguing a senior chief petty officer from the Bureau of Personnel over the difference between manning requirements, funded billets, basic allowance, navy manning plan and personnel currently on board. (Requirements are what we need to fight a ship in extended general quarters. Billets funded are what the Navy thinks it can afford [less]. BA is the wartime fair share [still less]. NMP is what they actually intend to give you [less - are you spotting a trend?]. COB is what you’ve actually got [the smallest number of the lot].
Yeah, it’s a crazy world. The senior chief didn’t make it. He can’t change it. Let it go.
The new guy on the team that shows up for his first meeting and spends an hour of everybody else’s time noisily questioning the underlying assumptions behind the resolutions to arguments settled two years ago amidst metaphorical rivers of staff officer blood.
Finally, and most profoundly: Mexican food in Norfolk, Virginia.
What the hell was I thinking?
Having successfully avoided staff duty during my career, I can’t speak to most of your post, but Mexican food in Norfolk? Truely an abomination!
Hey, short timer!
Remember back when you thought you could change all that?
Bet yet, remember the times to you did and foregt the times you couldn’t.
I got out after 8 because I couldn’t stand the frustration, and remember well, the tipping point. My skipper pointed told me, and I quote, “The Navy is no place for management.” And no, that isn’t out of context, he meant exactly that.
Shees! I can’t even count the typos. Can you tell I’m still pissed? Maybe I should take my own advice.
Ew. Were you really that homesick for Mexican food that you went for it in Norfolk?? Good God, man. There’s a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
Taco Bell would have been a better choice. Seriously though, you live in Southern California! Why not just wait until you get home?
Counting the links on your short timer chain yet?
HFS, you seem to have forgotten he has a history of “interesting” interactions with Mexican food…
If I had several hundred billion sitting around doing nothing I’d give it to the Navy. The Navy is part of the reason we are allowed to take up the space we do on the world map. Without it, there is no USA. This underfunding of the Navy does us no good. The trends are disturbing.
Oh captain, my captain … how could you eat Mexican food in Norfolk, when you could have had delicious lobster, she-crab soup and other sea-born delights.
I still fondly remember a board meeting my husband and I attended [five long days] in Virginia Beach. We went out to dinner at a splendid seafood restaurant every night. And every night I had the same delicious menu: she- crab soup, and broiled lobster tail. I smiled at everyone every day, I was so happy. Living in Houston, we don’t get many lobster dinners. As Downs says, it’s a long way for them to swim down here. Plenty of beautiful shrimp, blue crab and gorgeous mud-bugs [crawfish, as you know] But none of my favorite shellfish in the world–lobster. Sigh…
Marianne Matthews
Mexican? When there’s Doumar’s and Rajput around? Sheesh.
By the way, yesterday I saw a C-2 roll about 80 degrees to port and make the dangedest break I ever saw out of a COD. Half expected him to fall right out of the sky. You going for your multi-engine prop ticket?
Multi-engine prop ticket? I already got one. It’s verr nice.
Marianne, you’re right. You’re always right. Should have called you first
80 degrees? No way, we’re NATOPS limited to 60. Never happened
How can you do dome-overs if you’re limited to 60 degrees AOB?
Dome-over? What dome-over?
I once saw what looked like a C-2 with dome inverted. I called a buddy who’s in the Air Force, asked him what he thought of it. His immediate response: “unless it took you up an did medical experiments on you, you were seeing things that didn’t happen. If it did take you up and do medical experiments on you, it was a weather balloon.”
I have *got* to take him out to lunch next time I’m in Omaha, NE.
Regarding the stuff Lex is annoyed at, I keep the following sentence close at hand whenever my valuable time is asked to be spent in jawing-sessions: “Rome did not become the greatest empire the world has seen by holding meetings and debating. It did so by killing all those it opposed. There is a real business model in that bit of trivia.”
Unfortunately, I still get told to attend meetings.
– Max
Lex,
Isn’t it nice of BUPERS to help you implement “smart ship” manning without even troubling you with regard to the gory details? Aren’t they helpful and full of good intentions?
Fortunately for me, when they held the gun to my head and said I must be a member of a CFT, the gun accidentally discharged 3 times and they decided that perhaps somebody else was better qualified.
Nice to see all of you worryin’ about the Senior Chief! Don’t bother, they made all of us even-keeled, we can handle it. Smart Ship manning would work, can work, will work, if they ever listen to the guys on the deckplates, eliminate superfluous jobs that only add to the mouths to feed, and trust the technology the DO have aboard (think 2 watchstanders in an engineroom, plus another monitoring in CCS from afar, WHY?). A contributing issue is that todays ‘modern’ warship is fully 15 -20 years behind the power curve when it comes to technology, by and large. They only recently really started to embrace COTS Tech stuff, and getting even that stuff aboard is difficult at best (think OBA’s, how long did we harp on the bean counters to put SCBA’s aboard ship?). All of this goes to manning levels. With the right technology, even your own avocation Lex could go away, save the the ability to, you know, reason before pulling the trigger…
Fortunately, most aboard a modern destroyer don’t need that type of reasoning.
Tailspin
Re your tipping point. Someone pointed out to me a long time ago that “You manage things, You lead people” There is a big difference.
FYDP? I thought that was what you said to a horse to get it going. ;-0
Read carefully. “Cost avoidance” always = people in order to “smoke & mirror” $$ for shortfall in the FHP. What I’m hearing.
Amazin. o-6′s gotta come outta of room with some kind of idea….Who else?
b2
Lobstah is nectar of the gods.
Marianne,
I have bad news for you dear. If you ate Lobstah in Va Beach, it probably flew into town just like you did. If you want to eat local, Crabs are at the top of the list. We also get lots of Rockfish (AKA Striped Bass), Tuna, Wahoo, Dolphin (euphemistically called “Mahi Mahi”) and Shrimp. Gotta watch the shrimp, there is lots of local shrimp from N.C., but there is also a lot from Viet Nam and other such locales.
But thanks for visiting. We appreciate your contributions to the local economy.
Tell me it wasn’t a chain restaurant in Norfolk. Not that.
Cap’n,
Used to be that when senior officers wanted to know the true story, they would talk to the Goat Locker. No one knows what it takes to run a ship better than those experienced people. Senior officers dumping on a Senior Chief sends messages all through the enlisted ranks. We had enormous manning problems in the ’70′s (the Abysmal Carter Years) when a Leahy class ship had roughly 65% manning (and even lower morale). Want to see retention rates go in to the toilet? Go back to those days and watch what happens.
Someone should tell BUPERS they are broken. At least if the stories my friends tell me are true, they can’ t fill billets anywhere. The new PERS-43 by all accounts is one clueless bastard-at least as far as Japan is concerned.
We had enormous manning problems in the ’70’s (the Abysmal Carter Years) when a Leahy class ship had roughly 65% manning (and even lower morale).
I well remember those days . I was on a broke d_ck Forrest Sherman with 60/40 manning. Only problem was we didn’t stay “reserve”, and were routinely underway in operational commitments with not much more than the 60%.
In ’77 I got shanghaied aboard another Forrest Sherman because they didn’t have enough OS’s to fully man up their NGFS team for quals up at Bloodswoth Island. Wouldn’t have been so bad except this was two weeks after getting back to Mayport from a 7 month Africa/MEF cruise.
Can’t say I have much to wax nostalgic about.
“Mexican food in Norfolk, Virginia.
What the hell was I thinking?”
Lex Lex Lex
I expect more out of that well honed mind of yours. You must have been seriously deprived. Maybe the folks in VA and the folks in SoC can compromise and you can start holding those meetings in Texas. Collateral damage like that would be all but alleviated…yeah all but…nothing you can do about the new guys…
Ah yes, the memories of the Carter years! Port and report duty sections, no parts, no fuel, no personnel and little pay. Almost everyone married and with kids under Cdr on foodstamps. The can C.O. in Norva that Casrep’ed his ship because of manning. Midnight transfers of personnel and equipment between ships to make cruise’s. Six month cruises that had 45 days or less at sea due to funding. Those were the days. Our Navy survived and will continue to survive, we just have to do what we are extremely proficeint at: Turn to and carry out the Plan of the Day!
The only civilian government counterpart to these CFT meetings that comes to mind is briefing the new legislators that control your budget about your agency and what it does.
Yes, they usually mean well. Yes, they have the attention span of a 2 year old. Yes, they really are that stupid –or so shrewd and calculating and operating so way beyond your sphere that it is often impossible to tell the difference.
10 hours later, what actually happened in there?
Was it good or bad?
Yes.
Sir-
I spent 4 wonderful years while across the Roads at Langley AFB hitting EVERY restaurant in reach, and for my money the three best are still:
#3 – Fisherman’s Wharf on Willoughby Spit,
#2 – Anna’s Pizza and Subs on Armistead out by Langley, and
#1 – Christina Campbell’s Tavern in Williamsburg – worth it alone to have lunch where George Washington and Patrick Henry used to have chow.
Mike
Mexican food in Virginia?
You couldn’t have seriously thought that was anywhere close to real.
I think you are currently in an area where it is as close as it gets without actually going across the border.
When GE transferred me from San Diego to Norfolk, the only thing we found even remotely resembling Mexican was in Virginia Beach. A place called Listas. The Rosa Camarone (BBQ shrimp) was to die for. WAY to hot. WAY too good. By the time your done eating it, you were soaked in sweat. Maybe about 2 years later, the place disappeared. Rumor had it, they moved to Baltimore. NExt time I went to DC, I looked them up. There they were, in the waterfront district. Next time you go there, definately look them up. You will be glad you did. Give my regards to Rubin
Keith
By the way, there’s a write-up on them: http://search.cityguide.aol.com/baltimore/restaurants/listas-southwestern-grill/v-123221
I guess they moved again
Lee @15 sez: Smart Ship manning would work, can work, will work, if they ever listen to the guys on the deckplates…
Your comment, Lee, flies in the face of months and months and months of venting from my Son Number Two, who was a CHENG (on a CG) on his last sea tour. If ever there was a subject that made SN2 lose it, it was Smart Ship manning. Admittedly, I’m not even at arms length from this subject, but I DO have the experience of listening to SN2 vent about the Smart Ship wars. There were some small victories but many more defeats.
It was hard (from a wide range of perspectives — personal, professional, national defense, yadda, yadda) listening to SN2 unload…but that’s one of the things The Ol’ Man is required to do. Job description, and all that.
Just sayin’.
Seriously, Lex…typical Navy flyboy. Can’t figger out which way to go without the OS pointing the way. Just ’cause there’s lots of Mexicans taking up residence in Va Beach, doesn’t mean they’re opening restaurants. Seafood should always be first on your mind while in town and if you happen to wander off the beaten track into Chick’s Beach and get a craving for italian, try Zia Marie.
Nothing brings back painful memories like remembering playing Red Crown on the SoCar in the Adriatic during ’95-96. Dear God, that was a long cruise…
Buck –
Simmer down, Spike.
I’d hardly say that one counter opinion is flying in anyones face. With that said, my opinion is based on 22 years serving on destroyers and frigates, with 19 of it as actual “sea time” (I’ll let you chastise my detailers, I’m done with it, that dog won’t hunt… “needs of the Navy, ya know”). I’ve trained a few CHENGS in my day, and while I’m sure yours has some valid points, I’m sure I could counter them with equally valid points. That said, try to remove some of the fabric that my post seems to have caused to be sucked in the the nether regions… I never meant for THAT to happen!
I’m just sayin’…
OK, Lex, here’s what I’m (NOTSO) digging about personnel stuff….
All than NMP, M+1, BA, COB, etc. Fine, get it. No way to operate when actually in M+1 (aren’t we “a nation at war” already?), but I get it.
Throw in the up one (never), down one (always) in rank detailing thing and ya wind up with overall less experience. Oh, and BTW, that can (historically speaking) make for an ugly SORTS since those systems are divergently illogical.
Add to that the CVN TAD requirements. Get it. Gotta feed our folks, gotta ditch the trash, gotta clean the clothes, life at sea is tough. Get it. But then don’t slash the ships’ Supply Dept personnel by more than half and leave that same number of airwing TAD guys to hump the carcass of bad decision-making 18+ hours a day seven days a week.
Take my PNs away and assign them ashore for “reachback” (at least until they’re replaced by civilians. Get it. But when I’m Zulu plus one and they’re Zulu minus eight or it’s a weekend or the comms are down, there’s no one to reach out to. Why not just put a PSD in Bangalore? It’d be cheaper and more accessible.
Speaking of outsourcing, why is it that when I fly a night hop in SOCAL, a forecaster in Norfolk completes my Dash 1? I’ve been asked, “What’s a Marine Layer?”
“Sea Shore rotation” out. “Sea/Shore Flow” is in.
Okay, best for last. IAs. GWOT. Long War. Help out Army=Protect 10k billets. Got it. Taking IAs from the deploying squadrons. Ouch, but still get it. CVW-5 not playing IA games. Sorta get it? Using an assignment process akin to playing Russian Roulette and musical chairs to randomly pluck one sailor at a (inevitably inopportune) time mid-tour? Don’t get it. The whole touted, long awaited grand plan to have IAs built into Bupers detailing. Still waiting. Meanwhile, still filling and refilling and refilling those same IA billets using the same old sledge hammer process we started with. And don’t even try to talk business rules. Each claimancy uses their own set which subsequently changes them to fit the billet requirment at hand. And the worst part of IAs. COs that sell an IA assignment to someone with a below-avg record with the advice that going IA is “career-enhancing.”
FB
That sums it up nicely. I’d add one other thing. Enlisted have had JASS fro a while now-officers STILL do not have a system that allows them to see the billets that are out there and nake some choices on their own. Every time the question gets asked, the answer ususally is that no one has time to do it. Makes me wonder why some of that money the Navy is blowing on so called studies of diversity are not used to pay some webmasters to keep the web pages updated.
Skippy-san,
Diversity, changing workforce, new demographics, stay competitive. Get it. Stats on how many of this shape or texture are joining and staying in: worthless. Those numbers are simply useless because we’re not doing quotas (last I knew). Gotta take it at least two steps down the road to find ways to attract and keep greatness. That’s why I have an issue with using the word diversity. It leads one to easily stop at the % stats of minorities and women and play stump the chump when the answer to retaining greatness is at least a few layers of onion away.
Good that you bring up JASS (or whatever it’s called this quarter). My guess as to why detailing is so much less transparent for officers is summed up in one word: control. No one is willing to set the autopilot and let go of the yoke. They’re simply afraid. More on O-detailing in a second.
JASS is nowhere near perfect. Let’s say I’ve got an open billet that pops in the green. Need the guy, shop’s hurting. SORTS even tells me so. No one takes it. Months pass. Billet goes grey, meaning it’s there, but no one can take it. Why? The gapped sea-duty billet is no less required than three months ago, even more so. Programs suffer. Training suffers. No one can take up the billet. How is that logical?
Simple question. If we make the “right number of CPOs” each year on 9/16, then why does it seem that on 9/17 every sea duty squadron in the Fleet still has a gapped AEC billet?
Back to Os. Why do I keep seeing the same 100 or so O-5/6 Naval Aviators at sea when I know there’s thousands of others still collecting a paycheck? Are those 100 familiar faces the only ones not playing the “I’m gonna drop my letter” game with Bupers? Is everyone else unscreenable? Is everyone else absorbed into OPNAV and NAVAIR? I hear the BS comeback, “They’ll vote with there feet.” I say put the ballot in their face and make them vote. “You haven’t been on sea duty for three consecutive tours. It’s GW, TR, or Hi-3. You pick.” If they leave, great. We’ll pay them a smaller retirement check and the motivated guys behind them will promote faster. My guess, though, is that most won’t. The Navy security blanket has permanently grown into their butts and they’ll stay. Conversely, don’t take a guy that has done his time at sea, that puts in his retirement letter, deny his request and send him to Iraq when there are a lot of other F-ers that haven’t been to sea since before 9/11.
“Mexican Food in VA Beach”
For those of us keeping score at home, is that an unforced error, or a self inflicted wound?
What you fail to understand is that Congress gives us a budget. N1 tells us what we can spend and then the Bureau carries out wiping up the tears. Really an ingenious system if your in charge of the purse. SLight corrections:
BA = Billets authorized…set by NAVMAC and is the requirements. If it changes your force agreed to it period.
NMP – Navy manning plan is equal distirbution of available assets. Sure it is less but would you want the sqdrn next to you having 100 percent while you sit at 50 because the guy next store knows the dude currently at the Bureau?
COB – represents who is on the deckplate right now. Usually higher than in the next five(P5) months or the next nine(P9).
P5 = is probably what you will see as a COB becauser the distirbution system is empty at 5 months out except for special duties.
P9 = worst case scenario. Millington implodes (I know it sounds good to many of you) P9 will never happen.
Here is where units screw themselves.
UPL- Sailor immaturity and sometimes low leadership provides opportunities for young Sailors to end their service through a variety of means. Some cant be avoided some can. Point is the distro system is empty at 5 months so that is your immediate wait time.
Not knowing how this system works affects every Commander in the fleet. Yet I have yet to run across someone in command who has a complete grasp. You would think it was important.
Things like not following up and completing admin actions on shitcanning that Sailor that absolutely needs it means he counts but you cant use him or her.
Anyways enough bitching. If you dont have enough manpower write congress not the bureau. We distribute, we do not create.
As I said, BA, NMP, COB, P5, P9: got it.
“Anyways enough bitching. If you dont have enough manpower write congress not the bureau. We distribute, we do not create.”
We’re the ones that write the POM submissions that Congress signs off on. We did this to ourselves, and we’d frankly be better off with one less CSG and CVW than trying to make a broken system work.
“We distrubute,” even to an East Coast airwing that hasn’t deployed in 3 years and fully man a CSG in Japan that has deploys less than NIMITZ CSG and REAGAN CSG.
Well, that sounds good, but when the CVW/CVN goes away, the “work” goes with it and the billets get re-capitalized. Everybody’s got their bills to pay and POM-10 is not going away.
BOO!
SO your saying our POM submissions didnt have a highend set before we went to the table?
Very naive.
Something tells me if we distribute to a unit that is not working then the folks on the business end arent doing their job giving up the billets out of fear that they will be used somewhere they dont have control over.
Naive to the logic of the Navy’s manpower system? You bet.