Senator Rockefeller of West Virginia feels compelled to defend his endorsement of Barack Obama. Fair enough, he’s a far better judge of the tides and currents that run below the surface of his party than I am. If endorsing one candidate over the other needs defending, “play on,” says I.
But strangely the senator couldn’t leave it at that, he felt compelled to lash out at John McCain’s record of military service, among other things:
Rockefeller believes McCain has become insensitive to many human issues. “McCain was a fighter pilot, who dropped laser-guided missiles from 35,000 feet. He was long gone when they hit.
“What happened when they [the missiles] get to the ground? He doesn’t know. You have to care about the lives of people. McCain never gets into those issues.”
People of privileged backgrounds who themselves haven’t worn the burden of their country’s cloth ought to try to choose their words precisely. Alternatively, they should consider sticking to what they know.
McCain was not a fighter pilot, but an attack pilot. That was back in the day when attack pilots had to grovel in the SAM and AAA envelopes of highly defended targets in order to score a hit. Light attack jets like McCain’s A-4 were not equipped to carry laser guided bombs. Being on “government time” wasn’t merely a focusing technique but meant flying through lethal flak bursts as if they weren’t there. Because if you flinched, someone else would have to come back and do it for you; risk his life to complete your job.
Some of those that did so got shot down, were captured and spent years living the filth, degradation and torture of a North Vietnamese prison camp, trying to maintain a shred of dignity and all of their honor. Trying to keep faith with their fellows and their countrymen in the face of fierce physical and psychological abuse. While certain of their peers were working in the Peace Corps in Washington, DC, rubbing elbows with presidents. Caring about people.
(H/T to Michael Goldfarb for the story)
Update: Credit where it’s due.
I bet the telephone lines into the senate office building practically melted after a few million citizens tried to call Rockefeller’s office.
Cap’n,
All one needs to do is see the (D) after the name to realize the ‘good’ Senator hates the military.
Distinguished Gentleman from WV = boob.
If the military-industrial complex could come up with LGB and other PGMs back in Vietnam and our intelligence agencies could really keep them hidden for that long, we ought to reward them by increasing their budgets.
According to Wikipedia, the first laser-guided bomb was deployed in 1968 — the year after McCain was shot down and captured — and such weapons “did not become commonplace until the advent of the microchip. They made their practical debut in Vietnam, where on 13 May 1972 they were used in the second successful attack on the Thanh Hoa Bridge (‘Dragon’s Jaw’).”
Less than a year later, in January 1973 (after the Paris Peace Accords) , the US suspended offensive military operations in Viet Nam. With rare exceptions during those final months, Viet Nam was fought with dumb bombs: it was the war which dropped the phrase “carpet bombing” into English idiom.
You’re too diplomatic Lex, Rockefeller should STFU. His comments are disgusting.
#4 – sam — Laser guided bombs (LGB’s) were indeed quite effectively used in Vietnam, initially by the Air Force and later by the Navy. Of course their use was well toward the end of the war, and some years after Senator McCain was shot down.
But it is no secret that the testing and combat use of precision-guided munitions (PGM’s) does date back over 50 years.
I wonder about the good Senator from WV and his “intelligence.” Being on the Select Senate Committe on Intelligence that is.
Laser guided missiles being dropped?
Propulsion is such a difficult concept.
Allen, I’d tend to agree, but I think if I sent the Distinguished Gentleman my homework in it, the results wouldn’t be pretty.
I’m just surprised that the senator wouldn’t be more precise in his speech, knowing how criticism would flow. Isn’t confusing the Attack and Fighter communities a bit of a gaff? Where do the multi-role pilots fit?
Geo – “Isn’t confusing the Attack and Fighter communities a bit of a gaff? “
No. (except for maybe the most parochial drivers of such)
The confusion is quite common and not surprising, not only coming from Senator Rockefeller, but in many of the rightwing blogs now quibbling over the details of Vietnam tactics and aircraft nomenclature.
In Vietnam, regardless of whether they were classified as “A” (attack) or “F” (fighter) aircraft, most all were multi-mission and did both air-to-air (F) and air-to-ground (A) missions, despite their primary designed and designated mission.
In fact, “fighters” – F-8’s, F-105’s and F-4’s – dropped many, many bombs, and “attack” A-1’s and A-4’s actually downed a couple of MiGs. Others, like the A-7 were armed with Sidewinders for the air-to-air mission. Impressively, the supposed attack (air-to-ground) Israeli A-4’s downed quite an impressive number of Egyptian MiGs in Air-to-Air combat about the same time Senator McCain was shot down in his A-4.
Rockefeller’s comments are reprehensible. But he should at least be forgiven for his ignorance of A-4 mission and tactics. Much of the right wing blogesphere, by their inaccurate counter comments and criticism, ironically exposes a similar ignorance equal to Rockefeller’s.
Fliterman,
Not quite right about the Izzies knocking down migs with A4’s. The IAF did not get the A4 and F4 until after the 67 war. First deliveries were in 69. Lcdr McCain was downed in 67. I helped deliver replacement A4’s after the first few days of the 73 war due to their heavy losses to SA3 and SA7 systems. I talked with a lot of Israeli pilots and never heard any stories about the A4 in an air to air tangle with Egyptian migs. The rest of your comments about fighters and attack are also not quite right. The 105 was primarily a bomber but did have good fighter capability. The USAF did not use the term attack to designate their a/c. Everybody was a fighter pilot regardless of mission(if you were in TAC). The F8’s did drop bombs but in a limited capacity. The two A1 incidents that resulted in mig losses were hardly the result of an air to air capability but rather some really good A1 pilots fighting for their lives and some really stupid mig drivers.
I give no quarter to this , as Lex describes, “privileged”, Fool (my word). His ignorance is immense..I cannot comprehend how those folks in WV keep electing both him AND K3 Byrd…
Here we are, parsing details (always interesting I must admit..) on delivery systems of the 1960’s but we’re missing the big point- Jay’s attitude, which is “fleet average” for those Dem lefties. He may backtrack all day but the “loons” and those impressionable/ignorant young voters heard him loud and clear.
Details? We have an iron bomb Skyhawk regular here- JimmyJ. What say you?
Onto Obama- What Obama says, or doesn’t say , is his own personal failing that is making itself big-time evident. From the “Hate America Preacher” to this, his true stripes have been identified. He is simply a leftie, more left than we’ve ever seen on a national stage. EVER. Look at his associations from college to friends with unrepentant Wethermen, his ephiphanies coming of age and choosing “sides”, his limited official record. This guy is simply dangerous.
Time to take the gloves off.
b2
What a GD moron.
McCain had some Sky Raider time also ! Muy macho.
The whole idea of apologizing to McCain seems short-sighted. How about apologizing to ALL fighter pilots, indeed to all military aviators. Rockefeller insulted each of them – past to present. John McCain is a big boy who can handle the ignorant likes of someone like Rockefeller and who could use the insult to his own benefit in his campaign. Our brave men and women who have and currently do serve – deserve so much better.
Fliterman -
Not to pile on with Bill C, but I doubt A-7’s were ever assigned an AA mission. Corsair ‘Winders were for defense.
If I’m wrong, someone correct me, but I can’t see A-7s fragged for Air to Air. (Especially after watching A7 guys go through the Hornet Transition syllabus! During work-ups, one of my buddies got shot down by a B-52!)
I’d also argue that in USN, F and A used to be very very different. (“Fighter guys make movies, attack guys make history”) Call an attack guy a “fighter pilot” and you’d get swung at.
USAF calls anything under 100K lbs that has jet engines a fighter and thems that fly them call themselves fighter pilots. So in that respect you are correct, sir.
Nose
Nose-
Maybe (and that’s a reach) Corsairs (A-7) did FAD around the ship- never MIGCAP. Mainly self-defense (they should have mounted them aft firing. Just kidding)
What Flit and most apologists don’t understand is the USN stovepipe re the historic VF and VA community difference based on core mission at sea; only recently breached with the multi-purpose Hornet circa late 80’s-1990’s, which for the USN is sorta unnatural. Also, his comparing USAF similarities with Vietnam era Navy fighter and attack aircraft plays down the differences even more..and therefore lending that foggy credibility feeling to those who just don’t know..Typical obsfuscation for lack of a more precise word.
As you are well aware, these are just the details though. In order to give “his man and movement” cover, Flit is taking the pot off the hotburner and deflecting the real core of the issue like I said above-
“Jay’s attitude, which is “fleet average” for those Dem lefties. ”
b2
I’m with Kris. He owes a far bigger apology than to just McCain.
Rockefeller…May he rot.
I stand corrected on a few details. But this only underscores how easily a Peace Corps volunteer, or most anyone might misspeak when discussing 1960’s air warfare.
Regardless, it seems B2 has keenly sniffed out my “pot off the hotburner,” diversionary tactic.
And next time, I will try to “stick to what I know.”
Yeah, but Flit – even you wouldn’t trash someone based on facts you made up in your brain! You are smart enough to know that you’d get smote for it. He didn’t “misspeak” any more than Hillary did on the Kosovo sniper vacation. He made it up and then hurled it. Where I come from, we call that lying.
The ironic part is that Rockyfeller is probably more qualified to talk about McCain and his military role than he is to talk about poor (fiscally) Vietnamese (or poor anyone, for that matter!)
filterman, Looks like you found out most forcefully that its best not to tangle a**s-holes over the particulars of those gut busting, man mauling , flying machine thingies with this besotted gaggle of Air- Goobers…a valuable lession learned eh?
…additionally also let me commend and encourage you to fulfill your promise to next time ” stick to what I know” …acknowledging that a problem exists is the first step towards eradicating it . Best
Flit,
Snake has shamed me by calling me a “goober”, plus I’m scared he’ll send me one of dem supeenies on your behalf, the old ambulance chaser.
I was uneccesarily hard on ya by lumping ya in with Jay’s defenders. I apologize. You did say Jay’s remarks were “reprehensible”. I simply saw red and fired at the messenger when you went further to mitigate and well..you hopefully know.
Now I gotta figure out what besotted means..it don’t sound good.
b2
Appreciate the thought, SnakeE.
Although a few of my details may have been slightly suspect, my (sidetracking) message was mostly legit, no?
And thanks for the unsolicited advice, but I believe I can hold my own with this sometimes august, and sometimes not, motley and urbane crowd…. Even if I’m the odd-man-out, ‘lefty’. Also I suppose if everyone here stuck solely to what they truly and thoroughly know, rather than merely what they think they know, there might be at least 50% less comments . . . you think?
[PS. I'm still working on throttling back any excessive, 'gas-bagocity', just for you, SnakeE.]
The senator insults McCain and all military aviators with his implication. Incredible that we continue to elect such men to high office.
I’m a bit late to the party here.
In the Air Wing on Midway the F-4s were used as flak suppressors a couple of times. Then one came back with a big hole in it and CAG said, “No more. Too expensive to do that crap.” (They were a really expensive airplane for the times.) So they were always CAP after that. The F-8s were used for flak suppression and the Photo Det flew F-8s as well.
The A-4s and A-1s did all the dive bombing. They did have Bull Pups, a wire line guided bomb, which the A-4s tried to drop on a few occasions. They always went ballistic, so they kind of gave up on them.
The A-1s were also used for RESCAP and that is how one of the MIG kills came about. It was fortunate that VA-25’s XO, later CO, Harry Entslinger, was a Korean vet. On the first RESCAP mission a division was sent up to loiter on station near the picket destroyer. They were flying a loose division formation as they orbited in their assigned area. Harry found out about it and he called an all pilots meeting, post haste. He explained to everybody that when loitering on station like that you needed to fly sections on each side of the loiter circle. The reason was each section was then in position to turn into any attacker. It’s an old tactic from WWII called the Thach Weave. Fighter jocks knew this stuff, but SPAD drivers seldom thought about, “What if a MIG attacks me?” That APM paid off.
Anyhoo, a coupla days later the two VA-25 sections are using the tactic, when, the DD calls ‘em up and says, “We got bogies closing on your position!” The A-1 drivers armed their 20MMs and put their heads on swivels.
Sure enough two MIGs were making a beeline for those tempting looking 150 knot targets. The MIGs picked one section and went for them. The other section turned across the orbit and had a perfect deflection shot at the attacking MIGs. The A-1 section leader was Clint Johnson. He said all he saw was a MIG filling his wind screen as he blasted away. Then he saw MIG pieces flying around. (4 20 MMs can be pretty devastatingwhen on target.) The other MIG didn’t like what he saw and took off. Score one MIG for the SPADs with an assist from the Thach Weave.
Hope that helps.
filterman, I think/hope that we were just having a little fun here at the end of the thread. My only point, hyperbole, sarcasm and wise-assery notwithstanding, was to call you on attempting to hold forth on a subject that most of these big lugs know intimately from first hand experience ( see Jimmy Js comment # 25 above ) …
Additionally, I’ve always thought that unsolicited (especially over the top) advice, is like an oral contract… not worth the paper its written on…but then again to paraphrase old Barry G… neither is hyperbole, sarcasm or wise-assery, when use in an attempt to prevoke a comment ( see B2s shameless groveling # 22 above) or make a point, a vice. Best
SnakeEater – Agreed…and fun indeed.
Also some especially great stuff from Jimmy J! Tnx.