I confess to be a little bemused by the whole “tea party” thing, while being generally supportive of the intent of those participating in them. Conservatives, generally speaking, don’t protest. It’s just not a part of their schtick, not to mention the conflict that standing around carrying signs has with the paying work.
But it’s tax day, and – after days (weeks?) of ignoring the phenomenon – the media has finally taken notice. Which throws a galvanic switch requiring everyone else to pay attention, most in a mocking tone.
“First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you go home and make dinner, read to the kids, pay your taxes, and go to sleep. After all, tomorrow’s another day at the office, and it isn’t like that mortgage is paying itself.”
No stilt puppets, and precious few kettle drums, so far as I can tell. Everyone fully dressed. And lots of American flags. Most of which were flown right-side up, and all of which were untrampled upon and unburned.
Conclusions are left to the reader.
After having listened to many protesters today, I am struck by the words of Adm Yamamoto:
“I fear all we (Democrats) have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.”
BBB
I read that some spokesman for the administration said that P.BHO was “unaware” of the Tea Parties. Somehow I doubt that.
Well, maybe…reports about a week ago is he watches HBO series, sports and Sponge Bob Square Pants, not the news…
Then again, to acknowledge them is to acknowledge them!
I went and looked at the photos in the link for “stilt puppets” and well, I am guessing all those people voted for “The One”. Makes you proud to see and of course wonder where they keep those new fangled BLU-82 Bunker Buster Bombs cause, we really should test them at any rally held at Berkley.
I just got home from a tea party in Hauppauge, NY. There were probably 300 tops at the protest. I stood the line on a heavily traveled street and many, many motorists honked us! We cheered and waved our American flags.
Some people had hair brained signs but most had very patriotic signs and American flags.
I am glad I went.
Apparently the governor of Texas (Rick Perry) threatened to secede at a rally today. Are our political leaders getting dumber? I’m sure Obama and the rest of the democrats will feel threatened by Texas, a state that takes in more tax revenue from the rest of the country then it contributes and is a guaranteed 34 electoral college votes for the Republican party, leaving the union.
“Obama and the rest of the democrats will feel threatened by Texas, a state that takes in more tax revenue from the rest of the country ”
BS – that’s as meaningless a statement as I’ve ever read. States don’t take in tax revenue from other states, or from the federal government.
Diablo,
Your little raspberries are pretty mouldy in their presentation. Try offering up some linkage to back up your claims.
In other news… (cross commented at Jules Crittenden)
1730 hours,
I just got back from the Tea Party rally in Augusta, Maine. The rally was planned for 5-7pm, but there were a couple hundred there by 3pm, and when we left, at 6:30, the crowd had swelled to several hundred, with a steady stream of more arriving even as we were departing. There were many, many wonderful signs, with probably 90% of them handmade. Also quite a few “Don’t Tread On Me” flags, many Betsy Ross flags, and other American flags.
What was interesting was how many folks brought their children along, and the cross-section of the state. Rich, poor, old, young, they were all there, and all were mad as hell. If an actual politician had shown up, he/she would’ve been given one serious earful of talking.
The other interesting thing was that the organizers had a small PA system, and anyone, and I mean anyone, who wanted to speak for a few minutes, was given the opportunity. It was eye-opening, because everyone there was on the same page. They are all fed up with what has happened, and they mean to see that it gets corrected in 2010.
Time and time again, speakers reaffirmed that “elections have consequences” and that our only chance to correct this was to elect responsible folks to office who would follow the Constitution, and put and end to this foolish taxation.
If, as it is estimated, only 1 in 100 of those who feel the same way actually turn up for a rally, then the leftists and the rightists who are so strongly in favour of POTUS’ tax plans, TARP, etc, are in for a very rude shock in the next round of elections.
All in all, there was a whiff of rebellion in the air, and town meetings are apt to get right interesting for politicians when they come home to visit.
respects,
Better be careful. Could be some of those radicalized vets in those crowds…
Long time reader, first time caller.
Technically what Governor Perry said was that he saw no reason to leave, “But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that.” http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041509dnmetteaparties.d8880855.html
Personally, while I tend to swing leftward, I found the snark describing the photos of both the tea parties and anti-war protests hilarious.
If you are a SNA, just beginning your career, and you swing/vote left, then you are stupid. Under regimes like Obama’s flight hours go way down, readiness goes way down, and the “leaders” that are left behind when the smart people leave are the kind that “lead” us through the mid 90′s.
Enjoy your shrink wrapped airplanes…
It was eye-opening, because everyone there was on the same page.
That should not be surprising-they all get their info from the same sources.
I can’t help but assign the tea protests a place in my view that the Right is generally going through the same convulsions that overtook the Left in the late 1970′s and continued into the 1990′s.
The Left of that era grew to be increasingly insular, ideologically rigid, and dyspeptic. Identifying as a liberal during the Reagan era was a bit of a badge of honor, but the complete lack of power lead to all sorts of nuttiness. With nothing but a record of losing, it became possible for the anyone on the Left to come up with ridiculous policy prescriptions, and the lack of anyone in power listening made the advocate look bold and daring, rather than unstable and silly.
Nowhere was this more evident than in what I call the “Protest Left.”
With misty memories of the civil rights and Vietnam demonstrations in their heads, this crowd would take to the streets at the drop of a hat. As the years wore on, these protests grew increasingly incoherent and undirected. In the 1990′s while in college, after getting sick of the nonsense, I would press my ideological colleagues who would ask me to go march in the streets about something, “What are we trying to accomplish? Who is the target? What do we want them to do?” The answers were always vague generalities about “building the movement,” “taking action,” and the ever-present “raising awareness” among the amorphous “society.” (I must note that during this era I did witness some highly effective, targeted, and well organized protests, but they tended to be the exception.)
It increasingly struck me that these protests served primarily as form of group therapy via self expression. When ones movement is, quite literally, powerless, there’s a sense of despair that can take over. In a demonstration, one can commiserate with ones fellow travelers, and instead of powerlessness, there’s a feeling of righteous indignation. Also, there’s the added advantage of getting a forum where it’s socially acceptable to shout your beliefs at other people, which regardless of its utility and efficacy (or lack thereof), is a lot of fun.
Unfortunately, it leads to a deep intellectual rot, as good ideas commingle with ridiculous ones without vetting, and protests obsessed with self-interest leave vital political action undone. Nowhere was this more apparent than in the run-up to the Iraq war. The Left had a critical message to convey which might have saved the country from the fiasco, but its record of protest silliness left it marginalized in the media, and the bad habits of letting everyone say their own thing meant the message got muffled. Despite the odiousness of the organization, I drove to DC to take part in the ANSWER protest on MLK Day in 2003, hoping that a mass demonstration of opposition might change the media narrative.
Unfortunately, as we now all agree, it was a complete mess. While I’d wager that 95% of the marchers were sane and focused, the stage at the rally on the mall was overrun with every last form of Leftist aggrievement, from slavery reparations to Tibet to abortion access. About halfway down the route I found myself uncomfortably next to a Palestinian group leading chants of “long live the Intifada.” I finally lost it when, in the press of the crowd, someone pressed a heavy leaflet into my hands asking us to consider “peace online,” advocating for open source software. SOFTWARE! We were trying to stop an insane war, and someone thought it was a good idea to muddle the mess with screeds against Microsoft. (I hate them as much as the next geek, but really!)
Returning to the Teabagging events (is there any better sign that the GOP has lost the young than that nobody along the way warned them about that name?), you have a group of people feeling powerless and increasingly at odds with the dominant political discourse. They are convinced, as the Protest Left was, that the majority of the country would agree if only they knew, if only they heard a little more. This isn’t the beginning of a revival of political power, however, it’s the beginning of a ride off to the la-la land of discombobulated nuttiness and well-deserved political irrelevance.
Take a word of advice from the Left, guys — until you engage the country where it is, instead of scolding it about where you’d like it to be, you’re going to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Until then, enjoy the shouting — it’s about all you’ll get out of the teabags other than tea.
Skippy,
The protests were not held by the GOP or sanctioned or supported by the GOP. You seem amused at the ignorance of those that selected teabagging as the name for the protests. Wrap you hand around this, everybody who went to a teabagging protest would be happy to teabag any and all members of both parties. Get it? You seem mired in the belief that one is either with you as a democrat or against you as a republican but most of us are sick to death of both of them since there is little difference between them other than the republicans are more quick to can their ethical dirtbags and outright criminals where the democrats tend to continue to cherish their dirtbags forever and continue to reelect them until they die in office.
On the GOP website you can send a teabag to your [least] favorite Democrat. So “held by?” No. But supported? Most definitely. Whatever the initial impetus, the “Tea party” movement gained quite a bit of momentum out of Fox News marketing and the support of Republican politicians.
SNA? Let me get this straight, Fox News and the one GOP website got this kind of traction across the nation? Let’s even add in a few talk radio hosts which, let’s be honest, they’re on during the work-day while people with jobs are, you know, not listening to news radio but actually working.
Seems like the momentum built on an idea rather than a rent-a-crowd moment over the cause-du-jour.
I find it particularly interesting that Fox is being blamed as the instigator over this, most likely because Hannity works for them.
So, like, that makes him as much a bellweather on public opinion as Walter “The War is Lost” Cronkite?
Cronkite caused Nixon to admit defeat in Vietnam and change policy to ending the war.
I wonder, will CBS, NBC, ABC, and the print media have the gall to say a nerd on talk radio and a startup broadcast network from the 1980′s are now the molders of public opinion?
Or will they say the public is being led by lesser institutions, thus explaining how they protest for the wrong reasons?
Seems to me we’re seeing that now. Eventually, the proles see that the emperor has no clothes.
Funny that the lesson used to be told to kids before bedtime and still seems alien to media magnates.
But then, there was once a book entitled “What’s wrong with Kansas.” The author never did ask the voters of Kansas what they thought on the matter.
– Max
I merely pointed out the GOP website to demonstrate that the protests were, in fact, supported by the Republican party. The tea parties were also heavily advertised and promoted by FoxNews, conservative columnists, and radio personalities, which helped the idea spread.
The book is entitled “What’s the Matter With Kansas?”
In my experience when someone feels the need to comstantly shout out in every forum available that something is not partisan it means it is.
Two words, skippy – you wish.
I’m only in my thirties, and this is at least the third time the Republican Party has been pronounced dead or seriously derelict in my lifetime. Meanwhile, conservatives have babies, and liberals largely don’t. Family political orientation is the number one indicator for how a person will associate, politically, as an adult. The long term prognosis for “progressivism” in the US truly is terminal.
I’m in my fifties. I’ve seen both parties rise and fall several times. The Republicans will probably pick up seats in the mid term elections-but the key factor won’t be birthing babies, but how the economy is doing.
The Republicans have got to settle the “RINO” debate. That’s going to drive their ability to unify as a party. The biggest difference between 1994 and now is the idea of the “one big tent” is gone.
The RINOs destroyed the big tent by repeatedly betraying the gassroots supporters of the party.
There really is no debate on RINOs. The grassroots know who they are, Snowe, Specter, McCain and others. They tend to vote left and support much of the left-wingnut agenda. We know who they are and are sick of them.
Even now, they are supporting much of the Obamanation’s agenda.
So to be a Republican you have to believe a certain way-and only that way? How well did that work out in 2008?
Sounds to me like the party needs its own version of Obama. And probably the closest guy to do that is Romney.
Trying to reinforce the 10th story of a building with a rotting foundation is an exercise in futility.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
John Adams
Best slogan I saw was “Give me liberty or give me debt”.
Ah Skippy,
What would we be without your sage comments?
Wander for 40 years with a whole lot of shouting? I don’t think so. What I do actually think is that the state and local gov’t is soaking us more than the feds. By the time I take the deductions for state and local I pay a small amount (of the 50% taxation that I do pay) to the Feds.
This has to stop.
Does the state of NY really want us to move? Because we will if they make it any more obvious. You can all sell Amway to each other and we will silently slink away.
I’m glad I went to the protest tonight.
For the most part, the TeaParty in Santa Clarita, CA, focused on the situation in the state. Hundreds of animated protesters, many with clever signs pointing at ALL the politicians in Sacramento. Like we need to take on the smaller gorilla first, then go after the big fella.
Only coverage I’m seeing is FoxNews, KFI640 radio (John & Ken) & Twitter.
Oh, here’s the worst coverage possible: http://www.wptz.com/money/19188407/detail.html
My conclusion is that parts of middle America are just about finished with the status quo. Where this will lead, and how far it will go before the Federals decide to make it go away remains to be seen. But the fact remains, they are losing the support of the tax-paying center.
Their support comes from the people and groups that are net consumers of government services. What sort of business model do you follow when you push in that direction? Most of us are old enough to see how that worked out for the old Soviet Union. It leads to gulags. Ya’ know, for dissent.
I take umbrage with all politicians at letting the current administration get away with this oppressive taxation.
I have a 10 year old daughter. When she graduates from High School, at 18 years of age, her portion of the debt service on THIS YEARS expenditure will be close to $200,000.00! That’s simply servicing the debt, NOT paying off any of the principle, nor paying towards whatever will be spent in the coming 8 years, nor whatever her normal taxes might be.
That is an entire house. How are any of our children to afford a home, or college, or perhaps even a car when they are starting their lives out that far in debt?
The recent spending by our government has gone from oppressive to obscene, and these local anti-tax rallies are just warming up. It isn’t a right or left thing. It’s an AMERICAN thing, and those who dismiss these small skirmishes, mock the attendees and generally ignore what is happening do so at their own peril.
You can completely fill a glass with water. You can even overfill it somewhat, and surface tension will still hold the water together. But there will come a point when there is one single drop too many, and the whole thing comes apart.
We are one drop shy of that point.
AW1Tim/
“We are one drop shy of that point.”
Sort of like that collodial suspension experiment we all did in HS Chemistry, right? You know, where the precipitant is added to the beaker of clear liquid a drop at a time with the solution remaining crystal clear until about at the 23rd drop the beaker turns
instantaneously a cloudy, totally opaque affair. (sort of like what happens with your swimming pool if you get the chemistry wrong, LOL.)
AW1 Tim, I hate to argue with a guy I usually agree with, but I think your numbers are off. $200,000 X about 300 Million people (The U.S. is bigger than that, but I’m rounding) is $600 Trillion. I don’t think every person in America will be responsible for $200,ooo a year to just pay the interest on the debt, since our annual GDP is only about $15 Trillion.
This is kind of like the people who’ve been saying don’t spend the stimulus money, just give it to us and we’ll all have half a million dollars. Nobody bothers to do the math.
I do think the government is spending way too much and agree with the protests.
I couldn’t go to the protest in Madison being that I am a stay at home mom with three little ones who is also expecting, but *my parents* went! And, I just found out that my friend’s parents went, too.
{insert shock and awe here}
Yep, they’ve certainly awakened a sleeping giant!
Heather? I couldn’t go today either, for my wife is a stay at home mom and today was her day to take liberty and run out.
I tried to do my regular job via the laptop plus feed the kid, change the diapers, read the books…
Did I ever mention that the stay-at-home Mom’s have a tougher job than most of us who work in offices?
Sleeping giant is the proper term.I’d like to see what happens when taxes eat up what they’d intended to take from the family budget for college for the little ankle-biter.
I’m thinking the soccer mom vote is thinking beyond the loan for the minivan and is thinking of the loan given their kids.
But that may be only wishful thinking on my part.
– Max
That is what has some worried. The attendees of the tea parties are sacrificing more than getting up before noon to attend. Not to mention, they’ve actually bathed in the last week.
Best sign I saw: “Spread my work ethic not my earnings”
JKB/
You’re right. That IS the best sign! (at least of any I’ve seen or heard.)
Skippy @ 10.
I’m confused. Is that your writing, or are you quoting another author? Don’t care, just curious.
In any event, that’s just about the most condescending thing I’ve ever seen from you. If the Tea Party (NOT The Teabag) movement had a record of 20 years of failure, you might have a point. But we’ve seen a broad swath of citizenry moved to action based almost exclusively on the taxation and spending of the various levels of government. Are the GOP and various other organization trying to ride coattails? Sure. But that isn’t what is moving this trend.
Why did the left seize on protests as their default method? Because they had seen it work before. But they failed to recognize that there must be a critical mass of public opinion to support the goals of the protesters. That’s why no one really cares if 10 people protest genital mutilation in the third world. But the Vietnam protests eventually reflected public opinion as to the fruitfulness of the war effort. That was why they were successful.
I think the promise of the Tea Party movement is a lack of rigid ideology, and rather an embrace of fiscal common sense.
And before you throw the Bush years in my face, I wasn’t too happy about spending then either. Nor were any number of people on the right and in the center. But we predicted, and events have proven us right, that a Democrat President would put the spendthrift habits of Bush to shame as, well, bush league.
Its a quote-that’s why its in italics.
Don’t we usually try to identify the source of the quote? A cite perhaps, to let us judge the validity of the statement?
Yea, but sometimes I’m in a hurry and don’t have time to put in the HTML link-which is what our host likes.
Hey, Biden made that mistake…but, well, it still didn’t matter…
Advice: Don’t be a Biden….
[...] Lex / Neptunus Lex: Tea Parties, and that — I confess to be a little bemused … [...]
MK Hamm commented that she was totally “ready to report some craziness” if she saw it. But there was NONE.
Seems some people realize you can protest/demonstrate without trying to inflame the opposition.
I sent a letter to our local dog training aid on the topic:
Finally, hope that I can believe in: the Tea Party protests occurring around our Nation today are gratifyingly non-partisan. In many cases where Republican legislators have tried to attach themselves to these grassroots protests, they’ve been politely told “no thanks.” It appears that our government’s normal tactic of creating divisiveness in the People to deflect sustained, cohesive calls for change is not working.
There is a growing movement to make the collective voice of those of us who are concerned about the vast collection of prolific and unsustainable spending policies that our ever-growing federal government has been creating for the last 50 years be heard by our so-called leaders in Washington DC.
The movement as it stands today appears to be agnostic to political party boundaries and steadfastly determined to stay that way. Both parties have had ample opportunity to rein in government spending, and both have failed miserably. While both parties pay lip service to the idea of fiscal constraint while campaigning, neither practices what they preach once they attain the legislative and executive power that they crave.
This bonding together of concerned citizens that transcends party boundaries finally gives me hope that our entire country has not succumbed to the radical polarization and fiscal insanity that will ultimately bankrupt us all. I am finally starting to see change that I can believe in, and it is most assuredly NOT coming from our entrenched political class or our new president. Rather, it is coming from a non-partisan grassroots effort to tell Washington that enough is enough. This gives me great hope.
VX, funny comment about CS.
Much truth to there being moments where things change in a “BAM” style, and the world is left to wonder how it happened.
Regards,
AW1Tim: That was also pretty much my experience at last night’s event in Raleigh.
I did keep an eye out for those dangerous military veterans though!
MissBirdlegs: Both of my Federal Reps said that they were not aware of the event being held at the State Capital, though they would be happy to pass along the information to the Senator/Congressman if I would send them a letter. Talking points indeed. Reminded me of Gravitas.
My other Senator (Republican) said that he could not be at the event. Did not like the answer, but at least it was an open and honest answer.
Since people are protesting higher taxes, it might be worth noting what taxes are actually going up-and most of these don’t affect anyone here. Which is what makes these demonstrations so counterproductive.
1. Eliminating the Advance Earned Income Tax Credit. This isn’t a proposal to eliminate the EITC — it’s just a proposal to eliminate a particular way of claiming the EITC that is extremely complicated, that almost no one uses, and that leads to a high level of tax error. As far as I know, eliminating this is not controversial.
2. Letting the top two income tax rates revert from 33 to 35% and from 36 to 39.6%, respectively. This is obviously a tax increase. But it is also (1) Something that would happen anyway were the Bush tax cuts to expire on schedule; (2) Something that isn’t happening till 2011; (3) Something that Obama repeatedly said he would do; and (4) Something that will affect only those households with annual income over $250,000.
3. Eliminating the phaseout of personal exemptions and itemized deductions for high-income taxpayers. (This is complicated because it involves … a phaseout of a phaseout of a complicated law. Explanation here.) But the end result will affect the exemptions and deductions of only those households that earn more than $250,000 a year.
4. Limiting the top charitable deduction rate to 28%. I’ve written about this many times elsewhere and I think it’s a tempest in a teapot.
5. Increasing the top capital gains and dividends tax rate to 20%. Again, this (1) will start in 2011; (2) would have happened were the Bush tax cuts allowed to expire on schedule; and (3) affects only those families with annual income above $250,000.
So are the majority of the protesters worried about taxes that won’t affect them? Perhaps when the tax-day protesters worry about higher taxes, they mean to protest anticipated future taxes that will result from higher present debt. (I’m certainly concerned about that!) But I’m not sure a protest in favor of the abstract notion of Ricardian equivalence has the same drama as a protest against higher taxes. Or am I missing something?
Perhaps when the tax-day protesters worry about higher taxes, they mean to protest anticipated future taxes that will result from higher present debt. (I’m certainly concerned about that!)
Yeah, that’s pretty much it.
I know it’s tough thinking more than 5 minutes into the future, but try it sometime. It can keep you from running headlong into a wall.
I’m frankly insulted every time I hear this argument. The implication is that since the fleecing hasn’t started yet we shouldn’t worry about it, and we’re clearly too stupid to worry about the fleecing we’ll get tomorrow.
But will the fleecing start? If this is really the kind of grass roots effort everyone says it is-the Republicans will take back Congress in 2010 and the White House in 2012. The Bush tax cuts will be made permanent and the budget will cut.
Federal spending -will still be large though.
When you have one entire party that does nothing but pander to the half of this country’s population that pay no income tax and ride to victory on these dirtbags coattails then we who do pay income taxes have a problem since it is much harder to elect people who are willing to forgo the votes of that large a percentage of the population and feel the urge to outpander the Democrats. This society is growing aware of the fact that it cannot sustain itself if half the population continue to vote for bread and circuses at the expense of the rest of the people.
The tax law needs to be completely rewritten and its burden needs to fall equally on the shoulders of all the people.
Skippy,
At both Tea Parties I attended yesterday (Fredericksburg ~500 people & San Antonio WAY more than that), the speakers not only talked about taxation, but also about out of control government spending and economic policy. It’s not just taxation, but the spending ethics of Congress, both sides. Additionally, I saw several signs and speakers mentioning the doubling of the money supply in the past couple of months. See here for citation.
All three issues reflect my concern that this government has lost the basic understanding that in a Democracy, they work for us as the “consent of the governed”. The Tea Party movement in my mind is to remind them of that understanding.
But in the short term at least-the infusion of cash is allowing a lot of people ( like me) to refiance mortages to a lower interest rate. That’s a good thing-and was the intent. However every one has acknowledged there is a dark side to it-and that’s possible inflation downstream.
So if we elect Republicans in 2010/12 there won’t be any of that fleecing? What, we just won’t have to pay back all those trillions? That’s a pretty good trick.
The money to pay that debt must come from taxes at some point. I don’t think any of the candidates will be able to change basic math, so to free up those dollars there must be either a tax increase, or a services decrease. Probably both.
For the record, having Republicans elected in 2010/12 would be a case of less bad rather than actually good. It’s been a while since fiscal responsibility could be found on either side of the aisle.
From what I’ve been hearing, this isn’t a protest against higher taxes, but a protest against unchecked Government spending, at every level. While I’m sure some are there to protest taxes, quite a few want the spending to stop. Stop the spending, and the taxes will come in check all on there own I suspect.
Factually inaccurate, there Skippy:
In 2008, 33% rate starts at $200K AGI for couples. Ya g0tta stop repeating the party line
I think he made that point by breaking them out separately earlier in the sentence.
I attended an event yesterday. Originally it was going to be a small event being put together by a couple of my octogenarian friends. I think there were going to be about 15 of us and I said I’d bring my kids.
The big thing they kept stressing to me is they didn’t want it to be Anti-Obama. This was to be non-partisan. It’s where we were and how we got here and how it’s still being handled that’s pissing everyone off.
And then suddenly a talk show got wind of it, it ended up on the internet and I got a frantic email a few days before asking me to make up programs, which I did, and we ended up with 300 people yesterday.
Starting with 15 just a few weeks ago.
It was peaceful, polite, fun. There were a lot of American flags, someone brought cookies (big with my teenage boys as their passion is eating), and I was able to show my boys how they can exercise 1st Amendment rights… in America it’s a wonderful thing.
I’m an independent. I was surprised at who I saw turn out… we saw a lot of people we knew. There was a mix of folks I know who are independents along with strong conservatives. None of them were affluent… all were middle class people sick of the spending issues.
I’d do it again in a heartbeat. Is it going to change anything? No. But people are talking and the government is aware that there are rumblings and the people are not impressed or happy.
Skippy, would you please include the links with the stuff you’re quoting? I’d love to look up the rest of it.
The first quote is from Andrew Sullivan’s blog here,
and the second is here-from The Atlantic business column.
Yeah, I think I’d be a little reticent to admit to using Andi Sullivan to support my argument.
Has he figured out yet who Trig Palin’s real mom is yet?
The fact that you quote Sullivan and apparently agree with his histronic ramblings disheartens me. Although we don’t agree on most things Skippy,you have caused me to lose all respect for your opinion.
So you don’t accept that Sullivan is a conservative?:-)
I read all kinds of things-after all I read Lex and I don’t agree with every thing he posts either-but its worth reading.
Jeebus, Skippy-sama, you just jumped the shark big time!
Auntie Andy is as conservative as he is straight. In fact, after his psychotically stupid obsession with Trig last year, he has demonstrated his inability to even keep up with the National Enquirer.
As for the “That should not be surprising-they all get their info from the same sources” crap, that’s the same kind of ad hominem I’ve seen from the MSM for several years now. I’ve been following the Tea Party (NOT “teabag”) protests for several months, and it’s quite self-evident that neither the GOP nor Fox has anything to do with their activity. This is directed at least as much to StupidSNA as to you. He’s the one pushing the “Fox connection.” I suppose he is incapable of grasping the concept of a genuine grassroots (vis a vis astroturf) movement.
That said, I agree completely with comment 10.2.1. Strongly disagree with 10.2.1.1 reply, as I consider Romney the “GOP Obama.” That is, the slick sucker who carefully triangulates his current position on whatever’s popular just now. Ok, so that’s an agreement, since you say he’s the Republican version of Romney. Heh.
So you got an easier mortgage from the bailout plan? Lucky you! What about the rest of us saps who aren’t freeloading? No, really; you have an obvious financial interest in Obama’s plan, but you try to argue it’s still just good sense?
As for that “war I didn’t vote for” crap, go bitch at the spineless cowards in charge of the Democratic Party who didn’t have the balls to vote “no” when they had the chance. Talk about kicking the can down the road. Not to mention the hypocrisy of people like “Fat” Teddy K voting for Bush’s budget-busters, then whining about the deficit.
There’s a lot of follow-up comments, and this is running long, soo… No, the Tea Party movement isn’t strictly Republican, nor conservative. Yes, the Bush administration contributed to the problem, but the leading Dems jumped in with both feet to help. It’s a bi-partisan pooch-screw.
No, just because you didn’t like the war (recall that Lincoln was viciously vilified by the then-current “common wisdom” the last couple years of that war) doesn’t mean it won’t turn out to have been a good idea. I make no claims to infallibility, but I do try to keep an open mind about the eventual outcome.
What Obama has proposed outspends Operation OEF by a factor of one hundred. Even if the war turns out to have been a complete fiasco, what Barry plans is far, far worse. At least national defense was inscribed in the Constitution. I missed the article which describes how the executive branch spends a hundred billion dollars to bail out a private company, fires said private executives (which article was that in?), and generally creates a debt well over one-tenth of our (shrunken) GDP.
Skippy, if you want to live under a state-controlled socialist government, I suggest Great Britain, France, Sweden, or Germany.
Casey,
Can’t reply to your reply. (I really liked the old comment format better). Lots to digest there.
Kiplinger recommended that when the Fed infused the money into the economy, it would be a good opportunity to refinance and reap the benefits of a lower house payment and more money to save. Are you saying I’m a freeloader because I followed that advice? I don’t undertand that-interest rates are down now.
Skippy, care to address that “stimulus” package and all the pork in it?
What about it? I’m in the Krugman school that says it is not big enough.
I wrote Sen Shelby a letter when the Omnibus Bill was passed. Amazingly enough I got a two page reply back from him talking about how earmarks are not bad and they are benefitting Alabama’s citizens. One of those pork projects is going to get the road into where I work widened and new gates on the Arsenal, so two thumbs way up for that.
I’ll tell you what I think is wrong with earmarks and Sen. Shelby is just another one who fails to se the rising anger about this practice. To hear the supporters of this practice you would think this is a well established practice for the life of the republic. It actually dates from the last 25 years or so and got started when a University in MA hired a lobbyist firm in DC who managed to convince a House Appropriator (or more likely his staffer) to earmark research funds to that specific institution bypassing the previous merit based grant program run out of NIH. The system therefore being gamed and the lobbyist (who got something like 20 percent IIRC) finding a new source of revenue (billing by the hour just being so pedestrian) the game was on.
The problem with earmarks not that they are always for things that are not good. It is because they are always for things that are so narrow that they would not stand up to an up on down vote on their own merits or call into question the Federal Government’s role in the projects funding in the first place.
Paving the road outside the arsenal is probably a good idea. If the good citizen’s of Alabama want it paved they should do so. If the need for paving the road is largely caused by its proximity to the DOD arsenal then I would suggest the DOD budget should have money in it to provide a proportionate contribution to the good citizen’s of Alabama to do so.
What I object to is Congress in effect saying “we can’t do our jobs or agree on reasonable approaches to providing government services so we have to do it in this underhanded manner”. Those, like Congressman Murtha the rest who seem to relish their role in expanding the practice seem to enjoy acting more like mafia kingpins than true national representatives.
That some good things get done as a result on serves to prolong a practice that has no place in our republic IMHO.
Skippy, I also wrote to Sen. Shelby taking him to task about how many earmarks were showing up for AL. I got the same two page letter you got, which didn’t pacify me in any way.
I think it’s a mistake to allow politicians and the media (or anyone else) make the tea party protests out to be all about taxes. That lets them say “your taxes are no more than they were last year, you greedy bastards.” It’s clearly an effort to disingenuously distract from the concern over long-term damage to the country by focusing on short-term issues.
Let’s make it clear: the Tea Party protests should NOT be about current or short-term changes to the tax structure. They should NOT be about what any individual does or does not pay today or next year.
The Tea Party protests should be about the unsustainable and unaffordable spending that started with Bush but has only increased under the stewardship of the party and president that promised to do exactly the opposite. This prolific spending will of a necessity eventually lead to national bankruptcy, devastating inflation, or huge tax hikes. Or a combination thereof.
It is the entitlement class and the party that panders to them, aided by a compliant and complicit press, that are opposed to the Tea Party demonstrations, either through blind partisanship, total ignorance of the eventual consequences, or their own form of greed/class jealousy.
If the entitlement class allows itself to be fooled into thinking that they will somehow avoid feeling serious pain when this spending finally catches up with us because they believe that they aren’t affected by higher taxes, then they are displaying a willful ignorance about exactly who it is that gets hurt the worst by inflation and hidden taxes. By the time they figure it out, it will be too late.
Regarding the quoted article from Skippy #10, specifically:
“This isn’t the beginning of a revival of political power, however, it’s the beginning of a ride off to the la-la land of discombobulated nuttiness and well-deserved political irrelevance.
Take a word of advice from the Left, guys — until you engage the country where it is, instead of scolding it about where you’d like it to be, you’re going to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Until then, enjoy the shouting — it’s about all you’ll get out of the teabags other than tea.”
My memory may be getting fuzzy, but I have this recollection of a teabag protest in the early ’90′s after the Clinton administration raised taxes. People mailed teabags to Congress. The Republicans got their majority soon after running on the “Contract with America” that spoke of fiscal responsibility, balanced budgets, etc. which was sadly wasted during the Bush years.
So, last time the tea thing worked OK – wonder why this time it’s a ride into la-la land?
George V.
They did not get their majority by sending tea bags -they got it because of Harry and Louise. And because the Democrats let themselves be painted with a broad brush.
Skippy, not my point. My point is this writer says the teabag protest will marginalize conservatives as loonies. I disagree. There is a difference between generally well-behaved protests of government policy using a symbol from history and protests involving such things as overweight elderly naked men riding bicycles.
George V.
Skippy, how about that pork-riddled stimulus package…the one we’ll paying back for our whole life, and our kids? Still waiting for that answer.
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Byron,
See 27.1 above. I’m going to be paying for a 1 trillion dollar war for a long time. That was for Arabs, whom I an not a fan of. At least this goes for Americans.
So your best justification for wasting money now is that we wasted money before?
Yeah, that makes sense. I’m with you 100%.
Skippy, have you actually looked through even part of the “stimulus” package?
You are so getting to be an apologist for the Democrat party.
Whatever-every man needs a hobby.
So you toss out a lengthy set of quotes and then just too flippant answers in return. Can’t you at least discuss it with Byron?
Actually, I think a simple “I haven’t read it” or “I’ve read it and here’s what I think about the pork would keep the old shipfitter from having a mini-stroke.
It was but a simple request..
I have read it-and while its flawed, the basic premise is not. I support the idea of a stimulus-don’t think it is big enough, and I think it might have been targeted a little differently for better results. It was Obama’s mistake to leave it to Congress to write the bill. He should have crafted a bill and sent it to them.
Just because it was imperfect in execution does not mean that it was not needed.
I’ve been pretty clear on that elsewhere in this thread-at the time I just did not feel like arguing with Byron.
“Concerted action only occurs when fear of the known is greater than the fear of the unknown.”
At least this goes for Americans.
Except, of course, when it doesn’t. With a billion going to Hamas, unaccounted dollars (from the most transparent administration evah!!) being filtered through American banks to bailout foreign banks, etc. it seems pretty disingenuous to revel in the domesticity of it all.
From the bailout-or from the War Appropriation? Different spending bills.
Do you seriously think this is all about one bill? Or might it possibly be about the aggregate trillions?
I attended the event here in the Dallas suburb of Rockwall – a town of about 30,000. Typical “bedroom” community is probably the best descriptor. It was held on the grounds of the City Hall. I was surprised at the turnout – estimates from the podium that were provided by a so-called “cow counter” (this being Texas after all) put the number at around 2,000. I’d have guessed somewhat less but at least 1,000 and more like 1,500 to my untrained eye.
What got me was the variety of folks there in age and apparent background. I’d say about 20 percent had signs and about 90 percent of those were hand made. The number of elderly with hand made signs showed me the Greatest Generation isn’t ready to throw in the towel yet.
While Taxes were the theme I got a sense that the greater anger was at the Congress’ and Administration’s current and past irresponsible spending and the current efforts to greatly expand the role of Government in our lives. I read in the Dallas paper that a crowd perhaps two or three times as large was in Dallas and there were other protests in the metro area.
The crowd was, as expected well behaved and the speeches offered were pointedly not from elected of any party officials. It was billed and seemed to represent “we the people” in that it was more about the people assembled being disgusted with politics as usual and seemed determined to fight to overturn the direction we have been headed for years and are on a very accelerated path as of late.
The catalyst for the anger if there is a common denominator was the stimulus bill. The “ram it through ” without any real deliberation (Congress didn’t even read it); the “here is an opportunity” to load the thing with pork projects that would never stand on their own merits; the arrogance of those in DC who betray by their actions a deep distrust if not outright contempt for the integrity, intelligence, or understanding of the people who elect them to their positions seemed to have reached a tipping point for those in attendance to “take to the streets”.
As is my custom I read the Washington Post this morning online to remain connected with my previous area of residence. Other than some editorial pieces the protest in DC that was dismissed as if Space Aliens had gathered in Lafayette park in a downpour at the behest of Fox News, there was not a single article on the 1000 or so gatherings that happened yesterday. Now color my some kind of nutcase but I would think that if thousands of citizens gathered to peacefully register their dissatisfaction with the ship of state that might merit a mention on the front page.
But this type of dismissal (Presidential spokesman Robert Gibbs was quoted as saying President Obama was “unaware” of the protest) is exactly the kind of things that stokes the anger expressed yesterday. One imagines Marie Antoinette blissfully ignoring the storm clouds in her day.
My overall sense that those in our Nation’s Capital can keep on ignoring this to their peril. I didn’t get the sense at all that those hundreds who showed up in Rockwall yesterday are ready to just let this go and the more the “establishment” (to use a 60′s term) ignores them them more determined they will become.
One impression. Remembering the scenes of the National Mall the day after the Inauguration that looked like Yasgur’s farm after Woodstock I was impressed when the organizers asked everyone to clean up as they were leaving – and they did exactly that.
Something profoundly mature and sobering about this emerging movement. Code Pink this ain’t.
OldT6/
Let them eat cake–it’s patriotic–a duty, even.
Skippy: The point I originally made about a “sleeping giant awakening” still stands. The fact that many were out protesting taxes is not the point. What is relavant is the fact that ordinary, non-elite, working class americans WERE protesting, something almost unheard of less than a year ago.
In my humble opinion, both parties had better come to grips with the fact that the giant is now awake and woe to the group that ignores him.
Sadly, I had to work yesterday, but mass protests aren’t the only tool available for us to make our feelings known. I spend my lunch hour daily signing petitions online, emailing my congress critters, and encouraging my circle to do the same. Newt Gingrich has a site http://www.americansolutions.com/
that always has some good, non partisan, common sense petitions to sign. There are more than what’s on the front page
Interesting Skippy. I get it that you think this is an echo chamber of “groupthink” and that we all are not quite as bright as you; however, I find it enlightening that you personal knowledge of the economic strata/situation of most of us here and can make a blanket statement that we are not effected by these taxes.
You know the bad part about this medium is that its one dimensional-so there is no way to shade anything with inflection or nuance. If you are making over 250,000 per year and are affected-you have my utmost congratulations.
Skippy, not to flog a dead horse, but even if I don’t make enough to be taxed at a higher rate, don’t I have the right to complain about higher spending, and what I see as unreasonable taxation on folks that make more than me?
Sure you have the right to complain-and assemble. That’s a bedrock right under the Bill of Rights. Same as I have the right to complain about the growing income disparity between upper and middle class and the increasing numbers of not so middle class folks who don’t get the opportunity to move up.
I’m not afraid of higher domestic spending-because at the end of the day-at some point-the government needs to take on the problems that its politicians have kicked down the road for way too long. For me the issue is not spending-but finding ways to match revenue to spending. I want government to fix these things. I honestly believe that it is the right thing to do-and I want the President to succeed and in the process bring about a complete and total repudiation of most of the ideas that were in vogue in the last eight years. If that makes me an apologist so be it-Obama said he was going to do things. So don’t be suprised that he is.
Can it be done better-yes. Can Cognress be more disciplined-yes. But change is never going to happen as long as both sides assume the other is fundamentally evil. That’s how corroded I believe things have become.
The point is the politicians need to take a serious look at actually cutting out waste: Dump programs that have no significant impact, as planned. Make the hard decisions, tell some people they aren’t on the gravy train (e.g PMA in PA) any longer, because it’s killing “US” economically.
If the average Joe/Jane is being reprimanded by politicians to shut up and pay more, while losing equity/retirement account values, then the politicians need to join “US.”
Don’t tell me you told your sailors to suck it up when there was a tough Op that was stressing the system, that you went to your stateroom and watched TV, while they did repairs/etc to get airframes back in an Up status. If you’re a product of our common background, I can’t believe you weren’t making sure they had waht they needed, be it tools, parts, chow, or extra liberty in the next port. But…you expect politician leader to not do the same?
Same thing applies. What the hell is wrong with asking our “leaders” to take a sacrifice with us?
It’s too much for too long. Asking to spend more, because more has been spend is merely kicking the can down the road.
No leadership, no guts. If they can hang on long enough, they can get the people elected behind them to take the heat….sweet deal, huh?
Govt needs to accept, for what ever reason, they can’t drain the economic life blood out of this country for their political gain. Wasteful programs are there to buy votes, ergo, it’s political gain for them to not grow a pair and do what’s needed. Remember BRAC..of course you do. They sorta sacked up then, but they can’t do it now. It’s not ancient history.
Get a clue….or tell me if I max out my credit cards, my credit rating will go up, or something equally ludicrous. It’s the same reasoning as you use.
I agree with you that the income disparity is a real issue and policies need to be adopted that will encourage it to be fixed.
A far simpler tax code where everyone pays (it can still be progressive) something and eliminations of most if not all deductions would be a worthy reform.
The current approach is just more of the same spend, spend and add more layers of complexity to an already broken system. That isn’t change I can believe in.
The stimulus is BS. Should be repealed and start over. Fat chance of that as it would require admitting a mistake. Deity’s don’t do that.
Would one of you folks put me some knowledge? Where in the Constitution is income disparity listed as a concern of the federal gummint?
Look, there will always be an expanding gap in incomes. Why? Because there is a fixed and finite lower level- Zero! but there is no upper limit to income. Any time prosperity expands, the upper limit is raised. And that is a good thing. Why are you jealous of that? My only concern in that arena is that the law treat rich and not so rich alike. And that isn’t addressed by taxing the rich, it is addressed by preventing the corrupting effects of money on politics. How to do that is a topic for another day.
Skippy, you say you aren’t so concerned with domestic spending, but you are concerned about maximizing revenue to pay for it. Again, we run into the finite/infinite dichotomy. There is only so much money the government can bring in, but there is no limit to how much it can spend. That’s eventually going to have a catastrophic outcome. Like a gambler having a bad run, there’s only so many markers you can take out from the house before they want you to pay.
As for repudiation of the last 8 years, aside from the wars, what spending has Bush done that Obama or the Congress won’t increase?
This ain’t so much about high taxes as it is about unchecked Governement spending. That’s where the complaint is with most people.
I will gladly pay more to help the homeless or the helpless. But not a penny for the careless or clueless.
I understand the income disparity argument. But the solution lies in raising the bottom, not dragging down the top. We have a public education system that spends over $260 billion a year — 0ver $183K per graduate in some states — #2 in the world in spending. Yet, the outcomes are abysmal — #26 of 30 OECD members. We spend 7.4% of GDP to rank with nations that spend around half of what we spend.
And the remedy to this, is to drag down the top? Seriously?
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In 1973, the National Debt was approximately $466 billion. about $2,200 for every man, woman and child. As of last December, it was approximately $10.7 trillion, a 23-fold increase with per capita at about $35,000. This year’s budget deficit will raise the debt to approximately $12 trillion.
What hasn’t been discussed as much are so-called “unfunded liabilities.” like Social Security and Medicare. These total an estimated $52 trillion
That’s Sixty-four trillion … about $200,000 per man, woman, and child. My point is: Who is going to pay for this? Not those of us over the age of 50. It will be our children, grandchildren and probably our great-grandchildren.
Congress…doing to “them,” while lining their pockets….morally bankrupt people running the show. If not, we’d at least hear some loud and clear and strong voices, saying exactly why this shouldn’t happen.
All I hear is crickets or “if we don’t to this the sky will fall…in ten minutes…here, sign this!”
X Brad TC
The government can’t stop income disparity, but it does have a right to be concerned about it and try to shape the social conversation to bring executive compensation more into line with a reasonable man’s view point. The”just let all the boats float on a rising tide” analogy falls apart because in the global world,a lot of small boats are getting sunk to keep a few yachts afloat. When jobs are being off sourced to improve the bottom line-that’s hardly good for the domestic tranquility. Taken to its most extreme-it tends to drive the natives out into the street with pitchforks and nooses. Same could be said for spending too. One could argue that yesterday was the opening act in that idea.
Re: your second paragraph there has to be a way to reform the tax code to make tax revenue be provided and to pay for the needed health care changes / retirement scheme. I think a flat tax coupled with a national consumption tax is probably the solution-as well as a health insurance premium and contribution to a retirement plan similar to what many governments in Asia require. Now whether that could be sold in the current environment-I kind of doubt it.
Skippy, you admit that the government has no right to erase income disparity, yet turn around in the same sentence and argue that it should at least attempt to do so. I’d be interested in finding a Constitutional justification of that. Coincidentally, I addressed the topic of government and the markets last night at The Flight Deck.
http://www.neptunuslex.com/Wiki/2009/04/18/governments-and-markets/
Secondly, as much as I support revising the tax code, you miss the real issue, which isn’t the collection of revenues, but rather the spending. Like I said, there is a real, if unknown limit to what we can collect in taxes. But there appears to be no upper limit on the debt the government is willing to assume. But there is certainly a real, if unknown, upper limit on the level of debt that the economy can support.
XBrad/
I logged this in over at your post on the Flt-Deck (A very fine post, btw–hey everyone, go read!) but thought it should be said here also:
Walter Williams, the black, basket-ball playing economist said it best: “Would you want to play poker with me if I got to change the rules in the middle of the game–and and as often as I like?”
Skip,
You make my head hurt. Over these past 4.6 years I’ve read your “stuff”, you’ve argued from every angle, both sides of every issue and beyond. Your ever changing devil’s advocacy is totally unchartable.
Look. I pay way too much in tax, during a critical juncture in my life and get soooo little back in any service (unearned/unpaid for) it makes me sorta”upset” to see you darting and flitting around the edges of the basic post way up above like a H.S. debater…
You’re a mess man. Your only common theme in the nearly 5 years I can discern is your still lingering mono-like B.D.S. and your righteous aversion to Pat, well, you-know-who…Get fixed.
b2
Skippy is just an Emersonian kinda guy. What self respecting aviator would want to be a little anything?
Redistribution of wealth is not the government’s business nor should it dictate how much profit any business makes, regardless of size and productive capacity.
History shows that the capitalist system works better than the socialist system. We should do away with some tax deductions, rather than jacking up income tax rates to punitive levels . Wealth creation is a product of reinvestment of profits. If the government confiscates “inordinate” profits from corporations it stifles wealth-creating reinvestment. It puts corporations at a competitive disadvantage nationally and globally. This hurts the working man who depends upon the success of his employers and their ability to reinvest in him and his productivity.
Anyone think the government can more effectively reinvest these profits to make an industry grow?
Didn’t think so.