You’ll fall for anything
The fever swamp rats are drinking their own bathwater again:
During the journalism conference event, I asked (Sy) Hersh specifically about this meeting and if he could elaborate on what occurred. Hersh explained that, during the meeting in Cheney’s office, an idea was considered to dress up Navy Seals (sic) as Iranians, put them on fake Iranian speedboats, and shoot at them. This idea, intended to provoke an Iran war, was ultimately rejected.
Yeah. That could so happen. The Vice President of the United States is so eager to go to war with Iran that he considered dressing up the most expensive operators in the SPECWAR inventory in IRGCN weeds only to shoot them up. It so happened because Sy Hersh said.
I really don’t know what’s more absurd. That Sy Hersh could make up yet another of his ridiculuous, unsourced and unsubstantiated claims, or that so many people minimally clever enough to earn the folding cash required to pay internet access bills could so eagerly believe him.
Ordinarily sane people don’t lose their minds all at once. It’s a slow, sequential process, a slippery slope. You start off believing that Dick Cheney was wrong on school vouchers, or tax cuts or what have you. It ends (hopefully) with you believing that the Vice President of the United States, or members of his retinue, advocated for murdering US servicemen in order to provide a causus belli for a war against Iran. Really believing it I mean. Not just pretending to. Because he’s so evil!!!1!eleven!
Geez.
Mr Hersh obviously has not been informed that the Iranian ‘PT boats’ are better known as ‘Boghammers’ for a reason. This might be due to the quality of his sources: if details are not correct, what else might be a problem?
Cheers
Notwithstanding your obvious animosity toward sly, Sy Hersch, what he purports is certainly not inconceivable, especially when our draft-dodging VP (“I had other priorities in the ’60s than military service” – all while I, fliterman was personally laying it all on the line!) Cheney is concerned.
A casus belli has long been sought by this Administration (and PNAC) in countries including and beyond Iraq.
On a similar although much smaller scale, I remember (years after the trumped-up Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, casus belli, a similar gambit in Vietnam called the “protective reaction strike” occurring often.
With the bombing halt of 1968, strike missions over North Vietnam were prohibited. But unarmed “reconnaissance” missions were still allowed.
So we therefore developed a “false tactic” that launched repeated, unarmed reconnaissance missions over North Vietnam. But the purpose of these missions was never for the purported and legitimate purpose of reconnaissance. Like Cheney’s sacrificial SEALs, they were only planned-bait to be fired upon, hopefully. They were solely to provoke and hopefully entice the North Vietnamese to fire upon our unarmed reconnaissance aircraft, so we could then ‘legitimately’ under then current rules of engagement, launch a ready, massive air strike on the North Vietnamese that would otherwise be forbidden.
Air Force General Lavelle finally took the fall for this enduring deception. But most knew the deception originated in the Executive Office of our nation.
Whether you agree with this type of subterfuge or not, is not the issue. That it is possible, given our history in like matters, and as now exposed by Hersch is believably real…. And it should not be so easily and summarily dismissed by the naïve or intransigent.
These folks are all in … Cheney Derangement Syndrome.
Ok, fliterman – I’ll take your bait.
While I don’t know the specifics of the “false tactics” that you cite, it doesn’t sound entirely implausible. However, recall that we *were* already at war with N.Vietnam at the time – therefore, this would seem to be a thinly disguised, yet still legitimate act. They were, by your own admission, *unarmed* reconnaissance planes, after all. Setting a trap and/or enticing the enemy to engage first is a legitimate “ruse de guerre.”
What Cheney is purported to have recommended (and who said that it was even his idea?) is nothing like that – it is akin to the German kick-off event of WWII; only instead of using Polish POWs as “aggressors” in September 1939 they decided to shoot up a few of their own Fallschirmjager to really get things going.
Could some young staffer have “brainstormed” a scenario like that involving the SEALs? Maybe as a joke, perhaps? Possibly, but the fact that it was (likely immediately) shot down (no pun intended) tells me that no one was looking to engage in a deception of that magnitude.
You say, ” That it is possible, given our history in like matters, and as now exposed by Hersch is believably real.” I beg to differ. Other than your illegitimate Vietnam example, please give me one (or more) example of when – in recent 20th/21st century history – we have used unjust means to engage in armed conflict. And no, you can’t use Iraq – the whole “No WMDs!!1!” argument is *so*overdone…
Nor should it be so easily and summarily embraced by the naïve or intransigent. So what’s your username over at democraticunderground.com?
I first heard this while inadvertently channel surfing the fever swamp of Herr Doberman’s show last night. That smirking, fleshy condescendingly florid face delivered that tantalyzing piece of propaganda from Sy…
What a crock.
C’mon Flit, same-old same-old….
Start out with a little B.D.S., stoked by a little Chicken-Hawk and covered up with a little Vietnam lore . Then mollify by taking the middle ground and offering “Whether you agree with this type of subterfuge or not, is not the issue. ” ho-Humm-zzz”
All predictable stuff. Just enough to create doubt in a weak mind…..Ain’t gonna work around here Flit. You’re more effective when you play the guilt card like your last posts re insincere apologies….
b2
The article is bad enough. Scroll through the comments at the bottom. They’re not drinking the kool-aid, they’re swimming in it.
An unshakable belief that the 9-11 attack was carried out by the government? That V.P. Cheney convinced tens of thousands of military and civilian government personnel to murder thousands of Americans as a pretext to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq?
Even if you believe that V.P. Cheney is completely and utterly an evil man, capable of thinking of such a thing, how do you get from there to believing that the military officers, NCOs, and enlisted men on active duty would consider anything that involved murdering Americans? Or that it could be covered up? That no one would have uncovered the plot, blown the whistle, posted it all on the web, gone to the airport that morning and begged everyone not to get on the planes? What sort of men do they think we are?
If I thought my government did this to it’s own citizens, I’d be reading the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, and considering this passage: “But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. ”
Voting to replace the President and a few top officials wouldn’t fix a system so corrupt that the entire leadership of the military was either involved before or after the fact in mass murder.
I’m thinkin’ all Navy SEALs, past and present, deserve a Congressional apology, reparations, and maybe a Pell Grant or two. And a big 60″ plasma screen HDTV. Each. And everyone gets a promotion. No! Wait! We’ll need to expand that. ALL Special Forces folks! Include them all! Who says Cheney was just focused on the SEALs. That guy knows no bounds, nor should we. And FLITIE thanks for enlightening us nuckle-draggers. You’re a real bringer of light to the topics. Bless you and thank you. No. Really. I have HOPE we can CHANGE. KOOMBAYAH dude.
Fliterman,
That anyone could think that V.P. Cheney would suggest such a thing, or that anyone in the administration or the military could or would even brainstorm such an idea reeks of 9-11 truther idiocy. Furthermore, do you think that these SEALs would willingly go to their death or that anyone in our military would willingly shoot up their fellow servicemen? Quite frankly, anyone who believes that such a thing is possible needs to have their head examined… that includes you.
Question for you; does your belief that V.P. Cheney could do such a thing have to do with your obvious resentment that he didn’t serve in Vietnam?
Jim C
A casus belli has long been sought by this Administration (and PNAC) in countries including and beyond Iraq.
Really? Cuz that kinda flies in the face of my observation, which is that we tend to not respond to acts of war from countries including and beyond Iraq.
Or was the first WTC bombing another nefarious Bush/Cheney scheme?
Or the USS Cole?
Or, and this one is interesting since it can actually be tracked back to a specific country, the 52 US diplomats held hostage for 444 days? Who was behind that, I wonder? Well, I already know the answer to that: it was our own fault. It always is, isn’t it?
Furthermore, there have been numerous opportunities to go ahead and light up some IRGC boats that have acted in an obnoxious manner. Why not just shoot them? If we were looking for any old excuse, why not take the one given on a golden platter? With a little spin, that will work just fine. It isn’t like the Iranians would have any eyewitnesses left.
Fliterman, please, get help.
Geez, Fliterman. I always knew you came at things from a generally left point of view, but I took you for a reasonable actor until now.
The concept of Cheney orchestrating a plot such as this is ridiculous.
However, as relates to casus belli, there is at least one Vietnam incident that casts doubt on our willingness to manipulate facts to our advantage. Jim Stockdale (commanding an F8 squadron aboard the USS Ticonderoga) was ordered to lead airstrikes against North Vietnam in August 1964 in reprisal for attacks that actually did not take place against the destroyers USS Turner Joy and USS Maddox. Information from ships logs maintained by Commodore Herrick later indicated that attacks did not occur on his vessels by PT Boats yet we launched attacks under this pretext.
So while it may be possible that, in the confusion of battle, mistakes are made, I see no evidence that we ever engaged in a large scale conspiracy.
Reminds me of the movie:”Wag the Dog”
Oh, fliterman is just helping me fan the flames. There isn’t the remotest reason for him to believe in yet another of Hersh’s serial verbal manufactories – although a one trick pony, desperate for a second act, the writer is ever so much more cautious in print – and yet he pretends to in order to excite our passions.
Well played, sir.
I served in the 1960′s (as a young lawyer in the Dan Quayle Brigade of the California National Guard keeping Riverside California from the dreaded ChiCom menace. “Mission Accomplished.” My company was put on alert one weekend to go “bayonet students” who were rioting at Isla Vista but we never got on the truck. I might add that units of the infantry brigade I served in have been called up and served in Iraq some 40 years on. ).
I also worked in a very conservative big law firm in San Diego that asked me to represent sons and employees of clients who, for one reason or another, didn’t want to get drafted–and didn’t want to go to Canada. So I’ve got some familiarity with what could, and could not, keep a young man from being drafted.
I hear this crapola about Cheney dodging the draft. I gather that Cheney had a medical condition which meant that he could not have passed the physical exam if he were drafted. Given that such is the case, Fliterman should put a sock in it.
As for animosity to Sy Hersh and Dolberdoofus–count me as “all in” on that idea.
I went to the links and read some of the comments. I would say that the ages of the people commenting was somewhere between 12 and 15. I about fell out of my chair when one guy quoted Mike Meyers.
As far as Hersh is concerned, did somebody drop him on his head when he was a baby?
I gather that Cheney had a medical condition which meant that he could not have passed the physical exam if he were drafted. Given that such is the case, Fliterman should put a sock in it.
Or at least mitigate the double standard by answering for one Howard Dean.
Given that we’re talking Sy Hersh, and that the word is given as “seals” and not “SEALs”, is it possible that they meant Naval markings on the vessels and not SEALs?
“A casus belli has long been sought…” We wouldn’t need to manufacture a casus belli with Iran. They have provided enough already. The boats mentioned by XBradTC, the bombs and other war material they have been shipping and using in Iraq to attack and kill our troops, the Iranian military personnel that have been captured in Iraq, etc.
If we wanted we could already be at war with Iran.
A more reasonable recap of “Protective Reaction”.
More in-depth story here.
Someone must have been talking about Poland & Germany in August/Sept ’39 and Sy Hersh put it through his BDS/CDS filter.
Damn. That was an interesting read Sid. Thanks.
fmr_grunt,
Yeah, all the stuff they’ve been shipping into Iraq, the IRGC we’ve caught there, and now reports that Iran is working with the Taliban in Afghanistan as well. Likme you said, we don’t need to manufacture a reason to go to war with them. They’ve provided reason enough already.
Jim C
Hmmm. An evil thought: what if someone did tell Hersh that story, but as a joke? You know, in a “left-handed wrench” kind of way.
I can just see someone chuckling to themselves, thinking “I can’t believe he fell for that. What a maroon!”
Mike Meyers,
I think Cheney dropped out of Yale and married Lynn soon after. As I remember it his defferment was because she was pregnant (personally having experienced fatherhood and military service..fatherhood is harder!) . Millions used that along with college deferments AND folks who became teachers and social workers….The times.
Not a lot of honor there but nothing atypical for the times as you can attest I’m sure. What people don’t understand today and what the Dims who use the ChickenHawk argument and all it’s twisted siblings, really don’t understand is that having served in the Guard or the reserve like you, Bush, and Qualye did in the 60′s is rather exceptional public service for that time in American history..Don’t ever mitigate it. 2-3 million vets went through ‘Nam, maybe more. 5-10 million or more were probably in the service then. That’s drop in the bucket compared to all the dam hippies and those dozens of millions who skipped out, bought out, opted out via Canada, went to college or became teachers!
b2
Sid – Thanks for the interesting links.
M. Meyers/b2 – FWIW, Cheney applied for and received five separate Vietnam draft deferments Link
Cheney applied for and received five separate Vietnam draft deferments
So Hersh’s story must be true. QED and all that.
fliterman
Not animosity, disdain. Had Mr Hersh accurate knowledge, he would have not used “PT boats”. In his defense, someone may have fed him a story; however he failed to do the appropriate research. Had he done so, “Boghammer” should have appeared in his article.
Cheers
fitler man, the real history is clear. If leaders strayed from the ROE, it was to save lives.
Doubt that precedent wouldn’t still hold.
Hersh’s “story” of intentionally sacrificing “Seals” is the stuff of a bad Steven Segal script.
Flit,
1 or 4, what’s the difference? Am I supposed to be outraged? You read my point above. I make no apologies for Cheney not having served- if you will remember, only a small number of that generation (mine & yours) did serve. Therefore, I consider your arguments specious and predictable.
Just what are you going to do when the Bush administration becomes history?
All of us have different expectations for something being “believably real”. Hersh’s fantasies and your unbelievably partisan and strident arguments that run counter to logic and fact consistently astound me.
b2