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Shorter Sadly, No!

By lex, on June 23rd, 2008

Don’t bother me with your stupid facts.

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June 23rd, 2008 | Tags: | Category: Politics and Culture

28 comments to Shorter Sadly, No!

  • XBradTC
    June 23, 2008 at 7:19 pm

    LAHLAHLAHLAHALHLALHALHJALHA. I’m not listening to you!

    H/T- Beverly Hills Cop.

  • Simba B
    June 23, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    Oooh, you’re a creative one, you are.

  • Skippy-san
    June 23, 2008 at 7:21 pm

    I have a friend who worked in the SECDEF’s office during the run up to OIF. He had a lot of interaction with Feith-and his opinion of the man is not fit for tender ears.

    Seems to me there is a lot of ” See it turned out Ok-so it must have been the right thing to do”.
    Just because you can do something does not mean you should-sometimes you have to weigh the long term costs. Regardless of how successful it is now-the end result is that the US has to pay a big bill for a dimishing return. Similar to buying an expensive car-it cost a lot and you keep on paying and paying over the years. When there were alternative forms of transportation available. An expensive luxury.

    Not every one who opposes the war is a left wing looney. There are some very reasoned people who concede that the surge may be working but all that proves is that the US can make lemonade out of stale lemons. Eitehr way Feith still failed in his primary job which was to discern the level of effort required and resource it correctly.

  • Simba B
    June 23, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    Comment moderation, eh?

  • XBradTC
    June 23, 2008 at 7:40 pm

    Skippy, I can understand your position. And I can disagree, without, I hope, being disagreeable. You’ve a fine mind and great insight. I do give weight to your thoughts on the matter.
    Sadly, tho, many people that share your view did not reach it through reason, and have repeatedly twisted or lied about what Rice said. I get tired of the venom and hate slung about. It lowers the discourse and makes it that much tougher to address serious topics.
    Plus, I hate hippies.

  • Nose
    June 23, 2008 at 7:54 pm

    Skippy,

    You’re just an F-in liar! “I have a friend…”

    You expect us to believe that crap?!?

    Nose

  • Zane
    June 24, 2008 at 1:21 am

    Nose, I see you took my advice and stuck to the Col Kurtz gravatar. For all of us, let me say Thank You!

    Feith was right about one thing, the limits of our intelligence. Well, at least Rice’s intelligence.

  • Brad
    June 24, 2008 at 5:31 am

    Pretty weak “shorter,” dude. Didn’t really attempt to parody anything I actually said. No real effort to parse contradictory logic. You didn’t even through in a smarmy parable about ancient Mayan death gods.

    And all this time I’d heard that right-wingers apparently had better senses of humour…

  • gyges
    June 24, 2008 at 6:23 am

    This mushroom cloud comment? You’re serious? Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.

    This has little to do with the Iraq war as an issue.
    All this does is point out that the left is deathly afraid Condoleezza will show up and bite them as the Rep. VP candidate so they want to get their licks in early.

    Admit it – that’s the last thing they need is a very, very viable black face on the Rep. ticket, thus eviscerating what is arguably BO’s only ‘qualification’ for higher office.

  • Drew C.
    June 24, 2008 at 8:50 am

    I’ve come to two conclusions:
    1. Feith is a nerd. I mean that in the perjorative sense, not as it is known now as something of a term of endearment in some circles.
    2. Douglas Feith is actually good for the environment. Seriously. He seems to be quite adept at rendering atmosphere into carbon dioxide, which plants need as a part of photosynthesis. I think I might get a sticker made. DOUGLAS FEITH – FRIEND TO PLANT LIFE.

    Perhaps we ought to send the man on an extended speaking engagement in South America to help restore the rain forests.

    On second thought, isn’t there some rule or law somewhere about the irresponsible export of hazardous waste?

  • Skippy-san
    June 24, 2008 at 9:24 am

    Nose ,

    Its true. He may have even hammered you on a Fitrep or two……. :-)

  • craig mclaughlin
    June 24, 2008 at 10:17 am

    Drew C.,

    FYI Mr. Feith is guess posting at the corner today. In case you want to share your conclusions with him.

    Best,
    craig

  • Zane
    June 24, 2008 at 11:13 am

    Back during the first oil crises, Feith was one of the rare voices of wisdom who saw the oil weapon for what it was, a source of now trillions of dollars in transfers from the West to our enemies. But somewhere along the line he lost the bubble. Too many years inside the beltway, I reckon. It can ruin anyone.

  • Drew C.
    June 24, 2008 at 11:29 am

    Craig,

    Unfortunately for me, there is no thingy to leave comments that I might exploit to call Feith a nerd to his e-face.

    I suppose I ought to be more serious. Let’s say that we have an inexperienced pilot go out to a rental facility and check out a plane. (This is assuming that they have met the requirements to do so from that facility.) They’ve got something on the order of 100 hours in model, and this corresponds (in this case) to their total amount of flight time.

    Said individual then departs on an unfiled flight into mountainous terrain. Said individual decides to give their passenger a better view of the dramatic canyons, and flies lower.

    It might bear mentioning at this point that the pilot in command has not familiarized themselves with the local terrain. In other words, we figured a nice flight would be great and the charts can get stuffed in the back somewhere.

    Now in this scenario there are two possible outcomes:
    1. Plane, pilot, and passenger are going to have one heck of a time sightseeing and will return a few hours later with some exciting memories and empty fuel tanks.
    2. Pilot will fly plane into box canyon, climb too late, turn too shallow, and plow himself and the passenger into a mountain.

    Under outcome number one, everyone walks away happy and the pilot quotes Pee Wee Herman on the way across the tarmac: “I meant to do that!”

    Under outcome number two, the FAA says you’re a collossal twit for lacking situational awareness, being inexperienced, and two sets of parents get phone calls from the federal government.

    Much like Skippy-san (and Feith for that matter), I’ve some friends out there who were privvy to some meetings in late 2002 and early 2003. I doubt we know the same people (and I am most certainly not going to out them), but what I took away from them was effectively the same.

    Details, names, dates, may be different but the substance is exactly the same. I disagree so vehemently with Feith’s position primarily based on the fact that you cannot go back and whitewash your idiocy to make it appear as though you were the smartest guy in the room.

    The notion that we would not have known when Hussein had developed a weapon is the most patently ridiculous thing I have ever heard. This displays an almost heinous lack of knowledge on how nuclear weapons are put together, Hussein’s original program, his interactions with A.Q. Khan, and the general situation inside Iraq prior to the U.S. invasion.

    The fact is that there were elements inside the intelligence community who knew for a fact that Hussein did not have nuclear weapons and furthermore lacked the requisite resources necessary to produce one. I could have told you that in 2000-2001 after returning from a long cruise to the Northern Arabian Gulf in support of U.N. sanctions and U.S. Navy Maritime Interdiction Operations.

    I’m sorry, but a country that is so da–ed broke it smuggles dates out on boats a scant upgrade from an oversized outrigger canoe probably isn’t in a position to go and build nuclear weapons. Furthermore, if they’re so desperate to get oil out of the country they were spending 50% of their oil revenues to bribe the Iranian Coast Guard and pay their smugglers, where’s the rest of the money going?

    Again, if they’re so desperate to get oil out of the country that they weld the doors on their ships shut and cook the crews alive when the motors explode because they’re overloaded and trying to outrun the U.S. Navy, we’re not talking about a country running the air conditioning 24-7 because that’s effectively what you’d need to do to run a productive weapons design effort.

    It wasn’t going into sending Iraqi physicists to train with A.Q. Khan. It wasn’t going to bring Russians out of Arzamas-16 or Chelyabinsk-70 to produce for them. (Even the Russians aren’t that stupid as to allow their own guys out.) NIE’s, reports to Congress, and others all support the fact that again, there wasn’t anything there. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

    So what then?

    To answer my own question, the vast majority of the money was going to Hussein’s “Golden Parachute” (he knew his days were numbered) and to the internal security apparatus necessary to keep the citizens in check.

    My uncle (50′s-60′s vintage machinist’s mate, MM2/c), told me once that “if you’re going to half-a– a job then don’t even start.” He also told me “don’t bullsh– when you’ve screwed up, nobody likes it and everyone knows. Be a man and fess up.”

    I’d buy nine copies of Feith’s book (especially given where the profits are going) if it was an analysis of the mistakes that were made and how not to make them again.

    My points here are:
    1. Feith is a nerd.
    2. If you’re going to make mistakes, that’s fine, just don’t trip over a curb and tell everyone you wanted to look at the pavement real close.
    3. Iraq is getting better only because of the skill, brains, and luck of those who replaced the people who were in charge initially.
    4. RTC San Diego Recruit Code: “I will not lie, cheat, or steal, nor tolerate those among us who do.”
    5. Mistakes were made. This is common knowledge. Let’s concentrate on not letting that happen again and turn our attention to making stable democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan something our children will take for granted.

  • craig mclaughlin
    June 24, 2008 at 11:43 am

    Drew, Skip, Zane;

    dfeith215@gmail.com

    Best,
    craig

  • craig mclaughlin
    June 24, 2008 at 12:02 pm

    Drew C
    .
    I hold no brief for Mr. Feith. I don’t know the man, and anecdotal evidence to one side, I’ll not judge him.

    Except to say that whenever I’ve encountered his writings, it has generally been superior to his adversaries.

    He’s had the better of the argument.

    But he might be wrong for all the reasons you say.

    Like I said, I don’t know and don’t really care. But since you obviously do know so very much and care so very much, take it up with him.

    dfeith215@gmail.com

    Best,
    craig

  • Justthisguy
    June 24, 2008 at 12:16 pm

    I think Mr. Feith is a Neo-Jacobin (the more accurate name for the bunch who style themselves as Neo-Conservatives), and I don’t care, at least not in a good way, for Neo-Jacobins, or for Mr. Feith.

    I’ll not say anything about bad feith, because that would just be, uh, yielding to the temptation to make a stupid joke on the intartubez.

  • Curtis
    June 24, 2008 at 1:10 pm

    I just don’t get guys that blame Feith or Bush or Rumsfeld. Each of these men got their facts about WMD from George Tenet who got them in his role as DCI and would be presumed to be honest about sharing that information with the NCA. So how does he not draw ire in spite of his report to Bush that finding WMD in Iraq is a slam dunk?

    Colin Powell took that same information and laid it in front of the UN and the nation. Is he a lying bastar# too?

    I just read Feith’s book during lunch and I accept the points he made. Bush and the NCA were ill-served by Powell and his DOS subordinates such as Armitage who all stood around at NSC meetings and Presidential briefings and nodded their heads and then slyly disappeared to their offices to gum up the works and not do their jobs and not carry out detailed planning for after major combat ops ended.

  • Snake Eater
    June 24, 2008 at 1:16 pm

    Hey JTG, Many thanks old sport…at the end of a brain busting day here in paradise your ever so welcome slightly off center comment # 17 above brought a much needed smile to this old dogs face. I too can’t seem to muster the knickers in a bunch rage of a Drew C. on this Feith matter. It’s just such an old and tired issue …might be an age thing…maybe this issue is better left to a full of piss and vinegar, certifiably smart ( just ask him) youngster with an excess of time on his hands. Best

  • Fast Nav
    June 24, 2008 at 3:02 pm

    All I can say about Mr. Feith is that he certainly received a “warm” welcome at the staff college. Especially when he told a room full of majors with combat experience that when officers try to understand the statements of their civilian superiors, and what made those superiors come to those conclusions, the officer should just stop because they’re invariable going to be wrong and trying to think “above their pay grade.”

  • Jim C
    June 24, 2008 at 6:23 pm

    Curtis,

    Couldn’t have said it better myself.

    Jim C

  • Curtis
    June 24, 2008 at 8:11 pm

    Fast Nav,

    Just looked over your site. Good job. I’ve been doing this full spectrum for the last 26 years, son of an army general. Back when I was a LT and CHENG I thought I could do a much better job of running DoD than those poseurs.

    With experience comes, for want of a better word, experience. I don’t and won’t patronize but take a tour as an aide if it’s not too late. Take a tour at OPNAV or a fleet staff. It will open your eyes to realms you never ever thought off and not all of them are poisonous, most are just JPME and ADJPME that one needs to go forward in a military/naval career.

    regards,
    Curtis

  • MaxDamage
    June 24, 2008 at 11:16 pm

    As an aside, purely to define the debate, there’s two points to consider here.

    First, a WMD is still anything in the NBC triad of Nuclear, Biological and Chemical realms. We know Saddam had WMD’s because he used them in his war with Iran. I seem to recall some IED’s made of chemical shells being discovered, mustard gas or some such. While not exactly a MIRV like the Soviet SS-NX-30, it fits the definition.

    Second, and more important, is that building a nuke is a far different process than building thousands of them. Take a look at the Manhatten Project. They came up with two bombs, of different types, over four years. Production was carried out in the USA, Canada, and the UK going from idea to weapons in 4 years. This during a full-fledged war with the rationing of material that entails.

    Uranium doesn’t take a hundred centrifuges to enrich, it takes a few at one site and a few at another. Detonators don’t require the latest in nano-second timing circuits when we did it in 1945 with milli-second copper cabling. Fact is, Saddam didn’t have to produce an ICBM, he merely had to re-create technology from 60 years ago and hide it in a country the size of California to have a nuclear threat.

    So please, let’s do us all a favor and recognize that the nuke part was/is possible and may not be detected via external information we can gather easily. The technology is known, it’s out there. That genie is not going back into the bottle. If North Korea can build a nuke, anybody can with the will and effort.

    So, to me, this is an intelligence problem. The spooks can’t say for certain it’s not happening, thus one has to assume it is happening.

    We were caught flat-footed when the Soviets tested their own nuke.

    Guven the stakes, erring on the side of caution would seem to be an appealing position for a politician.

    – Max

  • Zane
    June 25, 2008 at 2:48 am

    Craig, I’ve got no beef with Feith’s role in taking out Saddam, but rather with the follow-on “make Iraq a light unto the Muslim world” notion. I’ve admitted I was a believer in the notion at first, but then I learned something about that part of the world. However, I’d really like to get copies of some of Feith’s old stuff that isn’t available online, so maybe that email will come in useful.

    Curtis, thanks for the “quick read.” Powell skated away spotless despite a disastrous performance as SECSTATE — remember, it was Powell who insisted we had to have WMD as the main justification for invading Iraq. And Powell who so misunderstood Turkey that he left the USA looking an abandoned bride at the altar while the 4thID made big cirlces in the Med. And Armitage? Well, look who McCain’s grooming for a cabinet spot!

    Feh!

  • Fast Nav
    June 25, 2008 at 4:15 am

    Craig –
    Thanks for the kind words. I’ll certainly look into it. Have to get through this school first!

    v/r
    FN

  • Zane
    June 25, 2008 at 10:03 am

    Nose, since when were you a blonde?

  • FbL
    June 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

    Heh. In the spirit of Nose’s avatar…

  • Chap
    June 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

    Curtis: Good advice.
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