See the world. Start a fight:
From the 18th century to the present day, threats to American ships and maritime commerce have been the way most U.S. wars start. The pattern began early. Attacks by the Barbary pirates in the Mediterranean led President Thomas Jefferson to send the U.S. Navy thousands of miles on a risky expedition to suppress the threat to American merchant ships in 1801. During the Napoleonic Wars, British and French interference with U.S. commerce led to a series of crises and undeclared “quasi-wars” that culminated in the War of 1812.
And the list goes on, according to Walter Russell Meade writing in the WSJ: From Sumatran pirates to “Remember the Maine!”, World War I merchant ships to Pearl Harbor, the Tonkin Gulf, Mayaguez, Starke… and now, nearly, the Strait of Hormuz.
We’re nice guys. Leave us alone. Or else.
Tom Cafferty on CNN suggested the next time the Iranians get within range, we knock off a couple of their “boats”. Mr. Cafferty’s message to Tehran: You had 8 boats, now you’ve got 6. Want to try that again? I thought not.
Sounded like decent policy to me (assuming the latest NIE on Iranian nuclear capabilities/programs is accurate this time).
Spent a few moments sharing coversation and coffee with a WWII Merchant Marine 2nd Officer. Hauled AVGAS around in tanker, did he.
Told me how he had a rigged a cot on deck under the 5″/38 cal open gun tub, because he wasn’t going to be below during an attack.
One day, for fun, the gun crew decided to do their test firing without notifying the sleeping officer…:)
Anyhow, he said they traveled at 6 kts from the Gulf to NY, heading into any available safe refuge at night to stay clear of the U Boats.
God love those men who carried the supplies at risk of life and limb to keep the men fighting the Big One.
Well, as far as Mead goes, he sure was selective in making his point. Sometimes we get attacked and wars don’t start– what about Panay, Reuben James and the Liberty? He didn’t even try to account for those 3 examples. The political situation almost always outweighs the military action.
With Iran, whether or not we shoot first depends on what the Iranians do. That amateur water ballet from last week? For my money, they can do that all they want. However, if they come that close again AND man weapons against us? As Bill Paxton once said, ‘Game over, man!’
/Beach Bum
No, I don’t think we should let them get that close. You can pack a lot of explosives (enough to hurt a think skinned CG) in a small boat. Anything closer than 1500 yards should be considered a hostile act.
Next time blow them out of the fricken water… I don’t want any sailors lost due to restraint. I don’t care what our international policy is or where the CIC might be at the time. I don’t want any sailors lost to hysterical Iranians period.
I say again that maybe those countries that get the majority of oil from the Persian Gulf should step up and patrol the straits.
Actually, it’s a strange feature of maritime law that straits – which would ordinarily be overlapping territorial seas of the abutting nations – can only be patrolled by those nations for law enforcement purposes, and then only on their own “side” of centerline. They can be transited by other states under the right of transit passage – a limited right that carries with it obligations. None of which prevent a sovereign vessel from defending itself or coming to the assistance of same flag merchants.
Absolutely concur with Babs, and had called my Senators, Congressman and Senate/House leadership to forcefully express my opinion.
Those who say we did good by exercising restraint would be singing a different tune if we had been attacked and lost lives.
lex,
this is a crazy thought but is there any chance the call on the radio “in two minutes you’re boat will explode” came from one of those commercial ships we see in the background of the video? someone maybe just stupidly screwing around? something about the broken English just didn’t sound right.
damn, no way to edit. i mean “your” not “you’re”.
Mead is correct only with some cases. He fails to do an in-depth look at all maritime incidents. In the 19th century ships largely used overwhelming force because to wait for permission from Washington would have meant months, so captains were given both military and diplomatic authority to deal with these attacks. In the last forty years, as some folks pointed out, we have been less likely to respond to incidents. I think it’s because of the immediacy of communication and the introduction of insta-media.
If 9/11 was not enough to trigger our rage and send us on a worldwide quest to stomp out the belief system that spawned our attackers, then an attack on a couple of military ships on the other side of the word won’t start anything. We are on the way to deciding which liberal Democrat is going to be the next President, the whole country would just shrug. And our Naval Officers no longer really command, do they? They take orders directly in real time from civilians far from the scene.
We sit like the proverbial frog in the pot, telling ourselves it’s just not warm enough to jump.
Reminds me of those “Messin’ with Sasquatch” ads. Pretty damn stupid.
Light ‘em up.
For those that think that Sunday’s little pissing contest was harmless… let me remind you about the USS Cole. As was said above… you can fit an awful lot of explosives in one fo those little boats.
In addition, IIRC those little boats dropped white boxes in the path of our ships. Who knows what is/was in those boxes.
Jim C
Ron, we wouldn’t be singing a different tune had lives been lost, we’d be asking for different rules of engagement now that the enemy had shown their stripes. At all times the US Navy is a projection of US policy, thus at all times we must hold the high ground morally and ethically when it comes to dealing with others on the high seas.
Take the Cole — absent guidance from Washington she had to let the boat approach and warn before opening fire, and was stung for her efforts. Henceforce nobody gets that close, and everybody knows why.
We may indeed be injured from 300 yards in the future by French-registered catamarans, but until that happens we want everybody to know the rules we play by and for them to know why we do so.
You just can’t go around shooting the stupid out of habit. For one, it gets you talked about. For another, you’ll soon run out of ammunition.
– Max
Nah, I’m o.k. with shooting the suicidally stupid that are threatening my life.
If I were still in the service I would not want my life expectancy shortened by being forced to adhere to your philosophy of “taking the high ground”.
Raise my taxes a bit if we start running low on ammo after shooting the suicidally stupid.
Adeodatus may be on the right track regarding the radio calls. The Gulf has a nasty RF environment, and it is almost always possible to hear VHF calls from 100 miles or more.
WRT ROE: Max effecitve range of an RPG is approx 300 yds. Max effective range of a suicide boat is probably more like 50 yds or less. I would say any boat with visible small arms or RPGs is weps free at 400 yds. All others are weps free at 100 yds. Both are kind of “seeing the whites of their eyes,” but they will get the idea once we ventilate a boat or two.
One thing that is shown in the Iranian video that is not evident in the US video, is that there was a helo in the air. I’m sure that those birds were definitely ready to remove the threat.
Yeah, but once the threat gets within 200 yards, shooting from a helo and not hitting a friendly can get tricksy.
“Yeah, but once the threat gets within 200 yards, shooting from a helo and not hitting a friendly can get tricksy.”
Isn’t that what the Phalanx system and the .50 cals are for, then let the helo take out those that get away or the others that do not engage.
Dave
This maybe a stupid question, but with speed boats don’t you have to worry about their momentum carrying them on into the target if we wait until 200yds or less to start shooting? If you think about a VBIED coming in at say 50mph, even if you put several rounds through the engine block and the driver the momentum will carry the VBIED on into the target. would the same hold true for speed boats?
Jim C
….Preble, Preble…..Edward…ah, here we are.
Ate first part of comment …ahhhhhhh!!!! Should have been:
(Getting out the Rolodex) ….Preble, Preble…..Edward…ah, here we are.
HMS Leopard vs. USS Chesapeake: A very important precedent, I think.
P.s. Oh, and lived most of the first five years of my life in a town named after Stephen Decatur. They had one of his swords in a glass case, in the courthouse. The curator told me that Decatur even spotted that despicable othe fellow his eyeglasses in the duel, just to be fair.
That duel was a nasty business, and according to Captain Beach, in a book he wrote, prejudiced Americans against Naval Officers for a long time.
Oh, (further) yeah, nuthin’ else says “OR ELSE!” as well as the Rattlesnake Jack!