We’ve already learned that John McCain was an imperfect midshipman 50 years ago.
Today we find that he may not have been the ace of the base as a student naval aviator 40 years ago, although, to be fair, naval aviation used to fling planes into the dirt all regardless, back in the early 60′s. We’ve reduced our mishap rate from 19 per 10,000 hours in those days to less than 2 today, mostly through the use of the Naval Aviation Training and Operations Procedures Standardization (NATOPS) process. Heralding the end of an ubiquitous “kick the tires, light the fires, brief on Guard, first guy airborne has the lead” mindset. Demarcating the beginning of the era of the “Big Blue Sleeping Pill”, because of the blue covers of the ginormous manuals we were forced to pretty much memorize.
So maybe he doesn’t get to fly Air Force One, comes the day. I’m betting he can live with that.
Everyone’s pretty much skipping past that whole 5+ years in the Hanoi Hilton. Heard that tale, I suppose. *Yawn*
Who hasn’t spent five years being tortured for his country? Or, you know: Been the first guy ever elected to edit the law review at Harvard who had never previously published an article therein. Which, I think we can all agree, is practically the same thing.
Now we jump ahead to the “Keating Five” scandal. The one in which McCain was included as a lone Republican to balance a ticket of four more or less corrupt Democratic senators. Joining one of them at the end of the process as a person who was acknowledged to have committed no improprieties. But who had exercised “bad judgment“.
So, we’ve got the 50′s and 60′s accounted for. We’re probably saving the late 70′s for the short hairs of the campaign. “October surprise”.
Divorce, and all that. It should be very telegenic.
The 80′s are covered, what with the Keating thing. Which turned McCain from a foot soldier in the Reagan revolution to an ethical scold, whose ire knew no partisan bound. Got a reputation on the left (and in the media) for being their favorite Republican: Provided lots of talking points. Didn’t get much love from his own caucus for being all mavericky.
Nothing happened in the 90′s. Clinton was president. Everything was perfect.
So there’s, what? Fifty years of “imperfect” public service at the national level? With certain missteps along the way? Because, you know: man in the arena, and that.
As against…
Ivy League schools
Community organizing
150 “present” votes in the Illinois senate
A single term in the US senate spent mostly running for president
That’s just the good stuff.
I’m thinking, Barack gets in?
Don’t let him fly Air Force One either.
Lex;
McCain is certainly no Presidential wonder, but if Barack gets in, we’re all gonna have to buy KY-Jelly by the handy-dandy Teddy Kennedy size bucket.
…..And it’s still gonna hurt.
It hurts to even think of it.
One of the oddest aspects of Obama’s shady background seems to be that no one seems to remember him being at Columbia, and even he doesn’t remember where he lived while there. Of course there was that time out in Pakistan when US citizens weren’t supposed to travel there. Who was footing the bills?
The whole Harvard Law Review thing appears like a PC “See…we’re really progressive here at Haavaad” kind of situation. Affirmative Action Ivy Leaguer with the problem that law firms know about the lowered standards for those grads and shy away from offering jobs.
It does indeed hurt to think about the first AA president (with poorly documented birth records) commanding the military forces he obviously has little respect for.
Lex, part of my problem is I knew men who served with McCain on the USS Forrestal until the disaster of a fire. McCain then moved over to the Orisiskini. I asked one of those men, “Are you planning on voting for McCain?” I’ve known this man since SEP 1958, when I was still in junior High school, he is older than me. He and I had coffee this morning. His answer, “I wish I could just answer, ‘no’. But that would not be the truth, my answer is, ‘HELL, NO’! The past is important, the future is nothing more than recycled history.” I would add when Lyndon B. Johnson became President, he had absolutely no military background. What was he to do? He went to an elderly active duty 5-Star GEN Dwight Eisenhower for counsel on a regular basis. There is an old truth, “The wise man man knows that he knows not. The foolish man knows not that he knows not.” If Obama is a wise man, he will admit the weaknesses and people will come in to fill the voids.
If McCain wants to win, drop the “Maverick” label with his Vice Presidential choice doing the same thing as Obama. Either team has a chance, but arrogance doesn’t cut it.
Like Grumpy’s friend, there are many who served with McCain whom I suspect would say the same, and not vote for him!
Going far beyond the LA Times article is another current one ……
[I can't seem to link it - spam locker eats it- but it's at the current Rolling Stone Issue "Make-Believe Maverick]
It is a much longer, better-researched article with excellent background information from legitimate sources. It also accurately fills in the holes in his résumé and covers a much more recent McCain, beyond his earlier years. (And his spots have not changed, obviously.)
For all of voting age, it is a must-read for those interested in the character – or lack thereof – of this flawed presidential candidate.
You won’t like what you will read; but neither did I, although I already knew much of it.
Make-Believe Maverick. Just Google it for the story.
We all know McCain is responsible for weapons cooking off, and all the shipboard fires on the ships he was on.
Why everyone knows that when one sailor is present when energetic materials, go kind of, “energetic” it’s that sailor’s fault (disdainful sarcasm over.)
The cookoffs that happened on the Oriskany and the Forrestal, and the loss of life, had nothing to do with John McCain. It had to do with our imperfect understanding of energetic materials response, and mitigation.
Deal with it.
To Grumpy: Get your facts straight (“Lyndon B. Johnson became President, he had absolutely no military background.”) LBJ, a person whose grave I would gladly relieve myself upon, served in the US Navy during WWII – where he was awarded the Silver Star – something he enjoyed showing to people. Not that he did anything heroic to get it beyond having stellar contacts with someone in Congress, from what I’ve read. Sort of the John Kerry of his time but without the ability to wound himself and write himself up for more awards.
With regard to the other commenters and their “Hell No” friends : The specter of an Obama presidency cannot override the weirdness of McCain? If not, some people need to learn to prioritize better. I don’t like McCain, but it’s for sure that an Obama presidency, coupled with the Nancy & Harry show in congress, will be very negative to this country domestically and in foreign affairs.
#5 Allen – Didn’t ever bother to read the long article, did you? … obvious by your response.
FYI, the McCain article exonerates McCain for the fire, unlike some other lefty sites that erroneously talk about his mischievous “wet starts” that purportedly and inaccurately caused the conflagration.
The article is (although a little biased) very accurate.
So read the article first. Then get back to me, Allen. OK?
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain
fliterman, that should do it. I agree, I don’t like most of it. The more facts you know of that period of time, the more you don’t like it.
I think the wildest thing I’ve ever seen in a Presidential Election was in relation to the Kennedy Nixon Election. During one of the last news conferences with Dwight Eisenhower, everybody was seated waiting for the President. The President walks in, the first question, “Mr President, what do you think Richard Nixon will bring to this Nation?” Eisenhower looks around the room, silently and says, “Why don’t you give me a week and MAYBE I’ll think of something.” Now, that says a great deal.
If we look at the actual history, APR 1968, Lyndon Johnson told the Nation, he was not going to seek re-election. One month short of a year Dwight Eisenhower was dead. Later that year Nixon was “elected” to office, with that the last laugh. We all know from Watergate, Ike got the last laugh.
Okay Fliterman–I read the long story about McCain. I will say that I wouldn’t expect Rolling Stone Magazine to be particularly friendly to someone on the right. You can detect just a wee bit of bias there in the recounting of the Keating 5 story. It’s true McCain was found to have exercised “poor judgment” and so the Rolling Stone reports it. What the Rolling Stone doesn’t report is (a) the other four involved got hammered by the Ethics Committee with motions for formal censure etc; and (b) Bob Bennett long time Washington lawyer and counselor for various Senate Committees who was intimately involved with the Keating 5 investigation says that McCain backed away from the situation immediately when he realized Keating et al were “over the line”; the rest of the Senators (all were Democrats) continued on with their efforts. In his recent book, Bennett says he recommended that McCain be released from the investigation, but the Democrats in congress insisted that at least one Republican had to be included–and that was McCain.
I’ll agree that McCain has made a lot of enemies; that he has a bad temper and is self righteous; that he screwed around a lot -maybe even as much as Bill Clinton–and that he has ticked off me, along with many other conservatives, on any number of issues. His bipartisan efforts usually mean that the conservatives wind up with the short and dirty end of the stick.
All that is true and more. In a perfect world I wouldn’t be faced with making a choice between McCain and Obama; but the world is what it is, and I am resigned to choosing the lesser of two evils. For me, that’s McCain. Your mileage may vary.
No fliterman I didn’t read the whole article. I stopped much earlier. You’re correct, when I detect a portion of bovine byproduct in the meal I lose my appetite.
Thanks Mike Meyers (#9), for taking the time to read and learn. And to respond and retort with an elegant, intelligent, and persuasive response.
SteveC, You made your point, LBJ was a Member of Congress at the time he tried to enter the Service. The Secretary of the Navy had to write a special letter. But the issue was always controversial, made even more so by the awarding of the Silver Star. It was awarded by MacArthur, but this is all questionable because of the Constitutional Separation of Powers. Because of the circumstances of the situation, it was always believed by everybody as political, rather than military. Therefore, when he talked with Eisenhower, there was a systemic awkwardness between the two men. Therefore, LBJ would describe this time as having, “absolutely no military background.” This is not just a time for book knowledge, perceptions can have overwhelming value.
Mike Meyers, fliterman, I agree the article has a bias. I personally believe there is no such a thing as an unbiased opinion. You are right, Rolling Stone has a definite bias, but what if 10% of it is the truth? What do we do now? In the last couple of months, we’ve had a few major problems in the World. We’ve had the Bank Crisis and the Russia/Georgia issue. We must first remember these people are just running for office and are not in office. Obama moved as a Senator just votes, not with an inordinate amount of rhetoric. McCain explained how he was going work toward solving the Bank Crisis. But when it came to the Russia/Georgia situation, two things McCain came out and said, “We’re all Georgians!” There is only one person who can say that and it is the sitting President, not a candidate. The same candidate had a paid lobbyist from the Nation of Georgia on his staff. I know Schunaman is supposedly on a leave of absence. This is just poor decision making.
As I look at this election, the choice is like a multiple choice, option ‘A’ sucks, option ‘B’ sucks. Choose ‘A’ or ‘B’.
As usual, I will end up voting for the one who is most despised by those whom I, well…, most despise. Call it ‘The Theory of Voting For Whomever Pisses Off All the Right People’, if you will.
In this case, the choice to me is obvious, just as it was in ’04. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, though.
Back more or less on target, I suggest that Obama actually learn to fly.
That would actually give him his first solid accomplishment.
Something you cant be given but earned.
The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 10/07/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.
Interesting that everyone is getting themselves all knotted up about McCain’s military experiences and the Keating 5.
Not much being mentioned in this thread about Obama’s background and associations with the likes of Ayers, Rezko and Wright – to name but a few. For contrast.
I see a fundamental difference between both men in this regard – McCain has either paid for his actions, been dealt with according to the rules of his time or been rebuked by his peers. McCain has never really lied about any of it has he – he admits to his faults and takes his lumps.
Obama – notsomuch. He continues to deny his association with Ayers despite all the rich evidence to the contrary. He abandons anyone who gets in his way and just assumes that no one will dare question him – because it will be racial donchaknow.
Like many here – I don’t particularly care for either candidate. But on November 4th, I will vote the best way possible for my country.
And the community organizer with a record as thin as tissue paper – won’t be it.
Grumpy – and how well did LBJ’s counsel work out? He was so focused on his social programs that he virtually ignored what his SECDEF was doing with Viet Nam and what the JCS were not doing. DOD was a sideshow to LBJ.
Until it forced him to quit.
Which ever candidate gets elected is going to need good advisors, but I don’t think any of the folks that could be considered good are going to work for them…
Lex, part of my problem is I knew men who served with McCain on the USS Forrestal until the disaster of a fire. McCain then moved over to the Orisiskini.
Grumpy, how come there is a photo of John McCain on the flight deck of the FID -taken AFTER the fire- peering into the hole made from one of the bombs dropped off the deck?
Busy at Day Job just now, so will have to find the photo later…
BTW.. thats Oriskany
FYI, I knew a few of the folks seen in the PLAT footage milling about the RA-5C in the foreground.
Also used to do some sailing with the gent who was XO of VF-11 at the time.
If Obama is a wise man, he will admit the weaknesses and people will come in to fill the voids.
Yeah, but that’s a pretty big ‘if’ isn’t it? You know, considering all the other “trusted advisors” that he filled previous voids with?
Grumpy/STEVEC:
The combat msn in which LBJ was awarded his Silver Star was bogus, according to the latest research and an eyewitness account by a surviving/living aircrew member. All evidence suggests that the ac (an AAF
Martin B-26 Marauder) had to RTB prior to the tgt due to eng. generator failure and was never subjected to enemy gunfire. See:
http:www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/johnson.silver.star/story/storypage.html
a photo of John McCain on the flight deck of the FID
Check out the 0:51 point :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzgV5QM5fi8
here.
Shot of the front page of the Virginia Pilot…
I think Lex, and most of the commenters are holding back. So here’s how I feel about it.
If I found out that John McCain had spent his years in Hanoi getting extra rice and a blanket in return for cooperation with his captors, it would not change my vote. If I found out he had pickled off a pod of Zunis and started that shipboard fire all by himself, it would not change my vote. If I found out he liked to eat endangered species and had dined on roast Bald Eagles, it would not change my vote. If I found out he changed his own oil, just so he could dump it in a trout stream, …well you get the idea.
I could make you a list for Sarah Palin, as well, but this is a family website.
The things I don’t like about John McCain are mostly political, where I think he compromises too much. The “campaign finance reform” that bears his name is an unConstitutional disaster. But they don’t begin to match how wrong it would be to elect the Senator from Illinois.
In fact, the one think I could think of that would change my vote would be for John McCain to promise that, if elected, he would make Barack Hussein Obama the Secretary of State, and do everything in his power to advance Sen. Obama’s platform. Then I would just stay home, because it would no longer matter.
Other than that, anything anyone offers as a McCain negative, I consider the alternative and nod. I’m not watching debates, I have given up news and newspapers. I’m done, my decision is made. I still read blogs, and here I’ve spent a few minutes thinking about it. Please, hold your nose and do the right thing for the country. In 4 years, get involved sooner and help select a better candidate.
@Sid, THANK YOU, for the correction on the spelling of the “Oriskany”.
As I read everybody’s comments, there are some interesting insights into all of us, including me.
@daveg, in #14, your last sentence is the way most of us feel about this election. In #20, I would submit that you could remove the name, “Obama”, and replace it with “McCain” and it would be an equally true comment, totally.
@bullnav, you are right. But now, how does this apply to today? We live in a world that is fundamentally changed. How do we react to this change? We must first realize, as you said, LBJ was so focused on social issues and not military issues, but was this real reason for his leaving the Presidency? LBJ picked Eisenhower, an old frail General to be his counselor, why? Both men saw in each other a common principle for THIS Nation, not Viet Nam. Today, we would call it “hard power” and “soft power” needs to be laminated to secure this Nation in a terrorist world. They must work together.
Who ever is electeted must bring them together for a strong Nation.
Man-that was blunt.
However Ronald Reagan’s question is still valid: Are you better off today than you were eight years ago?
I’m not.
That said-truth in advertising-part of that has nothing to do with the election, but where circumstances have me living right now. That’s not any politicians fault.
Its all mine.
John McCain gave a full measure as a POW. However its not relevant to today. That may suck-but it is what it is. Make the economy get better and get him a good VP candidate and he would be doing better.
The issue is that the party in power is deserving to suffer for what is going on in America today.
The issue is not Obama-it really is not. Its the baggage he brings with him in the Democratic party.
Plus it ain’t over till its over. The Cubs let me down-so to can this election.
The true rot is Congress. Both houses are rotten to the core (with a few, a very few exceptions). What would serve this nation better than anything else is term limits for a start. No leaving Congress and head straight to a job with a corporation that you had legislative oversight on. Make PACs and their like ILLEGAL.
Do all that, and we might have a chance.
One more thing relevant to the subject. When “Six Frigates” came out, I begged everyone I talked with to read it. Not because it was an excellent book. Not because it really told you how the Navy was born. What impressed the hell out of me, was how in 1794 the Congress was just as venal as it is today. The ONLY thing they got right was that only the President, George Washington himself, selected the first officers of the US Navy. Did a pretty fair job, he did.
Just out of curiosity.
Lex has told us stories about how pilots “earned” their nicknames/callsigns( or whatever the aviators call them).
What was McCain’s, and how did he get it?
Yeah, I am eager to vote for McCain, but ONLY because Obama is a despicable liar who will do our country irrreparable harm.
But, I would vote for Sarah Palin for Prez with much easier conscience than either of the clowns running for the number 1 job. We deserve better choices!
John:
I think the calls sign thing came later; after the release of “Top Gun”. We tried it in the early 70′s before the end of the VN thing. Our XO demanded that we “vote” on call signs. We voted that his would henseforth be: BSMSPHD. We couldn’t pronounce it but he never learned that it meant: B#ll Sh*t, More of the same, Pilled higher and deeper. Not all call signs are necessarily complementary.
What would serve this nation better than anything else is term limits for a start.
Or, failing that, a Supreme Court that can read, comprehend, and adhere to the simple English used in the constitution.
I liked Lex’s dexcsription of the orginin of hsi c/s.
xairboss,
Our pilots and RIOs had call signs by 1977-78 when I got there. So it came well before TopGun, which came out in1986. And a few of them were a lot like Maverick, sun glinting off their smiles, titanium gonads throwing sparks as they dragged them across the tarmac…
Call signs appeared, some had a history, some were earned with one huge boneheaded display that didn’t manage to kill them. Really awesome nicknames occasionally followed enlisted guys, too. You often needed to go drinking with a group of Marines to hear where the names originated.
By the way, TopGun is gay. (language waning)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrR7L-qRYIY
Curtis,
Me too. But…
There, I fixed it for you.
LbF,
Chagrin!
The callsign “tradition” I find hilarious is the Air Force’s. They have formal parties — seem to remind me more of the Delta Tau Delta pin distribution scene — where they “announce” the chosen call sign. Particularly humorous when it is done by 4373rd Intel Squadron — so they too, don’t feel left out of the ascot wearing party. No one at these shindigs ever wanted to answer the question: If you aren’t ever on a radio, why do you have a call sign? — a turd in the punchbowl moment every time. Most also failed the QA check– you wouldn’t want anyone to know the story behind how or why you got it.
And, no, I won’t tell you mine.
asm:
I stand corrected, Thanks. I guess some of us were just much slower to adjust than others.
Call signs came about after “CB” car and truck radios became the craze in the late 60′s, early 70′s. Everyone had to have a personal “Handle” and then develop a hillbilly accent to go with their diarrhea of the mouth. Around the mid 70′s the concept of “Callsigns” became the thing to do, who knows why. In the Naval Aviation of the 60′s you would have been laughed out of the ready room if you had a callsign. We had nicknames for some, but not all. They were never used on the radio. The best one of all belonged to a fellow named Jerry Breast at VX-5, later became a two star, and a really great guy. His nickname was “Felter”. His wife, Van, was dubbed “Ophelia”.
re – “Not all call signs are necessarily complementary.”
Ain’t dat da truth you electronic yat! I had two- east coast and west..even to this day I respond to several!
BillC- his son (0-6 now) callsign is “Hooter”. Still is I think!
b2
All the discussions seem to be about which candidate would cause the least harm as opposed to who will do the most good. According to one of my news sources, there may be another option.
Lex: Can’t say I didn’t warn you.
B2
Glad to hear young John is following in his pop’s footsteps. The Breasts lived next door to us in China Lake. John , 3yrs, would climb the fence and knock on the patio door. My son would let him in. There was nothing like opening your eyes and seeing his face from a distance of 12 inches staring intently, with more garbage coming out of his nose than you could believe. Obviously he has cleaned up quite well.
Badbob:
With all due respect, Yat should be capitalized. It is, after all, a proper noun. Having said that, I do like the sound and the feel of the tongue when pronouncing: “electronic Yat”. Not many in this world can claim that honor. Respects.
xair, voting for the lesser evil is the best we can do. I thought everybody knew that.