I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but it certainly seems like this police officer has some issues to work through.
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Excessive Force48 comments to Excessive Force |
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If the story is accurate, then he used excessive force and needs to go down for it. However, there’s also this sentence:
“A detective assigned to the girl’s case discovered the video Dec. 1 and immediately forwarded it to supervisors.”
One of the majority dealt with one of the minority.
That’s a good point, pard. Thanks. There’s good and bad in any organization. The difference between good and bad organizations is self-policing.
You think, Lex??
If this is an accurate video, there is no argument, she has some issues. The big thing is she is not in uniform or have authority. The authority and responsibility belonged to the officers and to those above them. The bar is higher than the law for those officers and those in authority over them. It is not easy, but the Police chose this balance.
Oh, pwecious occifur got itty bitty bludbruze from low-velocity smartass teengirl shoe! Showz her whos teh Boss!
Maybe if he’d like, just slapped her once… I was an adolescent once, and yes IMHO most of the silly bimbos deserved a slap as much as their surly lout male counterparts deserved a punch in the solar plexus.
But hey, he already had her under control, was supposed and required to keep a cooler head than most of us, and suffered failure of cranial cooling. He shoulda shrugged it off, and told her,
“Ma’am, that shoe hit me, though it did not hurt me. I am going to add assaulting a peace officer to the list of charges against you. Please be careful when emphasizing your emotions with passionate physical gestures.”
That said, I betcha that pig doesn’t own a comb.
Hey, what happened to my eloquent witty comment, which made fun of both the silly teen bimbo and the skinhead with badge?
We give lots of credit to our military and not enough to our law enforcement. Like us, they are far from perfect. Having said that, it takes a saint to put up with the B$ they put up with. It doesn’t make it right when something like this happens, but it does make it somewhat understandable.
I used to tell my troops back in the day that if you get into an incident with the Politzei you best use “yes, sir” or “no, sir” and do whatever you think the German cop was telling you because their response to one of our guys getting out of hand was alway like the one you saw in the video.
The cop above was way out of line but the kid got a taste of real consquences of her behavior. I bet if she had ever had been disciplined at home in her formative years this wouldn’t have happened- at least to her.
I’d bet that had she ever been disciplined at home in her formative years, she’d not have tried driving off with her parents’ car before being eligible to hold a license in the first place. Or if the parents decided that as a teen she needed more “friends” instead of “parents,” then she’d at least have told them she was taking it. Those worthies letting her risk her own driving career, as it were, to take what consequences may occur on her own.
Disclaimer: cops have a REALLY hard job, and I wouldn’t want to do it. I have been shot at over Baghdad, and I wouldn’t want to trade jobs with them. They are usually justified in beating the crap out of the crack-head gangsters they arrest. That said…
When I was in college (on an NROTC scholarship), I went to a Buffett concert in P-cola. When I refused to sit down in my assigned 4th row seat (I used a universally recognized hand signal to communicate), I got ejected by an “usher”. I landed in the hands of the city police, who wanted me to “voluntarily” leave the concert. I refused, of course ($30 admission!). That got me arrested for “trespassing”. Into ‘cuffs and a patrol car trip downtown – all firsts for me. Having had a few doses of courage prior to the concert, I let the cop know how mistaken he was: “this is BS!; you guys are so F’d up!” Alright, I let loose a few cans of loudmouth soup from the back seat of that squad car. Long story short: Pensacola’s finest pulled that car over, dragged me out be the collar, and proceeded to beat the crap out of me. WHAT? Am I Rodney King? I had never, prior to that, had anything but respect for cops; never envisioned them doing anything less than honorable. My perspective of their power and how it might affect them individually was changed for a lifetime. Lord Acton comes to mind…
Moderation? Really? Just ’cause I said “BS”?
Nah, prolly the spam filter thought you were a first time commenter. It gets twitchy like that, and you don’t want to see some of the stuff that comes across the transom.
Oh, yeah, there’s a video which I can’t see on my ancient system. I would like to know if I guessed correctly about the silly bimbitude of the teen girl and the shortness of the hair of the officer. A buzz cut is a convict haircut! Why do honest people want to resemble criminals?
(My sentiments may or may not have anything to do with the fact that I shaved my head once on a lark and discovered that I am one of those people whose skull does not look good when he is bald. I do dread the advancing male pattern baldness. With any luck I’ll get into a shouting match with a Federal Agent which ends up causing both of our deaths before my head starts looking really ugly.)
I’ll show this to my kids. While there is no excuse for any in law enforcement to do this, I can certainly empathize with any cop feeling the frustrations of the mouthiness of todays youth. This will serve as a reminder that politeness no matter your circumstances may prevent this from occurring.
Yes sir.
No sir.
Thank you sir.
Simple on the face of it.
Oh yeah, Lee, formal manners are _most_ important in hostile situations. I believe that is why they were invented in the first place.
I distrust and dislike cops, but am always careful to be formally polite to them with my best simulation of a mild easygoing demeanor. They may be un-American, un-English, completely irregular, and in fact, French, but they do frighten me.
I am, of course, always happy to meet a Peace Officer who has internalized the principles promulgated by Bobby Peel.
This reminds me of something I read in Temple Grandin’s latest book. She, like I, was raised with good manners, both of us having grown up in the fifties before the collapse of American society.
She wrote of going to a convention of autistic/aspic people and being shocked by the rudeness of one of the other presenters. She knew that he knew how to behave politely from previous observation, but he behaved very very rudely.
I reckon he was from California or someplace. I was raised Southern which has stood me in good stead in social situations. Professor Grandin was raised New-England-Yankee, but they have manners, too.
Or used to
Sorry, when the scumbags abuse, strike, spit on or otherwise trouble their jailers I have no problem with the jailers beating the living crap out of the detainee.
I’m a bit of a libertarian though so I have absolutely no problem with any detainee who has been falsely arrested/detained trying to kill any cop who attempts to abuse them while detained at the pleasure of the state.
My advice to both parties… You’d be wise to know who you are dealing with before getting into it. Most cops seem to think that they own a pass to single sided violence. They’d be wrong. The state seems to be sending significant numbers of them to jail.
“The state seems to be sending significant numbers of them to jail.”
Welcome to my world:
SCHENECTADY — Former Schenectady police chief Greg Kaczmarek was led out of a Schenectady County courtroom Monday in handcuffs, moments after being sentenced on his earlier plea of guilty to drug possession.
http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2009/feb/03/0203_kaz/
Tarnishing the badge: A decade of trouble for Schenectady police
http://timesunion.com/ASPStories/Story.asp?StoryID=771640
No, really, this is serious. As we have more “diversity” in our culture from day to day, we’re getting more and more people who don’t have common ideas how to act in ordinary social situations, not to mention situations fraught with violence!
Jeez, Curtis, get a grip. A 15-year-old girl kicked her shoe at an officer. Do you really think that justifies a beating, much less a single punch?
The officer in question was a complete, grade-A anal pore. He had no excuse for his actions.
On the other hand, I agree completely with Justthisguy, in that (formerly) common courtesy is the best policy when dealing with police. I’ve encountered men and women from several southwest Ohio forces both professionally (my one-every-six-years moving violation, feh) and informally, including the Greater Cincinnati Police. Every one of them was entirely professional.
Thing is, I’ve talked with other locals (usually under 21) who complain about the “jerks” they’ve met. I suspect the complainers were dumb enough -or rude enough- to mouth off to the officers they’ve encountered. B****ing that they were stopped for speeding because they were late for work doesn’t seem to impress many peace officers.
I’ve even gotten off with a warning when I was stopped for expired 30-day tags. Some goober at the dealer somehow lost the title to my new (used) car, and they went nuts trying to get it to me. The officer explained that I could get an extension (which was news to me), and warned me to get one ASAP.
Come to think of it, I’ve never been unjustly stopped by a police officer, although the time they pulled me over while I was on a bicycle was interesting…
I have never had any run ins with the law. My first moving traffic violation came about 8 years after I started driving and the San Diego cop even laughed as he gave me a ticket for not coming to a complete stop at the stop sign half way down Laurel street when I asked him if California Rolling Stops weren’t legal in California??
That girl did a lot more than we see on the video. Consider that she was being tanked by herself in a private cell at one minute (a courtesy that police extend to juveniles) and then she struck the officer with her shoe and what was that language she was using. Why did that other jail cop appear instantly and assist the first officer to subdue the 15 year old girl? Again, there was no volume but it didn’t look like he took any actions to restrain the first cop which tells me that both were following sanctioned policy within the jail. If you don’t like the policy then you should take it up with the Sheriff or the Police Chief not with the cops that are following it. Then they raised her up and took her out of the plush looking holding cell and probably took her off to round off the charges sheet and then lock her up in the normal lockup for trash swept off the street.
Arguing with a cop is the kind of argument you lose. That’s why they’re called law enforcement, that’s their job and that’s what they do. They’re not the ones you have to convince, they pretty made up their mind you were worth their time and paperwork when they stopped you.
Your argument, if arrested, is with the DA or the judge, not the cop.
That said, this deputy has some anger management issues, and he should get them tended to before being allowed to interact with the public again. For one, he does nothing to bring credit to the force. For another, he’s going to try that same act on somebody else some day, and get his ass handed to him. Hard. And when somebody is beating on a cop that last punch is no more expensive than the first, might as well continue for a while.
Tends to not work out so well for the officer.
– Max
Max/
As someone I respect a lot for his knowledge of “cop psychology” once said: “Hey, they’ve all got their quotas (as they needed any on a Sat nite) and are going to have to fill out the paper-work on somebody before the shift is over–might as well be you.” “Which is why I always try to make myself scarce toward ends of shift-changes,” he went on, “all it takes then is the slightest excuse for them to start the paperwork if they haven’t made an arrest yet that day.”
What’s that ol’ sayin’: “Nothing good happens after midnight.” I too am a devotee of the policy of using Yes Sir, No Sir when pulled over by a LEO. Works better for both parties. I get better treatment and he might be inclined to not fill out a ticket.
Oops. I thought I deleted the first reply, though I stand by it and then I seem to have lost my reply to Casey. It had some typos and such so if it shows up later, you are all invited to point and laugh at my expense.
Y’know, no matter how you shake it, you still end up with a veteran law enforcement officer who ran through his list of options and decided that beating the $%!# out of a smart-a$$ teenage girl was the best way to proceed. If you read the article again closely, you’ll notice that this particular officer already had two officer-involved shootings in his 8-year career, and a DUI of his own as well.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist (or a chaplain, for that matter) to tell you that this guy has issues. Maybe anger management, maybe not. But certainly shooting two people close range – even if justified – has a profound impact on someone. LtCol David Grossman, author of “On Killing” and founder of the Killology Research Group, has studied the psychological impact of killing and found that the closer to the target/victim/enemy one is, the more it affects you.
I wonder what kind of after-care this officer received after each of his shootings, because it’s likely that his current behavior (including probable alcohol abuse) is tied in with it.
Major, You have reminded us of major things, this issue of his history of 2 officer involved shootings, plus a personal DUI. The officers had the sense that they deserved respect. In a sense, they demanded respect. When it did not come there was disappointment. Problem, you never demand respect. You command it, you earn it. In this Country, you are innocent until proven guilty. Since the history was part of an administrative action, it would not surprise me if this was recorded with the Federal Administrative Law Judge. I wonder how the Court would view a breach of a previous agreement.
If the report is true, that deputy has no place in law enforcement. You deal with mouthy people every day, and you get used to it. Here in Wisconsin, as in most states, our actions are governed by a force option continuum. This is a graduated series of steps that guide an officer in the proper level of force appropriate to a given situation, ranging from presence, verbal contact, open hand techiques, impact weapons, diffused strikes, and deadly force.
Note, if you will, that there is a complete lack of a Stomping of Lippy Kid step. I cannot help but believe that WA must also have a Force Option Continuum. Like it says on the door of the car, we are here to Serve and to Protect, and that applies to our prisoners, too. ( OK, I wanted the Latin phrase Abi Procedere, Fabricati Diem on my front quarter panel, but they said no). We Badgers take our role in society seriously, and realise the trust society places in us, and how hard it is to regain that trust, once lost. People ask, Quis Custiodet Ipsos Custiodes, and we had better make sure that we can honestly answer, we will faithfully watch ourselves, so we won’t lose your trust.
Here in Florida, it’s called the Use of Force Matrix.
Not that it’s an excuse, but I noticed that the deputy in question has been involved in a shooting. I wonder if he has some issues from that and should of spent some time in EAP instead of going back on the road.
I will show this video to my daughter. Hopefully, she will understand that the officer was wrong and the beligerant girl was stupid. It didn’t matter if she was stupid because the end result beating is irreversible. The only way to prevent the beating was to maintain control of her emotions, a problem 15 year old girls tend to have. This girl decided to make a stand and prove her point. The consequence of her decision undoubtably made an impression.
The lesson for her is that there is a time to make a stand and there is a time to retreat.
Cops deal with $cumbags all day long, 40-50 hours a week/50 weeks a year. They get hurt on a regular basis- wrestling people to the groun, you’re always gonna get some bruises and scrapes. Try every every couple weeks, not once a lifetime maybe like this latest generation that never had one neighborhood fight.
Police officers are expected to have skills of a pastor, psychologist, Columbo and “Dirty Harry” all rolled into one thanks to our popular culture and TV cops.. Pretty hard to get that package in HS grads (not that college would make such a big difference) for a lousy 45K a year, working nights the 1st five..Wouldn’t y’all say?
This cop in the video? Perhaps a quick 1/2 speed slap woulda been more appropriate. I’m old school. Beats rubber hose.
Another scenario. How about this?
http://www.snopes.com/crime/cops/judd.asp
On the other hand when the black camo group shows up with snipers and they git itchy finger,s or have bad gouge they think is actionable…IMO, that is when the most abuse occurs.
It’s a tough job. Made all the tougher by all the crazy psychos and loony liberals.
b2
One of the things I admire most about our military is that the new recruits learn pretty fast to address strangers as ‘Ma’am’ or ‘Sir,’ which tends to start off your interaction with them on the right respectful footing. Being a very old lady, although young at heart, I can assure all of you younger folks that as children, my generation was taught to address all strangers above the age of puberty this way. I suspect all of you commenters who are also parents have taught your children these basic indicators of respect.
If this foolish child had been taught the proper forms of address by her parents I suspect she would have fewer bruises today.
Don’t get me wrong. I deeply resent those armed and stronger bullies beating her. It’s disgraceful. But if she had been respectful and polite, I doubt the beating would have occurred. There’s enough blame to go around here, and some of it should go to her parents, who didn’t demand respectful behavior toward adults from her. when she was young enough to learn.
Marianne
P. S. The Ma’am and Sir thing still works for me, particularly when the person I’m dealing with is cranky [as we all feel these days with all the financial uncertainty.] It tends to disconcert the aggressor.
Funny, I wrote my earlier reply, and then spent the day with a Stockton, Ca. PD cop at a gun show. This guy has two personalities, the one he uses normally, and the one he uses for rude/dangerous/unruly types. I’ve never seen the latter, only heard stories. I have a lot of cop friends, none of them have even come close to doing anything like what the idiot in the video did. I stand by my earlier assessment, I don’t condone any cop using excessive force, especially when being hit with a converse all star in the shin by a 95lb teenybopper with an attitude. But, I will use her shear stupidity as an example of how NOT to act when law enforcement tells you to do somehthing with my own kids should they encounter a police officer doing his duty. I think this lesson has been learned before, many times.
Yes, well, it will be three years before this girl is old enough to enter the military. And she was in jail for an auto theft which only involved ’stealing’ her own parent’s car.
Thought I’d add: Taxpayers are the ones who will pay for this one. The girl’s family will surely sue the state.
…We should all keep one little bit of ‘collateral damage’ in mind here: the officer’s over-the-top response has insured that the young ‘lady’ will almost certainly NEVER see any consequences for the offense that landed her there in the first place. She will – at BEST – get a mere slap on the wrist, and at worst she’ll walk completely. On top of that, the likelihood of her ever being called to account for her attitude and behavior is now nil. She is now officially a ‘victim’ and will milk it for all it’s worth.
Mike
Note also that if you were to change the scenario around a bit and make the officer a single father and the girl his daughter, he would almost certainly be facing child abuse charges and the girl would be sent off with Child Protective Services.
All the rigamarole about how the girl “had it coming” or “was taught a lesson” – while possibly having about one grain of truth – nevertheless smacks of a certain “serves her right” attitude which I find indefensible in light of the undeniably brutal response of the officer involved. As others have noted, there exists a force continuum which both military and law enforcement adhere to. I myself went through non-lethal training with the Marines, and the whole point was that you use just enough force – and no more – as is necessary to control/subdue the subject. Any more than that and *you* become the bad guy.
What MajHarvey said.
I can agree that this kid needs some lessons in respect, attitude and appropriate behaviour. But that’s her parents’ job. Nothing justifies what that cop did.
What do you think – how about a police state where if you mouth off to an officer they can expect to find your lifeless body in some garbage can somewhere the next day? If you’re not okay with that, I don’t see how you can possibily be okay with this.
Damn right, I would sue if that was my kid. The flip side of that equation being that if she stole any vehicle (including mine), I would have no problem with the cops picking her up and putting a severe scare into her. Note that’s a scare, not a beating. Depending on the circumstances, I would even consider charging her, she has to learn sometime. And there would be another lesson at home about her mouth and how she treated the police.
But that cop? Should not be in uniform. He, like the kid, is obviously in need of the same lesson that actions have consequeces. And beyond those consequences, at a miminum he shouldn’t be allowed back in uniform without a test for mental fitness for the job. And an offer for some psychological assistance, presuming he needs it.
Don’t tell me what a rough job the police have, I know it. And I respect it. But it’s exactly because we expect them to be pastor, psychologist, Columbo and “Dirty Harry” all rolled into one, that we can’t in any way, shape or form condone this behaviour. If he hauled off and went after a gang member after a shooting or something like that, then, while I still couldn’t condone it, I could probably understand it. But a 15 year old girl with a potty mouth who dared to kick her shoe at him?
Please take a look at the video and tell me exactly what you see at 00:07 – 00:09 min. To me it seems:
1. She kicks her shoe at him at 00:07.
2. He moves in, initially slow and in control.
3. at 00:09 she reaches out with her hand for his face, to slap, scratch or poke him in the eyes.
4. The situation “gets out of hand”.
What did I get wrong? I am not yet discussing on whether it was a pure beating or not or excessive use of force or not. I am still only concerned on what subjective situation the participants were in at 00:09 min.
The same vid, larger size:
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/video/bcplayer.asp?bcpid=1543292903&bctid=14370236001
MajHarvey, in reference to changes in the scenario, I would change it it. What would happen if this girl was, in some way related to one of us? How do we react if we find out that this girl was reactive instead of proactive. Now, tell me, what do you tell your daughter to do if somebody is treating her sexually inappropriately? Look at the history. Don’t talk to me about correcting the girl, Tell me, how do you correct the officers and those in authority, because those officers’ behavior reflects on all of US.
hajo-hi,
I didn’t see what you saw. It looks to me like she’s raising her hands defensively as he lunges at her during that second and kicks her (not sure how he could be seen going in ‘initially slow and in control’ in a confrontation that happens in a fraction of a second timeframe…at least not to the naked eye).
Good grief! It looks like he lifts her up from the ground by her hair when her arms are behind her in cuffs at the end.
Liz, that is exactly where I have issues with him. I grew up at a time where kicking objects at the Polizei and calling them fat pigs was asking for contact sport.
Yet the beating at 00:19 is perfectly unnecessary and a messing with a woman’s hair is always intimate. And this is why the whole affair is across the border of abuse.
For all you Idealists out there who apparently missed my point: Try flipping off , yelling obscenities and hitting your horn in LA traffic or many other metro areas in this country at the obnoxious and or aggressive drivers and see if there isn’t a consequence to your behavior. Life is hard. Life is harder if you are stupid.
We don’t live in a perfect world and my point was that girl picked the wrong cop. No excuse for his actions was offered.
MAJ Harvey- as a Marine you should know best what happens if you stand out and not in a positive way. In Boot Camp? Not a good thing. Blend in and if they don’t recognize your name at graduation, you done good. That was my primary point.
geo6-
No one is debating the fact that actions have consequences. Obviously, we can all see from the video that the girl “picked the wrong cop” – as though she had some choice in the matter. What is up for debate is whether certain actions should result in consequences far out of proportion to the original act. Your example about honking in LA traffic is a perfect case in point: if someone were to be shot b/c of it, would your sympathy lie with the victim, or would you simply shrug and let loose with your “Life is tougher if you’re stupid” comment?
Yes, in boot camp I did my best to be the “gray man” and not stand out – but a mistake on my part in no way condones an overly abusive response by the DI, right?
Maybe you’re trying to inject a dose of what you’d call “reality” into the situation, but comments such as “the kid got a taste of real consequences of her behavior” appear to cast you as more sympathetic to the cop than the girl. If that’s not your intent (and I don’t think it is), than I’d suggest balancing your statement a bit more. Expecting our cops to behave appropriately doesn’t make one an idealist, IMHO.
MAJ H,
Ok. I concede that using the term “idealist’ was provocative. Apparently we all have prizms we see things thru and this is one example. I don’t see any comment of my supporting the behavior of that cop in the vid. None. Nadda. Just because I didn’t express immediate outrage at his behavior I come across as sympathetic to the cop? Couldn’t be farther from the truth. As for the Boot analogy, who said anything about an abusive D.I.? You know they can make you miserable enough without being abusive.
Next, why do you assume I would take some sort of pleasure if someone was shot in a case of road rage even though they were stupid? You are quick to paint me as some sort of barbaric insensitive horse’s backside. But understanding your “Marine-ness”, the best defense is an aggressive offense.
Reality was the point and I was not offering a commentary on proper behavior of the cop- as you mention- we are to expect it, it is in their job description, nor should we accept anything less. My thoughts on the teenaged girl are more a critical appraisal of what the current culture produces and its impact with abdication of responsibility by many parents in raising their kids today. The girl’s life experience and upbringing didn’t prepare her for the consequences of her actions in the “real” world outside her high school, social circle or home life. Probably it was the first time she ever experienced a negative consequence to her behavior and BTW, she DID have a choice on how to act whether to a thoroughly professional policeman or the bully in the video.
Life is hard enough, you don’t have to go out and look for trouble. Enough finds you on its own without you looking for it, as you so recently and painfully experienced. BTW, hope you are mending well and quickly.
MAJ H,
I believe it was Marine “Sergeant Striker” who said: ” Life is tough. Life is tougher if you are stupid” in the Sands of Iwo Jima. I just like my version better.
Best,
geo6
Ok, this’ll be my last post on the subject – cuz I think that you and I are the only ones left in the bar; everyone else has gone home/moved on.
No, you made no comment supporting the cop. Here’s what you did say: “The cop above was way out of line but the kid got a taste of real consequences of her behavior.” Whether it’s intentional or not, your phrasing appears pretty flippant and certainly makes it appear that regardless of the legitimacy of the officer’s actions, you definitely have no sympathy for the girl – in fact, she probably shoulda known better.
I’m not painting you as anything. Really. I’m not assuming that you’d take any sort of pleasure in anyone else’s wrongdoing. Really. But you’re the one who threw John Wayne’s famous quote in there, which causes one to conclude that you think that stupid LA-honkers kinda get what’s comin’ to ‘em. My point was simply to say that the consequences should fit the action – and one aspect of justice is to ensure that this balance is maintained.
For the record, I completely agree with you re. the “abdication of responsibility” by parents today, and how it leaves their children woefully unprepared for real world applications. That said, I don’t think many people would’ve been prepared for THAT kind of a response from a cop – in other words, you should be raised to respect law enforcement cuz it’s the right thing to do, not b/c you’re afraid they’re gonna give you a beatdown if you don’t.
Thanks for the discussion – glad we were able to keep it civil.
Thanks also for the good wishes – I’m mending, but slowly. The prognosis is good, however.
-MajH
Amen, Major!
(Jtg, straggling back into the bar from the storeroom, where he was hiding out and reading a book, knowing full well that closing time was comeing right soon and he needed to get the mop and bucket)
I, too, wish you a quick and complete recovery and will pray for the Lord’s help in that.
I make no promise to refrain from Baptist jokes. Hey, my Mom was one, but I think my failings are not her fault.