Sometimes you don’t:
Lt. Col. Thomas Bouley, commander of the 65th Aggressor Squadron at Nellis, died July 30 after ejecting from his stricken F-15D Eagle when the plane was about 550 feet above the desert, said the president of the accident board, Brig. Gen. Robert Otto, a former F-15 safety officer and now commander of the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale Air Force Base, Calif.
Bouley’s passenger, a British observer pilot, ejected less than a second before Bouley and survived.
It’s easy to second guess a late ejection – there comes a time when you’ve done all that you can do and you’re supposed to give the jet back to the taxpayers.
But I read something once in a USAF safety magazine, something written by a senior officer that has always stuck with me. Memory forces me to paraphrase, but it went something like this: “When a troop augers in, it’s tempting to stand on the sidelines and play the critic. But we have to keep in mind that he put everything he’d ever been taught, everything he had and everything he ever would have had into that decision. He believed in it so completely that he laid his life on the line for it. Everyone who ever flew with him, or taught him, or fought alongside him is a part of who he was, and by his loss we are all diminished. The fact that he was wrong is not an opportunity for those left behind who have not faced what he faced to stand in judgment – it is a tragedy.”
True.
Si.
More in this:
http://media.lasvegassun.com/media/pdfs/blogs/documents/2008/11/24/report1124.pdf
b2
Ahhh, but that last sentence is found nowhere in bureaucratic thinking. There, the investigators only shoot the wounded “…stand on the sidelines and play the critic..”, I think it must be in their manual. I just love that “pilot error” catchall phrase so often quoted; blame it on the poor sucker who is now fertilizing some square feet of field someplace.
So tell me, whatever happened to zero/zero ejection seats anyway? Were (are) those a figment of my imagination? …. At a 25,000 feet per minute descent rate, they proabaly would not have made a difference anyway.
I dunno, but the “Code of the West” attitude dies hard. No one wants to be the brunt of the jokes back at the bar if you punch out. I’ve got a picture somewhere of an F-4 flying along swimmingly in level flight with the rear canopy gone and the rail extended out there all by it’s lonesome. It happened
during ACT down in Libya–the AC
finally saved it, but the back-seater
obviously had a different take on the odds–needless to say, they never crewed together again. “Oh yea of little faith” and all that….
BTW, it doesn’t say, but did the guy pop the chute to try to stabilize, I wonder? Asymmetrical loads can be a bitch. We had a bird go in down in Incirlik when the feed to one of the external tanks froze causing imbalanced load as contributing factor.
Bottom line, as Lex points out, none of us were there, so……….
Joe,
You’re exactly right, zero/zero seats assume zero descent rate. The rocket motor has to overcome the descent rate and to do so in most high speed dive situations would probably kill the pilots with the acceleration required. The seat in the F-15 is probably the best in the world and was said (although I never tested, nor wanted to) to be able to save a pilot who ejected while flying inverted at 150′ AGL with zero sink.
On reading the executive summary, it brought to mind a question I had. Why are Eagles flying with two external tanks now instead of one centerline tank, like they did in the dark ages when I was flying them?
(Other than to give F-18s a break in DACT, of course.)
What’s that minute to live rule go by- VSI vs. alt? Seconds are components of minutes and when viewed with the dive-loss charts seared into memory must be adhered to with or without external cues or safety devices..That’s called systems knowledge beyond the surface. Near as I know there is no fudge factor built into them charts.
I gotta figure any GPWS system (never flew with one) the Eagle had to have, must have been “bitching” the whole time when the excessive dive-loss rate was calculated in the algorithm, and in reponse, had to have generated some kind of call out..Not just once either. Maybe not “Eject-Eject”, but perhaps something else.
Do you modern 15 and above pilots have any idea?
b2
B2,
The Eagles (A-D) I flew were all air to air and didn’t have any GPWS. Don’t know whether later mods or models had them, although I suspect the E models do.
Don’t know if it would have helped him in this case though. As a young Lt on a night ride over Koon-ni range in Korea, I severely over-g’d an F-4D when I got disoriented in what was supposed to be a 30 degree dive bomb delivery. Bottomed out of the dive at about 150′ AWL in what was supposed to be a 3500′ min altitude. That aircraft had both a radar altimeter and a back seater. BTW, when I was standing tall in front of the wing commander, he asked why I pulled 10 Gs. My response, of which I’m rather proud now, was “because I couldn’t get 11, sir!”
Juvat,
They let you become an AC as a Lt? In the old school AF I was in you could have had 10,ooo hrs in the damn thing and still wouldn’t have been put on orders as an AC until you were a Capt.
Coursin’ I’m talking about 2-seaters–with single seaters there’s hardly any choice, is there?
Juvat,
11gs-H.S. ! Good answer though. Better than “$hit happens, sir”.
When stuff like this happens nowadays Juvat ,(not like it didn’t happen a real lot in the olden days,eh?) the young’uns want all kinds o’whiz bang annunciators and tones and beeps to tell ‘em stuff. Better living through software…
Lex had GPWS I think, part of the time anyways. maybe he’ll weigh in. They don’t let me near Hornets.
b2
The laws of physics can be unforgiving. I was on an accident investigation of a recce F-4 that went in at RAF Alconbury
much like the one here with front seater going in with the aircraft and the backseater found plowed into the ground by the seat (no time for separation)after ejecting, still gripping the face curtain over his helmet–the RAF guy in this instance was lucky, lucky. (And had a better seat)
Juvat, I have a distant recollection of being well hosted by Juvats in Korea, then flying the Venerable F-4, playing an O’Club game called the dynamic dollar that the Navy won handily. Some kind of head hunter on the flight suit patch…we’ve all lost fellow airman to the perils of this honorable trade. A tall glass to each one of them, gentlemen.
B2 –
When I got my CAT IV, VFA’s were just getting GPWS. I can’t speak to how it worked pointing noses at mud, but I can tell you that I once got a “PULL UP!! PULL UP!!” at about 20K inverted, at the top of a loop. Wasn’t sure which way to pull.
I knew the TPS monkey who did all the flt. tests on the system. Had to do some pretty hairy proving stuff.
Nose
How is the ejection sequence done in that airplane? I mean, can either guy eject at any time, or does the aircraft commander pull a handle and both go out sequentially, or what?
Juvat-
Good answer! What the Wing CDR have to say after that? I’m betting there was a delay while he worked to keep from laughing.
Justthisguy -
IIRC, all US 2-seat tactical aircraft sequence the back-seater out first so he doesn’t eat the rocket exhaust from the AC, if the AC is the one who initiated the bailout.
There’s also a classic ejection story regarding two astronauts (I think one was Dave Scott, Apollo 15 commander) in the 60′s flying a two-seat F-104. They were on final at Edwards and had just crossed the threshhold when the engine went. The -104 had pretty much zero glide, and they were’nt but a couple of heartbeats above the ground. The 2 seat -104 didn’t sequence it’s occupants – each one pulled his own handle to get out, and that’s what happened here: the backseater pulled the handle, but Scott DIDN’T, electing to try and drive the plane onto the runway. He succeeded, but the plane broke its back on landing. However, BOTH pilots made the right choice. Had the backseater not ejected, he would have been killed when the engine – broken partially loose by the impact – crushed the rear cockpit. And upon investigation, it was discovered that there was a flaw in the rocket motor casing on Scott’s seat. Had he pulled the handle it would have exploded under him.
Mike Kozlowski
Wow.
Some days, you’re just being Watched over.
JTG, it depends a bit upon the jet/seat combination and some internal settings (it was so much simpler in the FA-18A & C series).
Speaking under correction as a single-seat guy, I believe the A-6 bubbas ejected individually. I do remember a tale about a pilot performing an underrun at night and low altitude after a blown rendezvous. Shut the throttles off rather than to idle, which met his B/N’s ejection criteria: Dark outside, dark inside, less than 500 feet. The pilot went to work getting the engines back on line and flew on to Roosevelt Roads solo. Kind of the upside of carrying too much smack into the rendezvous – still had time/speed for an airstart.
Fore and aft seated aircraft (especially trainers) generally have an eject select handle or switch with one position for “command eject” and another position for “untrusted moron”, although it’s not labeled quite that way.
In the two-seat Hornet, TA-4J Skyhawk, TF-16N Falcon and F-5F Tiger II, if the handle was aft (or its equivalent), either crewman pulling the handle resulted in both of them going for a ride, the aft seater going first to prevent him from getting burned by the front seater’s rocket motor, the front seater following after a 3/4 or so second delay. If the handle was forward, on the other hand, the aft seater would go for a walk by himself if he pulled the handle, but both would do the Martin-Baker penetration if the front seater ejected. It being considered harder to land the jet from the back, and newbies not being trusted to do the make or buy decision for everyone.
I believe the Tomcat had the same scheme, adding a slight offset left for the pilot and right for the RIO. Most squadrons opted for an SOP that the handle would always be in command eject. Crew concept, and that. Trust. The theory was that RIOs were less personally invested in bringing the jet home in one piece than pilots tend to be.
Of course, the handle was in the front cockpit, out of sight from the RIO. It’s a two-way street, trust.
S-3 pilots got a raw deal back in the day, with up to three seats going before he finally got his boost. Had to think ahead, I guess.
It was every man for himself in a non-ejection seat aircraft. Get your stories straight on the ground.
Can’t speak to the Double Ugly (EA-6B). Never flew it.
When I was flying E2′s (NFO) I pretty much assumed that if we weren’t pretty close to straight and level flight I wasn’t going to get out of the aircraft. From the front (2 pilots) or the back (3 NFO’s), egress consisted of waddling to the door that (you hope) had seperated correctly from the A/C and wasn’t jammed, and then rolling out into the big blue. Considering that you had your chute on your back and your seatpan slapping you in the hind quarters, with all the associated staps hanging off you everywhere, the idea that you could “quickly” egress when straight and level induced a knowing chuckle, and the idea that you could egress at all in any real kind of departed flight situation was totally laughable.
The only crew I ever heard of that successfully bailed out of an E2 was in the Med (circa 1993 or so) with a fire in the right engine (there’s a whole ‘nuther story about the E2 engine fire warning system and NATOPS being “somewhat ignored”, but that is for another day). After the crew got out safely the A/C continued straight and level towards unfriendly territory and a Hornet was brought in to gun it down. Didn’t see the HUD tape myself, but did see a pic of the HUD with the piper on a burning E2.
Not too long after this incident another E2 went down with all hands from smoke in the cockpit – flying pretty close to the boat as I recall. Nobody bailed out. It was a really tragic incident.
And not long after that another E2 went down flying in support of the Bosnian campaign. Flew upwind of the ship and just disappeared. No calls, no nothing.
Ejection seats might’ve been pretty handy in both of those situations. As it was 10 good people died.
I trusted pretty much everyone I flew with, with a few rare exceptions, and in those cases I trusted the guy with him in the right seat. But the pucker factor could still be quite high at times.
F-4′s have the command selection in the rear seat. With the handle vertical the RIO could give away the jet on their own, and horizontal would initiate both seats. The sequence was front canopy, rear canopy, rear seat, front seat. The front canopy went first to facilitate positive airflow pressure under the rear canopy as it separated, which was found to have issues leaving the airplane otherwise.
One of our A-6 RIO’s at Pt. Mugu had a fleet experience where while mid-stroke going for the pointy end, the driver thought it a good time to get out of the jet…without saying anything…much to his bubba’s consternation. Fortunately, the jet had sufficient nose up trim and flew away harmlessly into the sunrise, leaving the bewildered one to make his own getaway. I hear the driver later handed over his wings and called it a career.
And then there was the A3D (said to stand for “all 3 dead”) where, if memory serves, at least one of the crew ejected down!?!
Yikes.
Quartermaster,
He was a good guy. This was 79-80 time frame, myself and one other Lt were the only guys in the squadron without Vietnam time. He yelled at me for a while, made sure I did a few tours at the end of the runway making sure every other pilot in the wing remembered to put their landing gear down then gave me several remedial night rides to make sure I wouldn’t break any more of his jets. Afterwards he made sure I was assigned me to a phenomenal flight lead and given an excellent back seater. Learned an awful lot about employing a fighter in the ensuing year, much more than I would have gotten stateside.
And then there was the A3D (said to stand for “all 3 dead”) where, if memory serves, at least one of the crew ejected down!?!
The A-3 had no ejection seats…
In the bomber version there was a hatch on top of the greenhouse, and the underfuselage ladder could be used as a chute for the 3 man crew…hence the sobriquet.
But I can tell you most folks who flew the bombers figured they didn’t need no stinkin’ seats.
The electric versions had a fuselage side door as well for the crew in the compartment in the area occupied in the original design by the bomb bay.
The USAF variant, the B-66, had ejection seats….which robbed the performance from the aircraft.
As I recall, command ejection in the S-3 resulted in the simultaneously launch of the rear seats, followed by the front seats. You ejected through the canopy, counting on the seat to shatter it sufficiently on the way out.
There were a few occasions where individual ejection was initiated by one of the two back seaters – the problem was if one of the back seaters initiated slightly ahead of the the other, the second guy followed out in the rocket exhaust of the first, which could make for some nasty burns.
Sad tale of what happened to a neighbor…
Sid, that’s a powerful tale.
Gotta be a terrible burden to bear, I’m alive and he’s not, he saved my life and neither of us did anything wrong.
I expect men who’ve served in combat learn to accept that burden. Most of them.
Sorry, I’m still having a tough time with it.
– Max
Prowlers had command ejection on the pilot’s seat, which would initiate E3-E2-E1-P, with a .4 sec delay between each seat. Each ECMO could initiate their own ejection.
I seem to recall some changes to the A-6 ejection system due to a squadron CO on a flyoff having a hypoxic episode and going down with the plane while the B/N was only able to eject himself. My memory is a little fuzzy on that one, and the changes came after the end of my flying.
The EA-6B seats are programmed to shoot out each person staggered by 0.4 seconds: rear seats 0.0, 0.4, front seats 0.8, 1.2. If you’re sitting in the 0.0 seat, you should keep in mind that the restraints pull you into the proper position as you’re going up the rails; you forget that to your chiropractor’s benefit. Anyone other than the pilot has the option to walk home alone, but you’re still gonna wait the same amount of time. The pilot always has command eject, and the front seat ECMO also has that option. Empty seats are kept disabled since they can interfere with a safe ejection.
I had been at the Prowler RAG for about a month when we lost an aircraft on a training det at El Centro; three souls gone before you took a breath. Thought about bringing it up a couple of times, and decided not to basically because of Lex’s second to last paragraph. Whether the airplane crapped out on them or they did something wrong doesn’t change the bottom line:
They died in the line of duty.
Any other information from the mishap is for those who have to close ranks and continue the mission.
The loss of the RF-4 I alluded to above was due to the incapacity of the front seater much like the incident prowlerguy mentions–with the backseater getting out too late due to problems with the handle Mongo mentioned.We knew from radio calls the Nav was having problems turning the handle horizontal for command eject to save his AC, and his struggles with it cost him his life as he got out too late. That accident caused every F-4 world-wide to be re-inspected for poss. frozen/jammed command eject handle links.
Intruders go individually. Ya gotta pull…Some Intruder pilots have landed without BNs..well, more than should have… Some BNs were left alone to reach over, bring the bird to wings level and then calmy leave..This one was unique:
http://www.gallagher.com/ejection_seat/technical_aspects.htm
The S-3 is a 2+2 system.-front/aft. In crew eject, back seats go 1st and then front seats. The pilot ain’t last unless he’s fat (physics)…From ejection initiation by Pilot/Copilot the entire sequence until pilot/copilot get a chute (lowalt) is 1.6 seconds. The S-3 does have self eject but that is used as a b/u..If you go out by yourself you WILL burn the dude/dudess alongside. Self eject is normally selected prior to headknockers down- same an A-4/A-7.
Any comments on actual GPWS knowledge, other system warnings for OOCF in 18′s or above? Think about it, if a GPWS systen can warn or tell you the acft is about to hit the water based on rates or that you are approaching stall..it’s gotta be able to tell you when to eject in an unrecoverable spin…
b2
In command eject in the hoovers, if one of the front seats pulled the handles the back seats went out first, then the front. In the back, if we pulled the handles we were going solo. Unless the command/single levers were installed upside down. When 24 had the COTAC go by himself the wing learned we had this problem,
, for a short time anyway.
We had another problem with roll angle. The back seats went out at an angle to the side for separation.