You’ll remember that Blue Angel #6, Kevin “Kojack” Davis augered in two years ago this April. At the time I privately surmised that he’d lost SA or even consciousness due to an over-G in his final rendezvous turn. I never read the mishap report – and if I had, I’d never have shared it – but this article from the Beaufort Gazette seems to confirm my suspicions:
The Navy hopes changes in the way Blue Angels train will help prevent crashes like the one that killed Lt. Cmdr. Kevin Davis in Burton two years ago.
Instituted in December, the new G-Tolerance Training Program is designed to help Blue Angel pilots withstand the physical and mental rigors of performing aerial maneuvers that can multiply normal gravitational forces.
Effects caused by those forces are believed to have caused the April 2007 crash that killed Davis.
In the last maneuver of the Blue Angels’ performance at the 2007 Beaufort Air Show at the Marine Corps Air Station, Davis was trailing the other pilots and accelerated to more than 425 mph. Investigators said the sudden force caused him to lose awareness of his speed and altitude.
Centrifuge training is a good start, especially if the Blues are going to stick to their “g-suits interfere with the flight controls” story – I’ve always harbored a sneaking suspicion that it had something to do with aesthetics, myself. But resting g-tolerance varies day by day and the one to two g’s extra protection a well fitted g-suit can offer the pilot of a high performance jet aircraft could make the difference between a good story and a very bad day.
Even once is too many times, and it’s happened more than once.
Lex, show us how it’s done–post your centrifuge video.
We’ll be laughing with you, not at you.
If “g-suits interfere with the flight controls” then someone has been mis-designing the cockpits of fighter planes for quite some time now.
If it’s the aesthetics thing, get the bloody suit dyed an appropriate color.
I’ve always thought that the g-suit thing was more about appearances than anything. If the blues wanted a g-suit without an upper thigh bladder that wouldn’t affect flying qualities, Mama Nav (or her “friend” Lock-mart) would make six in about 14 seconds.
Ironically, the Thundercluckers wear g-suits and barely do anything that is over 2 g’s (as far as I can tell – they don’t come below about 2500′ in their show, so who knows)
It is a sad video to watch on youtube. Kevin was smoking making that last turn so he didn’t get sucked and you can see the nose fall thru the horizon. Makes your heart ache. As ambassadors of Naval Aviation, I think that Safety should be their number one goal – “yeah, we’re Sierra Hotel sticks, but we’re safe bug drivers”. A relative of a good friend had to escort Kevin’s wife out of the reviewing area and he said it was worse than cutting off his right arm. We don’t need another one – ever.
One would imagine that the ‘Blues’ know what they need by now.
Sounds like a good opportunity to review the G-suit and the layout of the cockpit to me. There’s been a great advance in materials since the G-suit was invented. As an example there are materials that contract when a small electric charge is passed through them. Might cost a bit more money, but a G-suit you put on like a set of long johns and which squeezes more uniformly might have an edge over what we’re wearing now.
Likewise, with new aircraft being fly-by-wire there is something to be said for placing the controls on the seat. Get that stick right into your lap. Rudders and brakes forward where they belong, but with a cover over the feet like a western-style stirrup. Upon eject, the pilots legs are retracted to flat against the seat. That part would take a little work, but you’d never leave your knees on the instrument panel.
These ideas have probably already been considered and rejected for cause, I’m merely pointing out that every time there’s a review for safety, take a look at the whole system.
– Max
Spaz,
True, but then sometimes it’s hard to get a hold on other opinions when your ego doesn’t let anything else in the room. The Blues, I mean.
That’s not meant to be offensive, just a personal observation over many years. You don’t get to fly a blue jet without having a major ego, and most folks learn how to keep it in check, most of the time.
But complacency is the worst enemy of any aviator, and when you reach the point that you are doing things because you have always done them that way, and you have difficulties adjusting/accepting new ideas because they don’t fit with tradition, then perhaps it’s time to take another look at things with someone else’s eyeballs.
Not a dig at the Blues, just one man’s opinion, fwiw.
Respects,
AW1Tim: Don’t know if any mods were made to Blues Hornets, however in the past they have had the sense to modify the Skyhawk for their purposes. We can conjecture about their egos but their clout surely means they get what they need.
New design/G-suits sound like a good idea. I think Swiss invented a water powered model for example.
The Hornet Blues may be the last manned aero team? Who said ‘UAVs forever’.
Spaz,
The Blue jets are actually lighter and faster than a fleet F/A-18. They have a highly polished surface, and according to those who fly them, take a little getting used to because they are so “slick”. Nothing hanging off them, etc.
respects,
MAX:
Problem is–and I would guess the Blues are no exception–in terms of the seat and ejection, every-time ACT was practiced in my era everybody loosened their straps/harness to the max to be able to move around to eyeball–course was largely a wasted effort in the F-4 with its SUPERGOOD-360 visual sight-lines. (heh)
(Funny, tho, not so much of the harness loosening in Vietnam as everyone pretty much kept their mach up and contemplated that almost every ejection would therefore be hi-speed)
AW1Tim:
Speaking of highly polished. there is a GREAT story found in “The 100 Greatest True Stories of WWII” (You’ll have to go to Lib of Congress or get my own copy–a rare book looonnggg out of print.) about a Marine F4U Corsair land-based pilot who waxed the leading edges with shoe polish to gain the extra bit–was trapped by 2 Zeros on the deck but outran them just enough with full mil/H2o injection to make unexpected 180 which caused Zero nearest turn to catch tip of wing in water trying to make the angle and he left the far side guy in dust as he headed for home (they had him trapped going AWAY from base and running out of fuel.) He attributed the extra bit of airspeed above the TO to the waxing–believed it saved his life.
The Flight Demonstration aircraft are indeed modified (smoke oil tank instead of a gun, fuel cell baffles for sustained inverted flight, VOR/ILS, stick springs, smoke generation system, etc.). Some of these were carry overs from the A-4 experiences/learning curves, some were unique to the Hornet. Now they are modifying their new C/D models as they transition away from the A/B versions (T/M/S differences will be mostly transparent to the casual airshow observer).
“…about a Marine F4U Corsair land-based pilot who waxed the leading edges with shoe polish…”
Leave it to a jarhead to spitshine his airplane.
bc,
If I remember correctly, the spring support on the stick was one of the reasoning the Blues gave for not wearing G-suits… something about the possibility of snagging the stick because of the springs, etc. I can’t remember off the top of my head, but that strikes a chord with me…
Kojak
Once a Ripper, always a Ripper.
Here’s to us…
On the one hand, appearance is important for the recruiting mission. On the other hand, if you want a G-sponge of a pilot, you look for plump shortish guys with borderline hypertension, then issue them G-suits.
I just hope the centrifuge training works.
Oh, Max…most of the 4th generation tactical aircraft have pretty good ejection seats. Garters to reel in your legs, etc. The weakest point is the hand pulling the handle.
The basic issue (to reiterate what has been posted in the past) is that the pilot holds the control stick with the forearm resting on the thigh; when the thigh bladders inflate to squeeze the blood into the torso, they cause the arm to deflect, resulting in an unintended control input. Having flown in formation (but not at the controls) I’ve seen how close aircraft can get, and my recollection of cockpit Blues videos is that they are quite a bit closer, so I wouldn’t want to have to fight the suit in the diamond. The tradeoff with a “Half” G-suit is that it wouldn’t provide the same protection since it couldn’t prevent the g-forces pooling blood in the thighs.
What I am curious about is the comparable g-force exposure level between the Blues and a typical Fleet F-18 squadron, both in intensity (number of gs per pull) and frequency (pulls per flight, flights per week). I would expect it would be harder to justify flying without a suit if the fleet sees just as much exertion with a comparable rate of G-LOC.
Max, interesting thought on the G-suits; I don’t know if it’s ever been considered.
I believe ejection seats have had straps to secure the legs for at least 30 years; I’ve heard British seats even secure their occupant’s arms when activated.
As far as the stick on the seat, I wouldn’t like it there, since I don’t think I’d get enough play when pulling back to feel how the aircraft is responding. IIRC, the first F-16 test flights had the pilots complaining about the sidestick controllers because there was no feedback in either increased pull effort as the g’s increased or in vibration as the aircraft approached a stall. Those mechanisms were added later and have become a standard requirement for fly-by-wire systems. But the sidestick controller may provide for better control and comfort during hi-g maneuvering.
Cap’n, you’ve flown both aircraft; any preferences?
Craig, nice one!
So if a thigh bladder might cause the arm resting upon it to involuntarily move, thus moving the stick…. then just do a thigh-bladder bypass. Rig it so the right (are lefties acceptable to the Blues?) thigh bladder never inflates, but the other four or so bladders do inflate. It’s not blood pooling, it is loss of blood to the brain that is the real problem. 4 out of 5 bladders pushing blood to the brain are better than no bladders under any Gs.
But all this is a theoretical waste and poppycock. As lex hints, it’s really about tradition and aesthetics.
Regarding side-stick, center stick, yoke, ropes and pulleys, or whatever…. technology has for some time existed to provide any placement and pilot feedback desired, despite the mechanical mechanism that ultimately meets the ham-fist. The transitions to different “sticks” is relatively easy. Thankfully, they do accomplish a lot of human factors engineering these days in design and test engineering.
Em, I dunno Bruce. Although it’s been a long time (far too long) since I’ve held an FA-18 stick in my hand, I’m pretty sure that resting my forearm on my (g-suited) thigh would have resulted in me gripping the stick well below the grip. Like several inches. And as for theorizing that it might bump the stick from side to side, the bladders were atop and below the thigh – zippers on the side.
With the exception of the solo maneuvers, the formation flight is flown at relatively low g, ordinarily. Two to four max I should think. Wouldn’t ordinarily need a g-suit on a good day.
As for the F-16, I noticed that when you got to about 6-7 g’s and started to really perform your anti-g straining maneuvers (tightening abs and legs while making a glottal “hook!” sound) there was a tendency to pull back on the stick, adding another g or so – not good.
And then, when I was first flying it, after a fight, I’d drop the stick to take some notes on my kneeboard. Every once in a while I’d finish my notes, check to see my wingman was in position and reach between my legs to grab the stick. There was always a momentary shot of terror when I couldn’t find one there, before remembering it was a sidestick aircraft.
Not that my G-experience counts for anything, but it seems to me that the ability to load-up quickly is more of a factor than sustained G. From my recollection, pulling 4-4.5 in TA-4 was uncomfortable, but very doable. It didn’t feel that uncomfortable in the F-16N until about 7G, but I never loaded up fast in that seat. The F-18, by contrast, could load up real fast, as theVFA-106 drivers in the front never tired of trying to put the rider to sleep.
To address a couple of points made (and I’m an engineer, so I’m obligated to argue the merits of the ideas), the point of the G-suit is to constrict the legs and gut to keep blood in the upper torso and brain. The water and air-based contraptions do a good job, a constricting fabric item might do better, but if that suit is a point of contact to the flight controls then automatic movements in that area are reflected in flight control inputs.
Look at a good marksman some day. He’s all cinched up in his jacket, arm sling, rifle into his shoulder and lying nice and prone. There is not an ounce of muscle between him and a hard point on the ground or on the rifle. He’s laying on his joint bones, his jacket isolates muscle from the rifle, the sling takes all the strain of holding the rifle. You could lift the butt of that rifle up, load 5 rounds for him, and set it back and he’d still be at the same point of aim. He’s doing this to avoid having even his pulse affect the point of aim.
I think that’s the kind of precision the Blue’s are trying to accomplish, which with rudders and stick and throttle to move about presents a very dynamic environment to maintain precision in. A conventional G-suit isn’t likely to help them much, and may in fact interfere. Heck, armrests fitted to the seat may be worthwhile.
But with materials that can be as tight as the skin and with 5vdc lock into a fixed position, upon sensing 2g’s we can apply the voltage and suddenly there’s no expansion room in the thighs or calves or feet for that blood to go. We don’t squeeze it back to the heart, we give it nowhere to go from the heart.
As a side benfit, this same suit will also let out-of-shape pilots look great at parties and can be worn under the standard dress uniform with a power supply tucked into the front waistband below the belt buckle.
*Geeze!* I’m *kidding* on that one!
Everybody knows the power supply goes into the socks on the inside pant leg, where the extra mass will not unduly affect slow dancing. Were the pilot capable of fast dancing he wouldn’t need to wear the suit to a party in the first place.
I *still* think placing control elements on the ejection seat has a certain merit. As Lex has pointed out and we’ve all experienced when transitioning from one car to another, controls in a non-standard place give us a second or two of cognitive dissonance. We trade in a stick for an automatic and we instinctively reach low right to shift into reverse, then have to take a second, slip our mental cluch, and remember we shift on the column now. Same with washers and wipers and lights, every manufacturer places them somewhere different. And did I mention the flippin’ gas tank spout is on the left on some cars, right on others, so whenever I go to fill I’m either back-to-back with another car or face-to-face with him and have to wait to exit?
A common control layout can be achieved from simulator to trainer to bomber or fighter or airliner by using the seat as a mount for the fly-by-wire controls. If you have to eject, nothing says all those controls have to go with you. But the seat, not the cockpit, should be the safety cage for the pilot to ensure upon ejection we’ve a complete and functional asset capable of coming back.
– Max
Nearly ploughed into Nowra Hill by pulling 6 G at low level (under cloud) in an authorised demo 600 KIAS (almost) flyby the tower in an A4G. However I had not been at low level pulling Gs for a long time (but had been pulling similar G at medium level). What I did not anticpate quickly enough (whilst wearing a G suit) was the rapid onset of the G at low level. I got caught in a grey out only thank goodness, so that in the worst of it I could see the horizon and not have to go UP into the cloud and then perhaps become disoriented.
My point is that I had experience but just was not a split second quicker to anticipate the G onset (at this lower level).
The A4 had a tendency to ‘tuck the nose’ into the turn thus increasing the G onset at low level (as a way to explain it) much faster. This tendency was also more pronounced at low level than at medium level (where most of my recent high G had been experienced). YEP I was not experienced enough but after that I was!
Onlookers liked the aircraft disappearing in a vapour cloud under the cloud (little did they know I was in my own cloud). “Hey you – get offa my cloud” Rolling Stones.
G-LOC explained (not by me):
http://aeromedical.org/Articles/g-loc.html
SpazSinbad,
Worth adding that the little underpowered TA-4J I got chauffeured around in has nothing on the Aussie A-4Gs, which IIRC has essentially a Hornet engine. A zoomy little jet, indeed!
Until you posted that after his death, I had no idea the Blues didn’t wear g-suits. Oddly enough, I’ve seen them enough spending my formative years in Pensacola, watched them climb into the cockpit enough times, but that didn’t register until your post.
Something has to be done. Granted, it was an unfortunate accident dealing with one, but that’s how changes are made. There will be people in the current community who scream and shout that they are fine, but once some change is made, the next generation will never know the difference.
One crash and death, negates all the positive publicity that was garnered by looking pretty cool without out. And this is 2009, I can’t believe that a gsuit can’t be created that doesn’t interfere so much. Someone just has to think.
Dad played pipes at his funeral. My sister’s wedding reception was at the Oclub the same day. As we left that evening, saying good bye to the couple, there sat the lone motorcycle of LCDR Davis. It was gut wrenching… and we weren’t family.
Zane: It would have been nice to have the 11,200 candle but the A4G had the 9,300 lb job. The aircraft was clean (unusual) with a light fuel load to facilitate what was an ad hoc display (in poor weather – cloud base low – only room for high speed, high G turn past tower) for a visiting Indonesian General (Indonesia was getting Skyhawks also in that early 1970s time frame).
I was used to NOT wearing Gsuits in older aircraft like Vampire/Sea Venom which could briefly go to 6 Gs before running out of puff (the aircraft that is).
The A4G was at ‘flat chat’ for some time to flyby the tower (that was the last thing I remember). No – just kidding Chief.
My response to G onset was probably slightly delayed by the unusual circumstances.
My point I hope is that even with experience and training etc. the sudden onset of high G caught me out – slightly. Enough for it to be almost a problem. It may not be clear that the G suit itself has a lag to its actuation, especially in sudden G environments. A pilot needs to assume there is NO G suit, and act accordingly. If the G suit works – OK.
Bou: IMHO perhaps a suitable modified G suit can be found for the Blues. However it seems to me they do not want the G suit for their safety in very close formation. The Blues know what they need.
SpazSinbad- All the more reason that if something is created for them, the Blues are INVOLVED in the process. I’ve been on the design end for military aircraft for 20 years. Take maintenance crews and pilots into account, listen to what they say, and usually something good can come of it.
But hey, I have no dog in this race. I’m just a spectator like everyone else.
AW1, two points:
1. Blue’s Hornets are “slick” not because they are polished well, but because they have nothing on the wing. No tanks, CATMS/AIMS, MERS/TERS, no FLIR, etc. Anything on the wing raises the drag count and hurts performance on a jet whose design performance is a handicap to begin with. (I put the last bit in so B2 wouldn’t have to…)
2. In my short and in-illustrious career, I’ve known several guys who used to fly with, were flying with, or eventually flew with the Blues, I have not found them to have egos any bigger than anyone else – so I have to disagree with you on that point.
Tim, also, the “spring” is not really a spring, but an adjustment to the “feel” bungee in the flight control system. It loads the stick so it takes a few pounds of pressure to maintain neutral. They do that so there is no slop around the neutral point, the better to have “feel” when flying in close.
A buddy of mine, an F-14 pilot, got a chance opportunity to ride in the backseat for a practice demo at an airshow – he was in the 7 jet flying in the slot position. Said that he didn’t much like 2 & 3′s wingtips right over his head…
Huh. My recollection from photos/video (Carrier being the last one) is that the stick was shorter than that, and resting the forearm on the thigh would cause a left roll input as the bladder inflates.
Maybe I just keep my seat up at the stops so as to look over the rails.
Max, an electric girdle? What will they think of next?
I like the idea of multiple standards to allow for both personal preference as well as innovation. Having driven stick, auto with the control on the floor, and (currently) auto with the control on the column, I haven’t had much of a problem in the transition. Any confusion is momentary, and disappears quickly as I gain experience. Of course, you don’t shift while moving (except in stick or “semi-auto” [automatics that allow manual shifting]) so there is quite a difference from moving the steering wheel. And yeah, jockeying at the gas station is a pain, but that’s the tradeoff with having a choice.
Besides (to segue to a previous thread), who wants to live in a Mac-only world? If Apple would build an iPhone-type iMac, I’d give them another look, but AFAIK the only laptops that use the display for both input and output are the TabletPCs, which I find really useful. Unfortunately, Windows seems to be the only OS that makes effective use of that technology. I’ve been looking at Linux, and while they do have support for tablets, you need to manually install the drivers, the software to recognize the text/graphics drawn on the screen aren’t nearly as well developed, and few applications make use of it. Fiddling under the hood is not something I have a problem with, but it definitely limits Linux’ market share with the professionals who use Tablets (Yeah, I know Tablets are a niche market, but I have to wonder why. They aren’t that hard to use, I haven’t seen Tablets costing any more than other laptops, and are small enough to be comfortable holding and writing on).
A long time ago a friend of mine who was in the Blues and just learning his craft in A-4′s invited me to sit in/view the cockpit and look at the instruments- Didn’t look like the arrangement in a standard TA-4J at all. What I saw were all custom specially calibrated jobs ( huge clock) and in different positions than I had seen before. All were individually positioned on the panel for his personal scan and his scan only. I asked about the lack o’g-suit and he described the need for feel. I can’t remember more than that .
Of course that was a Skyhawk. I ‘m probably way off base transferring all that to the Hornet.
Feeling G’s and accepting what you feel seems to be important to the Blues from their perspective. Any interference wiith that natural “feel” affects their performance. Performance as in airshow performance- not performance as in evading a flying telephone pole or manuevering for a gun solution.
Perhaps g-suit use , irrespective of the clearance issues discussed, may slightly impede that tactile feel/feedback g-loading gives and possibly create a more hazardous situation for an airshow performer?
IM, peanut gallery O, high performance airshow flying is totally unlike A-A combat Lex describes so well in support of G-suits. It’s life or death if you can’t pull enough..in airshows it’s different it seems. Air combat and high performance airshow flying seem to both be “fruit” but different types- apples and grapefruits let’s say.
b2
Nose said:
… I have not found them to have egos any bigger than anyone else…
*snort* There are a couple interesting ways to look at that statement/truth… depending on whether “anyone else” means simply “any other pilots.” I’ll just add that at the USO I can usually spot a pilot by the way he walks in the door.
And if not that, I’ll know within about 5 seconds of talking to him.
/smartmouth
I could see having a special set of G-not-quite-suits made….consisting only of the lower leg bladders. My (admittedly limited) experience has been that you want the calf bladders to inflate first. Kind of like squeezing a toothpaste tube from the bottom.
This is not a new problem with the Blues…a lunch buddy of mine was on the team in the early 60′s and as #6 experienced black out a couple of times…he was moved to #2 and never experienced the problem again.
The article is flawed. The writer is wrong about the airspace, wrong about Kojack G-LOCing and wrong about the show sequence. There was also a comment about someone escorting Kojack’s wife from show center. Kojack was not married.