Former UK Defence minister Michael Portill0 – a Tory, and current shadow chancellor of the Exchequer – writes a scathing treatment of the British political establishment as evidenced by their commitment to stabilizing Basra, Iraq:
(For) all his persuasiveness, Blair could not hold public opinion over the medium term and so he cut troop numbers fast and sought to avoid casualties. As a result, British forces lost control of Basra and left the population at the mercy of fundamentalist thugs and warring militias, in particular Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.
The secondary cause of failure was a misplaced British disdain for America, shared by our politicians and senior military. In the early days in Iraq we bragged that our forces could deploy in berets and soft-sided vehicles while US forces roared through Baghdad in heavily armoured convoys. British leaders sneered at the Americans’ failure to win hearts and minds because of their lack of experience in counterinsurgency.
The fighting spirit of the British Tommy has perhaps been equaled, but never excelled. The quality of their senior military and political leadership has, over the course of the years, left something to be desired. The question Portillo asks is whether the people of Britain have the sand to support the soldiers their government puts on the field.
I hope so. We need them.
Update: Possibly related. Rioting. In Sweden.
“The fighting spirit of the British Tommy has perhaps been equaled, but never excelled.”
Now that’s a difficult line to accept for an Australian!
Not looking to hijack, but I don’t get the “possibly related” bit.
Malmo is for all practical purposes a Muslim state (utterly failed and relying on infidel jizya for its support, like Pakistan). When Denmark cracked down on its illegals a few years, they all tramped across the bridge to Malmo, Sweden. Sweden, after all, has the fattest welfare teats in Europe. It’s also broke, and will probably be first socialist state in the EU to completely collapse under its own groaning weight (which is why young Swedes of talent and intellect have been rushing across the bridge the other way, to Denmark).
Following Shari’a, particularly complex property doctrines known as waqf, these “youths” as they are mostly described, when they are not given the grand title of “islamic cultural society,” had a mosque in the property owner’s basement. Now, kafir like us have a right to our property only insofar as it serves the interests of our Muslim masters, and once it became a mosque the building became a piece of Islamic property, or waqf, in perpetuity. Something I’m sure no one told the property owner because these were nice, moderate rent-paying Muslims, perhaps persecuted in their homelands, just wanting a better life for themselves, yada yada yada. If they couldn’t have it, he couldn’t either, and so the fires began. Europe’s other squatting trash, the anarcho-leftists, have been helping out and pitching in with a molotov or two, also.
Strangely, the city of Milan seems to be the first in Europe to wake up to this fact, for when the city closed down its largest mosque the Mohammedans tried to take over a soccer stadium for their prayers. Do not mess with Italians and their soccer, the invaders were met with policemen and clubs. Nor do the local authorities allow them to pray in the streets (not that it doesn’t happen). Oh, the oppression of it all, but the authorities are well aware of the consequences of letting their tens of thousands of Muslim immigrants congregate in one location.
And to complete the hijack, the requisite warning: you back in America are much nearer to this reality in many of our cities than you know. Every Muslim wash-basin in an airport, in a shopping mall, every prayer room taken over in a university, every factory that is forced to battle a lawsuit alleging that they treat Muslims and their “unique” religious obligations unfairly by not providing wash-basins, a prayer-space and multiple extra breaks, or that despite its dangerous machinery it must accommodate women wrapped in bags as employees–is one step further in the jihad, one more piece of waqf. Hell, we even fly the splodeydope body parts back from foreign lands to bury in Muslim cemetaries on our soil (one more piece of waqf).
Merry Christmas!
Ah, Nathan – it’s bitter medicine we’re offering, and to friends. Maybe a spoonful of sugar might make it go down?
Since you seem to like Kipling so much:
” For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!”
Zane
Some needed commentary re the rioting.
Everyone here should read “Gates of Vienna” blog on a daily basis.
Regarding the British: Lots of comment in London press and British blogs comparing Brown’s Britain with Thatcher’s; and asking if a much changed society has the grit (or “sand” as one put it) to gird their loins for the long haul. Ties in with Zane’s comments about the increasing Islamification of England. But very little criticism in the press or blogs of the troops themselves–mainly of the perfidious politicians and the incompetent generals–the politicians for failing to fund/provide proper equipment and the generals for poor leadership and tactics/strategy/planning.
None of my buddies think much about the British Military, let alone the British press for that matter, but this caught my eye:
The article reads: “Trust in the British had fallen so low that neither the Iraqi nor the US government was willing to give us much notice of the operation. General Mohammed Jawad Humeidi remarked that his forces battled for a week before receiving British support. He rubbed salt in the wound by noting that for five years the Mahdi Army had “ruled Basra without being punished or held to account”, and had during that time controlled ports, oil, electricity and government agencies, whose funds bought them weapons. ”
Back in April, the British Military was claiming that they were playing a major role in that particular operation in Basra (which actually was only “pruning bushes” to set the stage for more operations and negotiating tactics, but never mind).
A friend of mine in the 14th Infantry, however, confirmed my suspicions that the Brits were bullsh1tting [as usual]. The article is only interesting to me in that the British author admits that the operation had nothing to do with the British Army.
http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2008/04/men-in-black-vanish-and-people-emerge.html
“Tommy” arrogance in claiming battlefield glories not their own is nothing new in OEF and OIF. Virtually EVERY unit on EVERY level of command in EVERY service has their own story about the British cowardice, chutzpah and/or self-glorification at our expense.
The article thinks it’s news that US grunts and brass are irritated with the Brits. Hell, if you’ve ever talked to some of our staff officers, you’d know they were irritated long before Basra, going back to when Brit General Jackson gave self-righteous press releases about heroically “preventing World War 3″ after his fiasco at the airport in Pristina (it goes back WAY further than that of course).
That leads me to one big question:
Lex, assuming that you’ve had even a TERTIARY experience with personnel and operations in the current war, let alone actually been involved in OEF and OIF, WHERE do you get the impression that US Military personnel want, let alone need, British military input?
Rykehaven, my direct support for the war effort ended when my ship left the Gulf after major combat operations concluded in 2003. Until last summer I had an indirect role, some it supporting deploying Marine MEUs, but mostly supporting aircraft carriers and strike groups providing fires ashore.
Is that TERTIARY experience?
I don’t know, never ran across the term in my thirty years in uniform. If it is, maybe you can ease me down gently. I bruise ever so easily.
When I said that “we” need the Brits, I didn’t mean the US military so much. We’re pretty good about breaking up other peoples’ gear, and have become relatively quick studies at helping them put it back together again. But the application of military power has a moral aspect, and having allies like the Brits, even at their most routinely condescending – not to mention others in the Anglosphere – is important to sustaining our strategic center of gravity. You know what that is, right?
It’s “cleaner” and doubtless more efficient to stand alone. Unsustainable in a democracy, however.
Lex said: “Until last summer I had an indirect role, some it supporting deploying Marine MEUs, but mostly supporting aircraft carriers and strike groups providing fires ashore.”
MEU’s huh? A little advice on topic: Ask some marine buddies (if you have any) in the 26th MEU or somebody in MarSOC (I don’t know anyone in that outfit) about why they were expelled from Afghanistan.
I am tired of hearing blogging prima-donnas complaining about Afghanistan and “why isn’t there a surge in Afghanistan?!” (as if they knew what the surge was).
I’m also tired about people insisting that the “allies” and the Brits are part of the solution by demanding more NATO troops for squatting jobs and “peacekeeping”.
I guarantee you I’m not the only one.
Lex said: “But the application of military power has a moral aspect, and having allies like the Brits, even at their most routinely condescending – not to mention others in the Anglosphere – is important to sustaining our strategic center of gravity. You know what that is, right?”
No Dice; I’m not biting.
You weren’t talking about US influence in Australasia, economic leverage in the European Union, or futile attempts to assuage liberal sensibilities about multilateral morality.
However, you WERE talking about the British military effectiveness in OEF and OIF or, as you stated:
“fighting spirit of the British Tommy has perhaps been equaled, but never excelled.”
and
“whether the people of Britain have the sand to support the soldiers their government puts on the field.
I hope so. We need them.”
Part of the reason the Brits wanted the Marines out of Afghanistan was that the leathernecks refused to “coordinate” with them, meaning that the Marines refused to give the Brits a veto over combat operations and invite them into the planning process and mission briefs.
That, and they knew the marines were going to embaress them by going after the Taliban whom they’d been accomodating (and were still committed to accomodating) in Helmand.
The rest of the story is perhaps the most dishonorable bouts of treachery coming out of OEF: lobbying US and Afghan political and military leaders to remove the marines and anonymous press release leakage by the British Military in Afghanistan to finish the stab-in-the-by trying to label the marines as murderers.
But then, you have so much experience and tertiary (in this context, “peripheral”) contact with our military, this must old-hat for you…
RIGHT?
And for those people who are scandalized by the fact that the Marines would prevent the Brits from obstructing their operations or informing British friends in the Taliban…
GET USED TO IT.
The word throughout the US military these days is to freeze out British (not just British) involvement as much as possible. Basra is noted only for its visibility in the press. The British were being marginalized in Iraq as early as 2005 (possibly earlier, but my part had to do with the ITs and SIPRNET). Most of it is NOT a result of policy changes from on-high or direct orders. It’s more of a change in command climate and it’s happened for many reasons.
Some of it is practical and the success can be seen in Basra (again, to use a publicly visible example).
Some of it is (justifiably) bruised egos. You can’t leak to the press that an American COs troops are blunderers, savages and murderers. You can’t go behind his back and politick against him and his men, then expect other COs to invite you to the Ops/Intel Briefs. You CERTAINLY can’t expect to be involved in the decision-making process where the lives of American servicemen and national security are at stake.
PERIOD.
Lex said: “It’s “cleaner” and doubtless more efficient to stand alone. Unsustainable in a democracy, however.”
What does letting a foreign power exert undue influence on the lives and reputation of loyal American soldiers have to do with frickin’ “democracy”?
GROW A PAIR.
Let me be the first to officially confirm the presence of a keyboard anal oriface with a hyperinflated opinion of himself. Not that the good folks of regular visitation haven’t already identified that fact. As far as growing a pair, I suspect you wouldn’t have one save two should the opportunity to express yourself to the host face to face, junior. Just sayin’.
(ad hominem intentional).
You know, Rykehaven, I don’t believe that you and I are going to be able to conduct a mutually profitable exchange of views.
I don’t intersperse my commentary with block capitals, since I don’t believe that self-indulgent displays of emotionally fraught “authenticity” are particularly persuasive. I see far too much of that on the other side of the argument.
I habitually decline to rebut strawman arguments in response to assertions that I never made. In other words, I rapidly tire of those who cannot be bothered to read the fucking post.
I also quickly weary of those who run racing around the blogosphere looking for reasons to be offended. Whatever it is that they have “got” is beyond my capacity to heal. Or if not, it is decidedly beyond my patience. Life’s too short to wrestle with pigs.
Penultimately, I find that jingoistic simpletons, geopolitical naifs and black/white reductionists make dreary conversationalists.
And in closing, I’ve no desire whatsoever to engage in online dick measuring contests, motive questioning bouts, ad hominem attacks or battle scar comparisons with each and every anonymous, self-important enthusiast that wanders by with a case of the ass.
So, bye.
I would have had my $0.02 to insert here, but Lex has pretty much transcended anything else to be said on the matter at hand.
The actions of Mr. Rykehaven are beyond the blog pale, however. Some of what he had to say was accurate, but said in a very mocking condescending manner. It was at best , however, tangential to the subject.
Lex is a reasonable man (said as one who had a post edited), and he is the owner and has the right to edit whom he wishes, or ban whom he wishes. And, frankly, given Lex’s normally measured rhetoric, as observed on this blog, the above post seems to be from the fingers of a man severely provoked. With good reason, methinks.
If the last line means the death penalty for Mr. Rykehaven, then allow me to borrow one line from the aforementioned Mr. Kipling (and with deepest apologies) “chuck ‘im out, the brute.”
It is sad, however, to see the British people continue the long slide that began with the Boer War. The line soldier is not the problem with the Brits, but the senior political and military leadership. They are idiots and unworthy of the valor of their men.
Jeebus, Rykehaven,
Do you always take a dump in the foyer when you first enter someone’s home? I mean, I understand that humility and civil discourse seems to be anathema to your body of work, but golly gee…
Reminds me of the good sergeant’s admonishment to “Lighten up, Francis.”
Rykehaven,
‘Tis the season to be jolly, ya know?
Blog less, drink more, spread peace and goodwill to all men, and all such concomitant stuff.
And…….. for the love of dog, get some buddies with better conversation than the state of the British media.
Really, it’s time for an upgrade.
Lex, once upon a time I did a stretch working on a ‘letters to the editor’ page of a big daily newspaper, and, alas, at least 90 per cent of the letters were full of CAPITAL LETTERS and copious underlinings, often both.
Naturally, they were hand-written in green ink, with notes in purple, and ran to an average of 12 pages, neatly held together with a knot of twine.
Without exception, they were written by self-proclaimed experts and geniuses with more time to hand than the laws of probability would otherwise suggest.
Indy,
I would hazard a guess that the majority began with the words: “I am appalled…”
Thankless work, that.
Tim,
The most predictable of all were those which began “I’m not a racist, but…..”
They’d be followed a few thou words of inchoate bigotry and hatred.
My favorite crackpots were the conspiracy theorists, especially the ones with fake moonshot/Area51/One World Government fantasies.
At least they were entertaining.
Indy,
Are you saying we didn’t go to the moon, there is no area 51, and there is a one world government, even before the time predicted by the book of Revelation? Do you have proof of this?
I would put that in green with purple underlining, but I’m too much of a klutz with html. So, for the safety of the blog, Lex Rex’s territory, I shall refrain lest I be placed under the interdict.
QM,
Um, no, I’m pretty sure the moonshots were real (I was only one at the time, but even so I accept the story).
Equally sure that whatever happens at Area 51, little green men are not part of proceedings.
As for the One World Government crowd, it’s startlingly obvious that conspiracy whackos haven’t met any politicians. If they did, then they’d know that none of their political masters, neither individually nor collectively, are capable of such geopolitical engineering.
It was the letter writers who espoused all this drivel, not moi.
Indy, I _am_ somewhat of a racist, like most people. What’s funny about that is that for two Sundays in a row now, I have attended an Anglican missionary church run by people in Rwanda, to save the souls of us benighted white heathen folks.
That would be http://theamia.org
I wonder, is my Bishop a Tutsi, or a Hutu?
“Do you always take a dump in the foyer when you first enter someone’s home?”
LOL–comes under the label of: “Wish I’d thought of/said that!”
What Cap’n Lex said at comment number ten is right irrefutable. And magnificent. And I wanna quote that, when I get into a dispute.
Slap ‘em silly with words, yep, Lex did that.
I’m not certain why, but Rykehaven reminds me of when the movies Top Gun, Sniper, and Navy Seals came out. For several months after I’d find myself in some social interaction, like playing a friendly game of pool at the local watering hole, and sure enough the opponent would casually interject into the conversation that he was a member of the teams, or a Marine sniper, or just starting his Naval pilots training.
Such vital assets to our defense of home and hearth, playing pool at 10pm in a biker bar somewhere in the Midwest. Probably all a part of their cover story, I’m sure.
Calling them wannabee’s didn’t quite convey the image I had of them.
Finally settled on “master of hand-to-gland combat.” Because, near as I could tell, the only benefit making these claims had was towards self-gratification.
Which, regarding Rykehaven, Lex pretty much showed the man was out of his depth anywhere the sidewalk was wet.
So, Rykehaven? Go forth and conquer — the adults have matters of grave import to discuss and we fear you’d only become frightfully confused. There’s a good lad.
I know it’s a Parthian shot (look it up!) as Rykehaven cannot respond, but I just couldn’t resist the telling of my new name for these souls.
– Max
Max, I sure hope my very brief roar of laughter doesn’t wake the wife up: “master of hand-to-gland combat.” I’ll have to remember that, know a few of the type myself.
Methinks such types may have their hands otherwise occupied – at least one at a time.
Was it not the former Highland regiment that had a bayonet charge back in 2005? Not all potential for valor is lost.
There’s a lot to be said for and against how the Brits play in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They’ve got their goods and others. A lot of what equates to hesitancy or worse is their troops being thrown into combat pitifully ill equipped, and with the full knowledge that their chain of command won’t/WON’T back them up. In a military that doesn’t fight, politics is the route to the top, and their military certainly has skilled politicians at the top.
It’s regrettable, because this is a war against the West, and the combatants are nearly all the heirs of English-speaking justice (look that title up). They do need us, and we need them.
These trolls like Ryke are lower than a form of internet dung beetle- they are turd lice.
VX, re: your comment at #5–I hadn’t read anything at GoV on Malmo until today, amazed at how similar our takes were.
I’m certainly glad I bumbled-stumbled onto Lex’s blog. Thought it nifty to eat my sammich, and read an aviator’s view of the current crapola swirling around us, and not be hamstrung by the limits of the uniform. But lo, the vitriolic vituperation of some of these posts is downright depressing. Some need to get a life.
But back to the Brits – while enjoying a Bombay and tonic a retired Royal Navy senior told me before the election that the Brits were pulling hard for Obama. Once in office and the Iraqi retreat – ugh withdrawal (no sexual connotation) completed, the world-wide US presence would take a dramatic downturn, and give the Brits a chance to once again stand tall on the world’s stage. Rule Britannia!
Phase One: complete.
I was reading a commentary on another site yesterday by an English ex-pat who returned after a 10 year+ absence who stated that the country had become almost unrecognizable–not only from the influx of Moslem immigrants–as bad as that was–but also at the general levels of violence, public drunkenness and utter lack of civility demonstrated by the nation’s “youts” quite unlike anything with which he had previously been familiar. Also commented upon were the previously unknown levels of filth and trash in evidence in the streets and parks, etc., and the degradation of public services in general. Definitely not the England of yore–or the one he (and I) had known. (Seems a great example of the quickening pace of the workings-out of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.)
Zane/
GoV entertains writings quite often by a guy with the handle of Fjordman. He used to have his own site under that name when he lived up in Scandinavia and he was writing about the trends in Malmo as far back as 2004 when I first started visiting his site. The guy is tuned-in to the Nordic scene and the encroaching presence of the Moslem population–and the head-in-sand approach taken by the PC political class– big time.
Zane,
The British are notorious for logistic difficulties so the bayonet charge was probably due to a terrible shortage of the proper ammo.
The Brits gave up on standing tall when they came back west of Suez. They will never stand tall again because they accepted weakness in themselves, and no longer have an sort of civilizational stamina, or sense of being what they were. When they came west of Suez, they came to stay. They have fed like ticks from our strength in hopes of looking like they have some consequence.
As I said in another post, they are a people unworthy of the valor of their soldiers.
I mt 4 Brits in the US while was working for Ohio DOT. A contractor was having problems getting American Contractors to build his prestressed concrete salt domes correctly, so imported some of his people from Britain to show the rebel colonials how it was done. Their wives hooked with my wife, and they were taught the corrupt spending ways of American Wives, and proved they were flexible readily adaptable (Lex should be glad he has only the Hobbit and Kat to worry about). The boss of the crew told me about $50 work gloves from Wal-Mart. I hesitated at that, but then the light bulb went on and I asked if they were accompanied by their wives. You know the answer.
Leastways, the guys and I labored during the days on salt storage and talked politics, American and British. It was bad, very bad, in 1998. I told them it might be better if they emigrated as the man who imported them would gladly, I was sure, sponsor them.
Sadly, they couldn’t bring themselves to do it. They knew they would be much freer here, but the pull of home was just too strong.
Frog, meet pot. They knew the flame as being turned up, though. Just couldn’t bring themselves to jump