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Schism

By lex, on June 29th, 2008

A little light reading of a Sunday morn:

The Anglican Church faces what is in effect a schism this weekend after the declaration last night of conservative evangelicals to create a

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June 29th, 2008 | Category: Unfiled

14 comments to Schism

  • Marianne Matthews
    June 29, 2008 at 10:31 am

    “Things fall apart; the center cannot hold” … and, as our longest running Christian religion has found out, regular housecleaning is necessary.

    Marianne

  • geo6
    June 29, 2008 at 11:44 am

    Put on your water wings and swim the Tiber, Lex. Even though there are things that bug you about what lays on the far bank, just remember that Judas was one of the Twelve and Peter denied him three times but retained the Keys. Schisms and heresies come and go but that Office is still around for almost two millenia, not to mention it is consistent in its deposit of Faith.

  • steveH
    June 29, 2008 at 2:10 pm

    A participant in the Jerusalem blogged the conference
    here.

    To me, looking from the outside in, it appears to be more positive than not.

  • Bill C
    June 29, 2008 at 4:53 pm

    Lex,
    Come on over and join the papists, then you’ll really have something to blog about.

  • Gregory Kong
    June 29, 2008 at 6:46 pm

    From an evangelical POV, however, the authority and power the Apostles held rested with them and them only. The keys to the Kingdom remain in their hands, in the form of the Bible.

    Which is not to say that the RCs aren’t looking better and better as the days go by, of course. My fellow Anglicans must be as angry and frustrated by this situation as I am.

  • geo6
    June 30, 2008 at 3:20 am

    GK, Recommend you read Clement, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr and the other Patristic Fathers since you make that claim. The Complete King James Bible didn’t just fall from the skies upon the Ascention or after the deaths of the Twelve. With respect.

  • RonF
    June 30, 2008 at 6:25 am

    I’m Sr. Warden of a congregation in the Diocese of Chicago. We are split on these issues, so we pretty much concentrate on what we can agree on and leave the issues of sexuality alone.

    Very few people in my congregation know much about Dromadine, Windsor, Lambeth, or even have any sense of belonging to the Anglican Communion overall. They just want to concentrate on what we’re doing locally. We’ll see how long that will last.

  • Michelle
    June 30, 2008 at 7:30 am

    So, I’m confused, Lex.

    I know I’ve repeatedly heard you make comments to the effect that true love is hard to find and we shouldn’t deny it to anybody, no matter how they find it. Something like that, anyway.

    So just out of curiousity, do you have a problem with homosexuality or not?

  • lex
    June 30, 2008 at 2:48 pm

    Michelle, you’re no more confused than I am, and my deep ambivalence was meant to be reflected in both citations from Romans.

    Roughly, my feelings on the matter is that the more love there is in the world the better off we all will be, and everyone should be allowed to admire beauty where they find it. That’s personal of course, and as Paul reminds me, I’m not the judge.

  • Drew C.
    June 30, 2008 at 3:27 pm

    As usual, nobody asked me, but…

    Both of my parents are Episcopalians, and are dealing with this event well enough. They’re sort of horrified that there are people unwilling to understand exactly what Lex said above, but still are cognizant that it takes all types to run a railroad. I think their greatest fear would be the nuclear option of the church splitting completely in half, and they’re somewhat relieved to see that not happening.

    Lex,
    I asked my Mom the same question Michelle posed to you. Her answer was almost word for word the same. I know this doesn’t mean much, but it cements my opinion that you are a thoroughly reasonable sort of mammal and weep for the fact that I never had a chance to work for you.

  • Tom G.
    June 30, 2008 at 4:41 pm

    Love: to will another’s good for the other’s sake (Aquinas). The modern problem seems to be defining what “good” means. Hard for anything to mean anything when we move the goalposts. Can’t have a game without’em, but we surely exhaust ourselves pretending to.

  • Michelle
    June 30, 2008 at 5:43 pm

    Sorry, not to be obtuse, Lex, but that would translate into personally,okay … but spiritually, not so much?

  • Marianne Matthews
    June 30, 2008 at 6:37 pm

    Lex and others … as an Episcopalian I have been troubled by many of the same things you’re discussing. I’ve always felt that the best thing you can do in this world is to love the people who are worthy and who need it — and Lord knows, we all need it.

    But I think we’re conflating two things here which are not necessarily the same; loving, and the legal contract of marriage. I can’t quite see where some homosexuals feel they can’t love adequately without what is essentially a legal contract, made in front of witnesses. Surely that isn’t necessarily true. We’ve all known people in our lives who for one reason or another can’t contract a marriage. That doesn’t, or shouldn’t, limit their ability to love each other, does it? Surely they can love faithfully and long without a legal contract?

    Some years ago I read a book telling the true story about The Ladies of Llangollan, a pair of young women from the early 1800s in England who escaped from family-imposed restrictions and required marriages and began a relationship which lasted their whole lives, devotedly and faithfully. The English society of the day, after first rejecting them completely, began over the years to accept them as harmless eccentrics. [The English seem to admire eccentricity, don't they?].

    My point is, they couldn’t marry, but it didn’t decrease their devotion, precisely because the two things are related but not the same. Marriage is a contract which helps to facilitate love, but does not create it.

    I’ve known a number of gay persons of both sexes because of my former singing days. Some were adult enough to love and be faithful to one another and some were not. But contracting a legal marriage to each other wouldn’t have improved their ability to love faithfully. That’s a character issue, isn’t it?

    Marianne

  • Russ Sanders
    June 30, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    As an evangelical, it is love the person, hate the sin.
    Sin causes destruction and separation from God.
    It is like catching your young child trying to cross a busy street, how do you show your love?
    1. tell him you love him and let it go, or
    2. tell him that what he is doing is dangerous.

    God loves us and wants only good things for us. The things that He calls sin are things that will cause us grief. The bible does list homosexuality as a sin, so I would recommend staying away from it. I am not saying to stay away from people who are homosexual, but to realize that God says that it is a destructive act that leads to separation from Him. I hope that my local church is full of sinners of all sorts as we are commanded to lead sinners to the grace and mercy that is in Christ. What I cannot figure is why even bother attending church if you can pick and chose the parts that you believe. Christ only gave us two choices, either He is the Son of God, or He is a complete lunatic.

    I hope that the following verses might help. Notice Lex, that in Romans 2:1, the condemnation comes from doing the very things that you are judging others for.

    Luke 17:3 “Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

    From Romans 1:21 through Romans 2:8

    21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
    23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
    24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
    25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
    26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
    27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
    28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
    29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
    30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
    31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
    32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
    1 ¶ Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.
    2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.
    3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
    4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
    5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
    7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
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