Google “European anti-war protests” and you will see that the status of the sovereign, democratic state of Georgia is conspicuous by its absence from the list of protest-worthy causes. Organizing the stilt puppeteers and kettle drummers, these things take time, it seems. Patience is called for.
Millions marched in San Francisco, Rome, Barcelona and London when a US-led coalition of democracies prepared to depose a murderous tyrant – where are they now, when a tyrant seeks to depose a democratically elected government?
Millions more protested when a wretchedly afflicted people attempted to shake off the chains of 30 year’s oppression, tribalism and superstition to create for themselves and their children a sense of security and a representative government, answerable to the people – where are they now, that a free people has been reacquainted with the rod and beaten back to the yoke?
Others protested in Florence and Glocestershire when NATO bombers intervened to stop a genocide in Kosovo – where are they now, when bombers and helicopter gunships rain death upon innocents?
Western European youth took to the streets in their greasy-haired legions when Ronald Reagan sought to install Pershing II missiles in counterweight to the SS-20’s the Soviet Union had already deployed to threaten Western Europe – where are they now, when Russian “diplomacy” consists of petulantly turning off the oil and natural gas spigot whenever some former vassal state says or does something inconvenient?
Was it because a democratically arrived at decision to go to war gave them time to organize, while Machiavellian schemes hatched in secrecy caught them wrong-footed? Then I await the sound of their drums and cymbals, their garish costumes and smug, supercilious certainties.
I only ask for evidence of some internal consistency, some unifying theory: Is violence, extortion and intimidation always wrong? Or is it sometimes more wrong than other times? Remind me once again, oh, arbiters of moral superiority, who are the good guys?
And where are they now?
Ah, Lex. Such optimistic innocence! Surely there is a unifying thread you have overlooked…
well said, lex, well said. i had been planning a post along the same lines, but you’ve hit the nail on the head. therefore, “uncle”.
One of them, Robert Scheer, has an article in the S.F. Gate today. Blames the Neocons, says it is all a set up to help get John McCain elected.
… and where’s Sean Penn and the Dixie Chickens?
I suppose it shouldn’t, but it does amaze me how much our own citizens hate our country. They speak passionately about their perceived injustices – yet when faced with those exact injustices – in real time – if it’s outside our borders they don’t care.
Where is their passion now? It’s with Cindy Sheehan and her JambaJuice.
I just want to see some of those human shields activated!
The reason none of that stuff is happening is that they ALL know that the Ruskies would whack their asses in heartbeat.
There’s probably a lesson there…but I doubt that we or they will learn anything from it.
Great posting!
It’s really never about “antiwar.” It’s really all about “anti-American.”
1. Yes Sir, No Sir, you got it wrong, Sir. European peace protests are always only directed against the USA, that is what they are for. Because – and that might now hurt you – they are not meant for you, but directed at the more libertarian and conservative part of the local political spectrum. Trick is: Cry Ho-Chi-Minh, claim US is criminal imperial, aggessive, capitalist whatsoever … and stick it to those here who want a free society by claiming they are all hidden fascists or warmongers.
2. There would be secondary chance for peace protests, if Russia would still be a communist state. However, even the most naive socialist has by now realized that Russia is a fascist dictatorship built on an oligarchic capitalism. Pity. If Russian troops would have invaded Georgia under a red flag, THEN we would have peace rallies demanding the international capitalism to stop its henious aggression against Russia.
Summary: You are just the convenient whipping boy in this game. That is especially true for the German peaceniks. The goal is to drive a wedge between USA and Germany – a mission that has been accomplished – in order to prepare the ground to “overcome capitalism” and to install another kind of society, lets say, like the Chavez’s one in Venezoela.
They’re busy making new effigy heads. Burnt up all the good ones already. Gotta figure out how to render that Georgian Prez’s mug. (You do know he started it, right?) Once they find out what he looks like. Maybe trimming up one of Cheney’s as we speak. R&D. That sorta thing takes time.
Don’t you guys know ANYTHING?!?!
[...] the events in Georgia, Neptunus Lex has some [...]
I could be wrong, but I believe it’s more evil than that. My personal belief is that it’s because a large majority of the “peace protestors” are ideological cousins to Putin… that is communist, or communist backed. Look at the people who back CODE Pink; international ANSWER. They’re not going to protest actions made by their own type.
I’m not saying that all of them are communist. Some of them are simply anti-American. But there are some that are.
Jim C
“Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels – men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.”
(Dwight D. Eisenhower)
*sigh*
Again with the confusing comments by fliterman, who, to judge by his previous posts (and lack of response), won’t be expected to do much to clarify his position.
Let me try to understand: Is the point of your Ike quote to try to rationalize the confused utterings of Code Pink and their ilk? Or are you trying to compare rabid European anti-Americanism with well-reasoned and legitimate debate here in this country?
If you want to go slinging Eisenhower quotes, try this one on for size:
“History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.”
Or perhaps this one is more to your taste:
“I despise people who go to the gutter on either the right or the left and hurl rocks at those in the center.”
Work your way back to the center, man; you’ve been out there on the left for far too long, it appears.
And may we never confuse Russian tanks with VW minibuses full of tie dyed hippie protesters either. Those are some flowers the former Soviets are handing out today. 2000 pounders worth of Free Love and lopsided Emotion for those poor misguided Georgian kiddies and old folks, now ain’t they?
Honest dissent, cast only in one true direction (against America), is merely a convenient code word and supports a cover story for disguising the true aims of the subversive propagandist. After all, there was nothing ever wrong with the government in Nazi Germany, Mussolini’s Italy, Stalin’s Soviet Union, Mao’s Red China, and Mugabe’s Zimbabwe that couldn’t be cured with a healthy dose of control of the media,….. and 60 million dead people to cover up their mistakes.
Here in America, we have the exact opposite. Here, the government never does anything right, according to popular opinion and the NY Times. And it is always wrong according to anti-war protesters because the country has bullets, guns, and uses oil, instead of the free things in life, like disease, polluted water and air, and they ignore things like law and order, and a healthy respect for all human life. (Respect, but not worship of the most evil people’s lives imaginable.)
I know which side I would choose to live with.
Lex, you outdid yourself with this post. BZ.
Subsunk
If anti-warfare was their point, these protesters would be out there now. Since they aren’t, we can assume they have other motivations.
As for people protesting our actions? Sure, I don’t care. Just don’t expect me to agree. And don’t get surprised when they’re called out for what they say.
To be a bit slychological: I think many “progressives” have parent issues, and do what they do because they think it will shock the adults–either their real parents, or some kind of idealized parent-figures. This applies to 50-year-olds as much as it does to 20-year-olds.
And since one’s own country is psychologically an extension of one’s parental family, the shock effect can be best achieved by attacking one’s own country, not another one.
I wonder if NBC will interview Becky Hammon to ask her if she’s proud of her decision?
I’m not gonna sing hosannas to Becky, but I understand why she did it. Like Skippy said in “Karma” (to paraphrase) don’t blame someone for playing by the rules. Change the rules.
I truly do worry about my country and my fellow Americans; a country and people that I long ago fought for, risked my life for, and know to be some of the finest people in the world.
However, when I observe actions (or inactions) that I personally believe adversely affect my country, my friends and family, I am compelled to speak out, as should any concerned citizen in a democratic society. I am sorry if this may offend some of my more polarized fellow countrymen.
Our special and wonderful country was founded upon the fundamental beliefs of tolerance and freedom. When I see either assailed, I will speak out; indeed, I will dissent and protest if necessary. I believe it to be my duty to do so.
These, our rights and privileges are the essence of what so many of our ancestors fought and died for. They are precious.
For those who would debase or denigrate the right of any individual their constitutional right for peaceful protest – regardless of how personally obnoxious that particular protest may be – is an affront to every man and woman who in the past few centuries, died to make and keep us free.
Fliterman, I’m trying to figure out who has “debased or denigrated the right of any individual…” Perhaps it’s the hour, but I am honestly having trouble seeing the relationship between your comment and the comments above.l
Flit, ever with the appeals to your alleged service to country and claims to be the true defender of American freedoms. Give me a break. You no more support the ideals embodied in our Constitution than the ACLU does. To pretend otherwise is laughable.
Freedom of speech cuts both ways. If you and your fellow travelers are free to call the US war criminals and burn Uncle Sam (or GWB or anyone else) in effigy, then I (and others) have the right to excorciate you with our speech and protest your treasonous actions. But as always, the left believes in free speech (even hate speech) for themselves, but none for those with whom they disagree.
Read your quote from Ike again. Notice that he says “honest dissent”. That’s all that Lex (and the rest of us) are asking from the “peace movement”. If you are against war, demand UN sanction before the use of any military force, decry the killing of civilians, and demand strong nations not impose their will on other countries, then stand for yor principles. But when you scream and whine and stamp your feet about every US action on the world stage, but give the murderous regimes in Russia, N. Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Venezuela, and other socialist havens a free pass for their actions, then you expose yourself not as a patriot standing up for peace, but as a enemy of the US that desires the death of the liberty and freedom you claim as your cause.
Oh, and when Russian tanks roll through independent nations that have only recently been able to throw off the shackles of their Soviet masters, don’t try to blame Bush. Thanks.
Bravo, fliterman, bravo. But to the point, my pious friend, “Where are they now?”
Dear Filterman,
You state
For those who would debase or denigrate the right of any individual their constitutional right for peaceful protest – regardless of how personally obnoxious that particular protest may be – is an affront to every man and woman who in the past few centuries, died to make and keep us free.
So no matter what is being protested (be it Jews living peacefully in Skokie, the “right” of China to wipe out the Tibetan people through colonization and cultural genocide, or the right to commit sacrilege in Churches and during religious gatherings by various lifestyle innovators), if I debase or denigrate the protestors I am somehow affronting every man and woman who died to help keep us free? The simple answer is no, I am not. You confuse tolerance and respect for the rule of law (I will not stop such protestors as long as they break no laws) with acceptance. The fact that someone has the right to protest and advocate publically for even the most obnoxious and objectively evil things does not mean that I have to give them a respectful hearing or regard them as somehow representing all for which my country stands. Those who use the rights of this country to advocate positions antithetical to other values and tasks of our country (even to the point that their politics, if embraced, could prove fatal to us as a people) may do so, but I can and will regard them as dangerous enemies (and during national emergencies over the past couple of centuries our country has shut such people up and has seen an expansion of civil and political freedoms). A KKK or Nation of Islam protest is a legal but ugly perversion of democracy. I will make way for them as much as I have to in order to be in accord with the law, but I not only will never honor their protest but I will denigrate it. Lesser degrees of denigration and hostility are prudent and appropriate for more controversial issues, but I simply will not pretend that the men and women who gave their lives for our country and our freedom were indifferent to those who despise our country and trample on its values and fought only for an abstraction of “free protest” regardless of the content of that protest. Many of the more sophisticated might have realized that such freedoms even for the most noxious were the price we paid not to have censors and political police – but I doubt that the 54th Massachusetts Volunteer Infantry would regard it as disrespect if during a KKK rally I look on the protestors with a certain contempt. So could you please measure your words, just a little? Voltaire was not a founding father, and I don’t have to defend to the death the right of any fool to utter all his/her hatreds and pathologies in order to cherish either freedom or your sacrifices for our country (for which I remain abidingly grateful). Believing in the Republic need not mean being an ideological masochist.
And as for the issue at hand – I happen to believe many of the peace protestors over the last several years to be misguided utopians or even simply anti-American activists (I overheard one conversation even before the Iraq war went sour where one man complained to another “I suppose we will have to support the fucking troops” – pardon me if I don’t get all misty eyed for how every protestor is the salt of the earth). I also know that there are those who object to our errand in the Mesopotamian wilderness out of more prudential calculations of the way to achieve a more stable world/employ American military power. I will use scorn, satire and invective in carefully calibrated ways when confronted by those who out of lack realism would do damage to what I perceive to be my country’s (and the world’s) vital interest and as much reason and empathy as possible when dealing with those who simply have a different way of weighing the costs and benefits of intervention and the use of military power. The whole point of the right to protest (and free speech) is to advance a not always pretty but effective democratic process in which different views clash within the bounds of the rule of law (minimally) and civility (ideally). I do wish there was more civility in our politics, and undue debasement and denigration of even the most wrong-headed protest is one way to undercut it. Another way to undermine civility is to assume that those who disrespect misguided or obnoxious protestors must somehow be anti-democratic zealots and to try to shut down outrage over any protest, no matter how politically pornograpic, by summoning up the shades of fallen soldiers and their sacrifice to delegitimize any objection to any protest ever.
Sincerely,
David
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 08/14/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
#22 lex – “Where are they now?”
Yes my kind and accommodating friend, I now recall that was indeed the point. But I perhaps wrongly assumed the question to be rhetorical.
An answer, I suppose is they are now mostly dormant. But I’m sure they will return again in our future national discourses, as they always do…. But only as long as we remain a free society.
*************************************
#23 David Curp-
Dear DC,
Thank you for your informative and instructive response. Indeed I find we are very much in agreement, especially with respect to civility and the rule of law.
Unfortunately my earlier choice of wording was extremely poor. Please note what I found intolerable was to ‘denigrate’ (or more appropriately, wish to deny) the “right” of the dissenter to dissent, not the dissenter himself.
While maybe at times uncivil, one may be allowed debase and denigrate an obnoxious protester I suppose. What one may not do is attempt to deny him his constitutional right to dissent.
Regards,
fliterman
Fliterman,
Two things come to mind. First of all, I don’t recall anyone here advocating denying someone the constitutional right to dissent.
Secondly; yes, we know they’re dormant. The real question is why are they dormant now? Why aren’t they protesting Russia’s war of imperialism? Why do they only seem interested in criticising US efforts at promoting democracy? I mean, if they truly are against “wars of agression” and “war for oil” — and make no mistake, that’s what Russia’s efforts are all about — then why aren’t they protesting Russia, and burning Putin in effigy?
Jim C
Lex forgot to mention the sight of good anti-war protesting English housewives chaining themselves to the outer-perimeter fence at Geenham Commons when nuc cruise missiles were installed as follow-on to Pershing II deployment. What thoroughly agressive, nasty, dangerous people we Americans are, n’cest pas? Shame on us.
Folks like Filterman are engaging in incredible intellectual gymnastics in avoiding the obvious answers to your question.
Maybe you’re making it too hard as an essay question. Let’s try multiple guess:
“1. Why are the so-called peace-protesters so quiet at the Russian invasion of Georgia?”
a. The peace-protesters are not truly in favor of peace. Rather, they are actually supporters of anti-freedom powers who are only masquerading as supporters of unilateral “peace”.
b. The peace-protesters ARE honestly interested in unilateral peace. Unfortunately, they are also cowards, so will only stand-up for peace only when they know that doing-so results in zero risk to themselves.
c. They slept-in this morning and have not yet heard the news of Russia’s invasion of Georgia.
d. Both a and b. Some of them are communists/socialists/anti-freedom. Some of them are peace-loving cowards.
e. None of the above.
If this format of the question still seems too hard for folks to answer, we may have to further dumb-down the exam into T/F format.