Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
Has the vid been posted anywhere so we can decide if the action was appropriate?
Some of the BS we used to do at sales meetings was probably similar. Of course one day we crossed a line and somebody got offended and the fun ended forever. But nobody’s career was ended or damaged.
I suppose it is all well and good and from what I recall the guys should have known better (or picked a better target).
“..given a punitive letter of reprimand, which could keep him from advancing..”
Ahhhhh, the rules of the game. Don’t make waves. Be P.C. to a fault. Make sure you keep Preparation H on the nose to prevent inflaming the superior brown pucker spot. I think the “sense” has gone out of “sensitivity” training. Stuff that used to result in “knock that sh*t off” now kills a career. Its a different world (Navy, military) these days and I’m not sure I’d fit in it.
(Left unsaid is I’m not sure I fit in when I was in, but I managed to get out honorably, and at least we didn’t suffer much from rampant PC syndrome.)
It’s a new Navy (and Marine Corps), and good or bad, these changes are not going to go away.
I like the way that Fo’c’sle Follies got canceled for the remainder of the cruise, that will build morale.
One of those, “The floggings will continue until morale improves” kinds of things.
As a former CMEO, I’d hate to be that CMEO.
Word is there is a new verb being used amongst the folks in the Air Wing.
These fellers got franked for sure!
How long before recruiting suffers? This stuff does make it back home.
I’m like Phib, however, I want to see the film. I have a feeling they whole thing is completely overblown.
No, things aren’t going to change back. The law of entropy is certainly at work in the US military. The main reason I don’t advise any young man do hitch when he needs to sort out what he wants to do with his life. The risk of suffering from some idiocy is simply too high, and sane people have better things to do.
Here’s a video from the Follies in 2007. Pretty funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yj23YQ22Vqk
Well, I’m like JoeC. I didn’t fit in even back pre-PC days. When I left some might say it was one step ahead of the posse, but the cant and hypocrisy was pretty thick even then in the mid-60s-early 70s–especially in the USAF. And it really didn’t matter if one had a string of solid unbroken all-9 OERs. One wrong word before the wrong person…career over.
Of course military life in the US Armed Services has ALWAYS been like that to some extent–but with the services awash in PC there’s almost no room for error. Not like that in most other nation’s services to the same degree. I once read someplace that the difference between us and the most of the rest of the world’s armed forces is that here in the US, probably because of our Puritan background, we think that in order to be “serious” about a given subject/profession, one has to be seen to be “solemn” about it. And woe be it to you if you are thought to be taking a serious situation light-heartedly. And since the “line” not to be stepped over is always moving, it takes some serious street smarts to survive if one’s career is/was not to be ended abruptly. Now, some people chafe under these restrictions and others, like Lex, successfully maneuver through the political rapids–either that or know when to make themselves scarce at the appropriate time.
One of the coolest, sharpest, intelligent, good-stick pilot and officer I ever met–tall, dark and handsome, a “smooth operator” in all respects, as the saying goes in both his personal and professional life–was a Sr Capt who turned down promotion to Major to put in his papers to go fly airlines in 69. Although in a rival squadron (the 91st)in the 81stTFW at our adjacent base in England, I had gotten to know him fairly well, so one afternoon at the bar I asked him why, as I, like most of the rest of us, was shocked. “Well,” he said, “you see it’s this way. They have lots of rules in the Air Force, and one of them says that you have to put on your hat every time you walk out the door–and guess what? I don’t like to wear hats,” he said, his voice tailing off and taking a long swig of his drink as if to punctuate the end of the conversation.
Of course there was more to it than that, but maybe really not that much more–it often really does boil down to the “horses for courses”/”different strokes…” sort of thing. And the services often lose some of their best people (which he was) because of minor and/or petty things.
Look, any Navy that–in the throes of WWII with it touch and go and the issue still in doubt–will screw over the guy that broke the Japanese code and figured out the attack was going to be at Midway–by assigning him to command a dry-dock in SF for the rest of the war and shit-can his talents because the big-kids in the Pentagon wanted him to dummy up so they could take credit for it and get all the shiny stuff pined on THEIR chests–won’t hesitate for a nano-second to sacrifice jr officers to the PC gods in this year of our Lord 2009 AD no matter HOW good they are.
Virgil. Whatever your religious persuasion. Amen.
That particular squadron CO was one of “my” LSOs. He is also a TOPGUN instructor, and a pretty good guy.
So here is my question. If the Video had been of a male, and it was sexually suggestive, and it was shot without his consent, would the Admiral have gone high and right?
Equal treatment? I don’t think so. Yet another setback for women on ships…
I don’t know what I’m not seeing here, but… What I really don’t understand is why the junior officers were punished when they had the approval of the senior officer in a matter that was a judgment call (not a clear black-and-white issue)… I mean, you can argue that the CO was right or wrong in his judgment–and if you decide he was wrong by your standards, then he is punished for “poor judgment.” But why the JOs?
Think this was a case of the BG Commander, (who I used to work with) once again trying to demonstrate to his superiors how truly PC he is.
I’m not arguing the JO’s and the CO should have been taken to task, but there are ways to do that without destroying the careers and throwing away all the investment the country has in these individuals. Think an apology to the Female Officer and placed in “TAC HACK”, no liberty for the remainder of cruise would have been sufficient.
JoeC/
I almost forgot. Upon my arrival to my new Sq in England, the Sq plans officer, another Sr. Capt just promoted Maj. below the zone had just put his papers in, and everyone was in shock, as he had just been awarded the Jaycee “Ten Outstanding Young Men in America” award (previous recepiants included Henry Kissinger, Orsen Wells, JFK, RFK, etc., as well as many lesser known professionals.) When asked why, the reply was that he felt under appreciated and that opportunities were better on the outside. Everyone had assumed that, due to his professionalism and zeal, he was a fast-burner to O-6 at least. When the service loses somebody like that–not a sub-par performer or brilliant malcontent, or someone whose family business beckons–but a model officer
in every way–them someone is doing something wrong. Especially when no one supposedly saw it coming.
After I had been in a while, I finally came to the conclusion that CaptX, being the intelligent, perceptive guy he was, picked up on the vibes and decided the hand-writing was on the wall in terms of what were then only the very softest of breezes of a coming long-term storm of PC turmoil that has by now engulfed everyone who dares not to toe the “party line”–a party line every bit as savagely unbending and demanding of conformity as anything Stalin’s old Soviet Union ever straight-jacketed it’s people with.
FuzzyBee, surely at this late date you have begun to understand that humans don’t always decide questions on their logical merits, most ’specially not when there are primate dominance games going on?
It takes a very strong character to cut through that kind of stuff.
JTG,
Yes, I know. I just was wondering what the argument is, the justification…
RetiredNTX-
If you were a Navy guy(girl?) you probably didn’t get very far – thinking like yours could be mistaken for leadership.
Very, very, well put.
V/r
Nose
Beats the hell outta me, Fuzzy.
Except maybe, something I read in “Between Planets” while standing up in the bookstore. The rebels on Venus counted on the bad guys on Earth being rational, and cutting their losses. They didn’t count on the kind of behavior of folks who deal in serious power. There are some right awkward bastards out there, some of whom have control of the armed forces of nation-states.
As VX et al have noted, the supreme overlords have been playing the whole PC war seriously since the very beginning 50 years ago. It takes a remarkably stupid and non-adaptive life form to fail to recognize that fact. I don’t much like it but orders are orders and these idiots failed to comprehend that simple salient military fact. Ordered to keep it “decent” they went for salacious and buddy pats on the fanny from their peers and screw the CAG and the Admiral. Leadership means you don’t tolerate failure to obey orders and you go after those too stupid to understand that in order to encourage the others.
Yes it’s all a stupid waste and yeah nothing would have come of it if the LT subject of the idiot videographers laughed at the film and moved on. But there is nothing in the regs that says admirals, CAGs and female officers must have an unimpaired sense of humor and that is why the PC gestapo was created. While we all understand that we cannot impart a sense of humor we all understand that we can make one follow the rules/orders or make one suffer from a lack of such ability. That is what the military defines as military service.
Very few officers would be in the navy if they had failed to understand that fact while in the Academy for boys, ROTC, OCS, AOCS, etc. “CLUE” You didn’t really have to follow the rules. You just had to work harder to make sure you weren’t caught not following the rules by the cadre/staff.
I’m disgusted with everybody involved in this crapfest with the exception of the admiral. For those that don’t understand how the military justice system works, the Admiral cannot just reach down from his throne and punish junior subordinates. Somebody below them in the chain of command must refer those miscreants to Mast first. There were quite a few people in the chain of command that believed that what these officers had done deserved an Article 15 hearing and acted on their beliefs.
For the record, I never wrote anybody up for MAST. I was a snipe and CHENG and SR Watch Officer and XO and could make my points far more effectively without using administrative tools for amending behavior. Of course, I served in the all guy navy before PC became the goad that drives us all before it tears our throat out and leaves what remains on the alter of Baal.
Shoot. I was going for brevity.
“Shoot. I was going for brevity.”
But instead you landed on the alter of Baal. LOL. You’re sure right, Curtis, it really does tear at the throat–which is why we end up looking around 32 paragraphs later wondering how we got into all that….
I’m sitting here trying to figure out whether all the venting helps or hurts my blood pressure–I guess when I pop a vein I’ll have the ans… Would be nice to be even-keeled like Lex…a walking advertisement for Aristotle’s
“Golden Mean.”–or is it the Goldilocks Award?
A few years back, during my first j.o. tour, a similar incident occured with distinctly different results. If memory serves, Lex you were with the SHWFGD about that time, or maybe it was just before you got there.
Back to the story…
The squadron was being disestablished as the airframe was leaving the fleet. A few of the enterprising j.os. deceided to poke fun at the big XO and the sanctity of the blue tile area.
In the video one of the j.os. donned a flight deck jersey and a pillow to simulate the look of the portly big XO. Shot late a night when the blue tile p-ways were empty, the fake big XO wandered around looking for j.os. that should not have been treading those “hallowed halls.”
Mildly entertaining at first, the laughter really started going when, in the background, the viewer begins to see glimpses of a person running in the background. The chase was on…
The video continued through a few more scenes of the fake big XO just missing the “intruder.” Quick flashes of a bare limbs at first, then a bare backside.
Finally a quick fade to black as the fake big XO crashes into the streaking j.o.
The end result — a whole lot of laughter at follies that night.
This is back in the late 80s, but some JOs were putting on a skit at a dining in and typical of Jos everywhere it was tasteless. Featured someone simulating Patricia Schroeder simulating fellatio on the others in the act. Brought a very promising career of the Flag present to a screeching halt because he didn’t stand up and flounce out to show his condemnation. E-2 guy and one of the best.
I was much taken to task earlier for sticking my “Marine” nose into a Navy issue. But, as we are all part of the Naval Service, I will again say that this is a massive failure of leadership.
Once again we have PC run amok, and several careers destroyed merely to prove that political correctness is more important today than combat readiness.
I still have no opinion of the video, and won’t until I see it myself. (I’m astonished that it hasn’t leaked.) But it apparently was taken in the wardroom and features a female DESRON staff officer eating. Now, several things spring to mind, but one might come to the conclusion that it would be difficult to produce an “inappropriate video” that was “sexually suggestive” if Ms. DESRON was following Miss Manners standards of decorum.
It has been my experience through the years that aviators tend to have a raucus sense of humor that is frequently aimed at ANY perceived weakness. What a shock that they might seize the opportunity when it was presented.
Wife said something interesting last night, watching “Hell’s Kitchen”. Some babe gets blasted by Ramsay, and says to him “I also teach manners.” Wife says, “I could tell she wasn’t used to being unliked.” Mention that to the bubblehead *** two doors down at work today. He says, “That’s what we thought about Boorda.” Goes on to say that the feeling in the CNO’s office (he was VCNO’s EA at the time) was that Boorda had been loved his entire career, and worked his butt off to make sure that he was — from SN to ADM. Then, he runs into criticism — Webb, Hackworth, and couldn’t deal with it. Bubblehead says, “Not a problem with you aviators. You pick on each other from the git go, and have stronger characters as a result. Shoes pick only on the weakest, and they really crap on them. The workaholics make sure they stay above the fray. We submariners work hard, and are satisfied with being satisfactory. Just ask an ORS board.”
As long as we are into management styles, I’m reminded of what a Sr. Maj. Flt. Cmdr in one squadron I was in said to we FNGs about a long departed Sq. Co and his management style. It was known as “Maas’s Theory of Management,” in which one guy was picked out to be totally dumped on by being given every shitty job/duty in the squadron. Of course he went around being totally POd 100% of the time, but the other 99% were totally happy. (Har) Don’t know if story was really true or not, but I later came to know some CO’s of whom I would would have sworn were following “Maas’s” (whoever he was) playbook to the letter.
Virgil:
Re: 26 – were you happy or sad in the sqdn?
Back in the day, the Foc’sle Follies were always raucous on Saratoga. The Air Wing and CV Staff were lambasted and of course the squadrons lampooned each other. No punches were pulled, and even the Admiral (if present)was fair game.
But to my recollection, there was NEVER a case where the butt of the joke was not present in the assembly. That was the whole point, to laugh in their face, never behind the back!
I think it would have been considered in very poor taste to have done this back in those days, and might have warranted a closed door talk about judgement. “Below average in headwork, don’t let it happen again” is probably how it should have been framed.
The way this was dealt with probably reflects the paranoia in the chain of command about such matters. Burning these guys was easiest way to cover their sixes.
H*ll – J.O. Tuttle used to show up to our foxhole follies in flak vest and helmet – and for someone with the callsign of SLUF, he gave as good as he took…
- SJS
Flat brings up a good point – she wasn’t there to defend herself- so that ain’t in the spirit of things.
But again I ask: what would have been the FLAG/CAG reaction if it were Scott or some other male surface nuke who was filmed without his knowledge and shown at follies? I’m guessing they would have laughed and not thought anything else about it.
Double. Standard.
Amen Nose.
Really sad if you ask me.
But I never knew Scott was a nuke.
Something tells me he would not find being compared to a nuke very amusing………….
OldT6Flyer/
I ain’t talkin’, Sheriff.
Onliest airedale I worked for was Brent Bennet. Good skipper. Total gentleman. Can not begin to imagine him allowing any other officer to belittle or put down a female officer subordinate to him, particularly if she was not present to defend herself. Your mileage with the man may differ. If so, I’d love to hear it.
I worked with a SEAL CDR who ate bananas; with a knife. Always. Peel the thing, slice off a bit and put it in the mouth. Never the whole thing. You understand.
VX makes another excellent point about SWOs. We seem to be the first point of contact for losers that have demonstrated a lack of proficiency at flying or can’t hack it in subs. On the 6 ships I served on we always seemed to have a crap magnet in the wardroom who absorbed 95% of the crap doled out. I don’t think of it as crapping on the weakest for no purpose. We needed those losers to get with the program or get lost. When, at the best of times, you can expect to be in 3 section underway watches you simply lose all tolerance for dirtbags whose continued failings mean that you are now headed for port and starboard watches underway. Those air things, they go to sea with plenty of spare officers. The ship’s company doesn’t. Aviators live to fly and build hours in a logbook but I really came to hate spending 17 hours out of every 24 on watch.
I enjoy Lex’s stories about the good ole days when he burst out of the rack at 1000 inport and then wandered down to check for mail and looked around at 1100 and announced he was heading to lunch off the ship and did anybody else feel a wee bit peckish?
No complaints. I thoroughly enjoyed it all!
Sorry, Nose. We lit majors weren’t eligible for the Rickover wire brushing.
But I’ve spent the night on a nuke, and have traps on a nuke in my logbook. Does that make me one? Like a HI Express?