Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
Well, at least this way you still have one hand free to open the door!
Oh, that’s not the only habit you’ll take another 20 years to break; trust me. Welcome to the non-haze-gray world, Lex.
Welcome to our world, Captain. No salutes required; you’re adjusting already.
Your posts about your re-immersion in civilian life are just delightful — and a real eye-opener to those of us who never entered the military.
“So, I found myself in mufti…”
Horrible ain’t it? It won’t get better.
[Hello, Bookie! Nice to have you aboard!]
Yeah, Lex, I know what you mean. I entered the home tonight with my empty lunch bag, camera case containing large aperture zoom optics, macro lens, flash, APU, and flash bracket; and the full laptop setup with two bricks, mouse, etc. In one hand.
‘Cause nobody was ’round to open the doors for me. That’s civilian life.
Me, I get out of my car and instantly recall that I’m not wearing my cover which, you know.
I’m weaning myself off it.
It’s amusing, the habits we pick up. I’ve found myself doing the exact same thing, but for a slightly different reason — some of my co-workers are deaf, so I need to keep a hand free to communicate.
– Max
Like Curtis, I still feel wierd going outside without a cover after 19 years as a civilian. I avoid this feeling by always wearing a ballcap.
Also, my arm still twitches when I walk by the flagpole out front.
I still take my hat on and off going indoors and out, just out of habit. Funny though that the salute thing never got me after getting out.
Okay, for us unenlightened but admiring folks:
1) A ‘cover’ is a hat of some sort?
2) Is a uniform hat kept on indoors, or is there some exact protocol determining when it is removed?
3) Only those in uniform have the honor of saluting the flag. Is it improper for retired military to salute if they are not in uniform?
4) Are those in uniform required to salute the flag when encountering one in display?
Best regards, P-dub.
1. Yes
2. Generally, you remove your cover indoors, and wear it outdoors.
3. Generally, placing your right hand over your heart when a salute would be appropriate. I have seen former military salute in civilian clothes, but the hand over heart is proper.
4. When a service member is not in formation, then they would salute the flag. Generally when within 6-30 paces, or when the flag is passing such as at a parade or when the colors are presented.
I believe the “civilian” world could learn much about actual civility from the traditions of our military.
Except for the use of PowerPoint. I believe the military has the private sector well and truly beat.
Brad,
As for #3 – I think that has changed. I think the following was signed into law this past May:
SEC. 594. CONDUCT BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES AND VETERANS OUT OF UNIFORM DURING HOISTING, LOWERING, OR PASSING OF UNITED STATES FLAG.
Section 9 of title 4, United States Code, is amended by striking “all persons present” and all that follows through the end of the section and inserting the following: “all persons present in uniform should render the military salute. Members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute. All other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, or if applicable, remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Citizens of other countries present should stand at attention. All such conduct toward the flag in a moving column should be rendered at the moment the flag passes.”
I haven’t seen anyone do this yet.
Peter,
Just to clarify XBrad’s #4, you don’t salute a flag that is “merely” on display (i.e. flying outside of a building or on a stand in the lobby) but you do salute, when not in formation, when the flag passes you or when it is being hoisted or reitred. If you are in formation, the formation leader salutes for you.
Peter/BradTC
Believe there is a recent Public Law which authorizes vets to salute the flag at their discression. I think it’s a neat perk.
Nose:
We must have hit the submit button at the same time. As usual, you young bucks are so much better at “Googling” to get more info than us old goats. Regards, Boss.
It has been almost 10 years but I still look for my cover before leaving my office, and I always carry my briefcase in my left hand. I spend most of my time in the Pentagon, and it is SO hard to resist saluting the GOFOs I pass coming out of the Metro.
Just an observation from a civilian:
I was always taught (maybe from my Boy Scout years…) that even as a civilian you DO NOT wear a cover indoors and you removed your cover anytime you held your hand over your heart for the flag or National Anthem.
Can’t tell you how It pisses me off at a ball game when people don’t remove their hats during the anthem or, worse yet, just keep talking.
Respect for this country and it’s institutions and traditions long lost in this age of public school socialist creep I suspect.
Veterans saluting the flag rather than crossing their hearts. Another burning issue that just had to be resolved by a federal law. We’ll make enforcing this law a duty of DHS, requiring a new division of DHS be funded and personed. Be prepared to produce your DD-214 at the ballpark. When, oh, when will the courts will step in to remedy this travesty of justice? IFLSTH or whatever it is that Snakey types.
The company I work for is owned by a retired 0-5. We have several retired 0-6s’ with command pins. I won’t try counting the other retired officers, warrants, and chiefs here. EVERYONE that is not under cover when Colors comes out, is silent, facing the flag, hand over heart, and stays there till Secure is called. I’ve been doing it for damn near 30 years, so for me it’s habit.
What ticks me is the sloppy way sailors, khaki and otherwise, salute the colors going on and off the ship. THAT sucks.
After I punched out in ’05, it took a few weeks to stop reaching for my cover when I left the Lockheed Martin building at 1700. As a retirement gift to myself, I bought an ’06 Infiniti Coupe in a color that resembles haze gray. I’m letting go. Slowly.
Were the “mufti” Dockers khaki?
It’s been at least 32 years since I’ve worn the uniform and that was as a reservist while in law school and like many above I still remove my hat ( a/k/a cover ) without thinking about it when going indoors…the only exception to the no cover protocol, as I recall, was when you were wearing a sidearm as an OD, SOG, or payroll officer. It could cost you a round of drinks if you walked into the Officers/NCO club …covered. Best
PS, Zane, It’s “ICSFTH” you disrespectful welp.
..now just waiting for Lex to figger out that he can grow that gray beard that he’s entitled to…
Lex and friends … here’s a blast from the past which shows that you guys are the guardians of courtesy which used to be common in civilian life, but alas is no more. Back in the day [the 1930s and 40s and 50s] almost all men [gentlemen] used to wear hats out of doors — fedoras, cowboy hats, straw boaters, etc. and there was a definite protocol about them. If you encountered a lady friend, you tipped your hat, or removed it while you were exchanging pleasantries, then replaced it. When you entered a public building you removed it, and held it until you could place it on a hook or a table. This definitely held true for restaurants.
Older theaters had a wire circle under the seats into which you could slide the brim of your hat so you wouldn’t have to hold it in your lap and during the performance. When you entered a private home you removed it, until you prepared to leave. No keeping it on your head while you were in a restaurant — considered very rude. Baseball caps were a sports thingy, not “real” hats.
Sometimes I long for those days, when the hat protocol held so many valuable subtle social messages. I particularly miss it when some guy in a cowboy hat is sitting in front of me during a movie or a show and I’m terribly tempted to dump my popcorn on him.
Anyway, thanks to you all who have been trained properly in hat protocol. May you live long and prosper.
Marianne
Marianne, I can’t go back that far but even I know hats come off (or at least are suppose to) indoors. To leave one on is rude. And quite frankly, it looks and feels funny to me. Problem is I have given up trying to enforce that one with my kids and now just insist on a ‘no hat at the table’ rule.
Now if only I could convince my
betterother half to put his shirt on at the table …I still feel very odd if I’m outdoors without a hat… of course, I also tend to wear them indoors too, but that’s mainly because civilian cargo pockets and baseball caps don’t mix as well as a soft-cap/beret and BDU/ACU cargo pockets.
Yeah, c’mon, Lex – get that grey beard thang going!
It’ll add years to your look. I know.
Cover – indoors or out… in the Army at least, the only time you go covered indoors is if you are armed, such as the old Pay Guards, prisoner escorts, MPs, etc.
You should be covered if you’re kicking in the door, too. ;^ )
Around here at Leavenworth, we auld pharts stop in the parking lot at 5PM when ‘Retreat’ sounds, followed by ‘To the Colors’ as the flag is lowered.
And a significant number of the youngsters loll around in the doorways so they don’t have to do it. It’s always been true, but it does chap my butt, I admit.
Whoa, the things I didn’t think about when leaving the military. It explains an awful lot… some of the things I’ve seen the men do that have just gotten out. I’d not thought of why some of them carried everything with one hand and now the briefcase in the left… interesting.
I just spent the evening as a chaperone for a Boy Scout camp. In the Mess Hall there is a BIG sign reminding the boys to remove their caps when inside. I was happy to see it…
When I walk to work, I’m in my work grubbies on the Iraqi side of the base, and I invoke Veteran’s Privilege when the colors go up on the US side of the wire — twenty feet away.
The guys raising the colors get a bit straighter when they see me do it and my Iraqi students walk a little taller when they pass their own flag.
And the hat gets tipped to the Deployed Damsels who know me — ever seen an O-6 bust out in schoolgirl giggles?
[...] Courtesy and Leadership There’s a discussion over at Lex’s place about transitioning to civilian life, and some of the habits that carry over, such as looking for [...]
I retired (twice) in ’91 and still do the cover/uncover thing if I’m not careful.
Headgear stayed on indoors if under arms, which I haven’t been lately. Or if you were in a place troops drilled, like an armory.
Returned to civilian life in 1990 after four years in the country club service (USAF). A few months on, I sat near the door of a large conference room filled with co-workers. When the boss strode through the door, everything in me reflexively tried to snap to and bark ‘room ten-hut’. I nearly bit my tongue off.
Never been in service, but wearing a hat indoors just never seemed right.
I guess being raised by my grandmother made some impression; her being so definite about things like that.
Todd, I would have thought your first Air Force instinct would have been to say “Hey Bob!”
The sad part, my friend, is that not only do you not get saluted anymore, but now you’re the FNG, often to a bunch of kids just out of school.
The good part is that you have a ton of priceless memories that will last a lifetime.
Semper Fi!
Wore a ballcap to an appt. w/ the Doc last week, and caught myself taking it off going through the door (out 15 yr. and still getting used to that word).
I laugh at myself sometimes at the one hand empty thing, but I’m guessing I like having one free in case I need it. How many of you still walk around with your fingers curled, and check your alignment in the mirror?
Don’t laugh, Mar6, you know what I’m talking about. :^)
Lex, it’s the same thing for cops (or former cops).
You never carry anything in your gun-hand.
I got over the hat/cover thing pretty quickly after I retired…
“the FNG, often to a bunch of kids just out of school.” ..hehe…so true. I love the quizzical looks when I refer to new-hires/interns as “turtles” or FNGs. It could be worse – I don’t refer to them as “cherries”…that might be pushin it.
Funny though that the salute thing never got me after getting out.
I had fun with a misfired salute once, though the saluter was still in.
The car directly ahead at the guard gate contained a field-grade officer who said something as he pulled away, causing the guard to turn his head while his hand was already in the preparatory for salute/no-salute–I wasn’t yet close enough for him to check for a rank on my vehicle.
Self-preservation took over as I pulled up. He turned back to me and snapped to with a perfect salute before going limp and blushing when his eyes focused on my windshield.
I have to say I rather enjoyed the experience…
I used to always feel bad going into NAS Whidbey in my dads car. The sailor at the gate would pop off a perfect highball on seeing the blue sticker, only to see a snotnosed teen driving the car.
My wife still makes sure I remove my ball cap inside. Including fast food joints.
Marine6, As I recall, Lex is working for a small company whose staff is primarily ex- navy…a Navy half- way house if you will… where they all speak the same patois and acknowledge each other with the secret hand shake… so it can’t be all that stressful… but as we all know, by definition he’s still a bottom feeding FNG… so Lex , new civilian sport… you have my sympathies… rest assured that this phase shall soon pass. Best
I was never in the military, but I’ve been a Scouter (an adult leader in the Boy Scouts of America) for the last 16 years. I’ve been teaching flag and uniform etiquette and rules for all that time to Scouts from ages 6 to 18.
When the flag is presented at a meeting or parade you stand up and salute. If in uniform, you give the BSA salute. If not in uniform or not a member of the BSA, you put your hand over your heart. The old rule was from 7 steps before the flag gets to you until 7 steps after it goes by.
When we have a meeting such as a Court of Honor, when the boys are getting their awards and thus a number of non-BSA registered parents are present, I tell the Scout running the ceremony to announce “Please stand for the presentation of the colors”. I also tell him “Then wait until everyone actually stands up before you tell the color guard ‘Color guard, advance’, and if someone doesn’t stand up look at them and wait until they do.”
Because when that hasn’t been done, some of them actually just sit there like dummies while the flag goes by and when we say the Pledge of Allegiance.
The Scouts are also told that if they are in uniform at a BSA function they are permitted to wear their hats indoors unless the local custom (e.g., if they are in a church) is otherwise. If they are not in uniform and are wearing a non-BSA hat, you take it off indoors. Of course, their parents hardly set a good example in such cases, so I’m swimming upstream on that one.
Me, I almost always keep one hand free when I’m carrying something in case I have to open a door or in case I stumble. When we go hiking, I tell the kids that anything they have to carry goes in a pack or on a carabiner on their belt; only a Tenderfoot has their hands full on the trail.
Off on a somewhat tangential note, my first shearing occurred on this exact day, Thursday, June 26th…1974 at MCRD, San Diego. No sunglasses though… Lord, where has the time gone?
We all thought we were pretty cool razzing the other service recruits for being wimps, whiners, and such. Then we met the ‘Man’. Life changed…just a little.
Just an FYI – the “law” referenced early in the thread is actually a bill (H.R. 3380 and S. 1877) that has yet to be sent to the President for signature.
http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:s.01877:
Hate to be pedantic but the difference *is* important.
Just wondering — are you still using” V/r”,” /R” netiquette in e-mails?
V/r-
-SJBill