Torture? Some folks will call it head slaps, or sleep deprivation, or even waterboarding.
Like we experienced in SERE school.
Other folks?
They describe it more like this:
When the order came to storm the single-storey property, dozens of heavily armed men in masks and camouflage uniforms – unmarked to conceal their identity – had no difficulty in overwhelming the three women inside. Their captives were driven to a military base.
The soldiers were responding to a tip-off that the eldest of the three, who was in her forties, had been indoctrinating women to sacrifice themselves in Chechnya’s ferocious war between Islamic militants and the Russians. The others captured with her were her latest recruits. One was barely 15.
“At first the older one denied everything,” said a senior special forces officer last week. “Then we roughed her up and gave her electric shocks. She provided us with good information. Once we were done with her we shot her in the head.
“We disposed of her body in a field. We placed an artillery shell between her legs and one over her chest, added several 200-gram TNT blocks and blew her to smithereens. The trick is to make sure absolutely nothing is left. No body, no proof, no problem.” The technique was known as pulverisation.
The young recruits were taken away by another unit for further interrogation before they, too, were executed.
I’m far from saying that one man’s murder excuses another man’s rape. I’m just saying that perspective is important.
Is all.
Update: Meanwhile -
A Russian warship has seized a pirate vessel with 29 people on board off the Somali coast, Russian news reports say.
Guns and navigation equipment were found during a search of the pirate boat, officials were quoted as saying.
They said the suspected pirates were thought to have launched two unsuccessful attacks against a tanker with a Russian crew.
Bad break, kids.
What a good cop/bad cop team we could make with the Russians…. :p
Dangerous waters, eh?
Pirates, PLAN, Russian Navy.
When navigation equipment gets to be incriminating, it isn’t going to be too long before someone’s obit will be “died of enthusiasm while cooperating with authorities.”
Well, you guys did not see any of those captured Chechen videos but the Russian TV showed it all in full and the Russian-language American TV channel rebroadcasted it in full, too… I can even believe that the SOBs from the ACLU would have had the same response… It’s all warm and fuzzy and Geneva convention until the reality blows up in your face, with screams and blood and gore all over you.
Olga, I’ve seen some of the Chechen videos and I’ll say that being captured by those folks, as being captured by the Iraq insurgents, is NOT an option I’d take.
However, I’ll have to disagree about the ACLU or any of the other so-called ‘human rights’ groups. While they might (reluctantly) mouth a platitude or two about the wrongness of what either party in the Chechen conflict was doing, they reserve their most ardent work for activities that can and do harm the United States.
Yes, STEVEC, the cowards at the ACLU, Amnesty Int,. etc., don’t want to incur the ire of the Russians. They reserve their moral outrage for those societies they know won’t put a poisoned pellet in the back of their knee with an umbrella tip or poison their tea with Polonium. Or cut their heads off with a serrated knife in the case of our Islamic brethren.
hmm, disintegration of terrorists is a good idea. Leaves their followers without a martyr to burry.
And makes it a LOT more difficult for the persons “involved” to make a cell phone call to Amnesty Int. to complain..
I just have one question concerning the report.
“The hunt for a nest of female suicide bombers in Chechnya led an elite group of Russian special forces commandos to a small village deep in the countryside.”
So, how exactly do you earn the rating of elite by eschewing marked uniforms and shooting women and kidnapping kids?
Must be some kind of qualification not to be found in our own military. At the risk of opening up an old wound, maybe they did this while wearing berets and the reporter jumped to the obvious conclusion.
“Intelligence was often extracted by breaking their limbs with a hammer, administering electric shocks and forcing men to perform sexual acts on each other. The bodies were either buried in unmarked pits or pulverised.”
Maybe they’re elite because they don’t succumb to the temptation to waterboard prisoners?
I mean, I’m just *asking* here!
There’s such a fine line between elite and illegal, those subtle nuances are probably lost on a yokel like me.
Seriously, how depraved can you get and the media still label you not only an elite unit, but also bypass the obvious lawlessness of the act?
I’d normally expect more from the Times. Then again, 22 years ago I lost most of my respect for print media of any kind.
– Max
Max,
Interesting question. As I recall there was some discussion of the difference between war and warre about 20 years ago in the navy war college.
Lex, on the whole, you have done a *great* job on a very tough task.
At the end of the first quote, you write, “I’m far from saying that one man’s murder excuses another man’s rape. I’m just saying that perspective is important.”
There is another word which I believe is understood as added to the word “perspective” and that is the word “experience”. This is the reason my POW friend suggested that I chill out or drop it. There was a failure to communicate and the failure was me.
MD, to make no bones about it, the Russians have never been Western, but remain deeply Oriental. The word “Spetsnaz,” or Special Forces as rendered, covers a much wider range of skills and capabilities than our “SOF” covers, but they are nonetheless Russia’s elite in terms of weapons and training.
But I respectfully suggest that you spend some more time studying the Chechen people, their history and nature, before casting stones. You may be surprised to realize how thoroughly base and primitive they are, and don’t forget all those Arabs and others who came rushing to the aid of their Muslim brothers against the Russian occupation. Become familiar with the full range of violence they committed. It is not, as Lex said, to excuse, but when you encounter a pack of wild dogs you must kill them. After walking a few miles in their boots, one might gain a better sense of what Spetsnaz were up against. The article only shows them dealing with women and wounded, but neither of them are any less dangerous than the men. Not in that culture (if it can be called that).
I understand your revulsion at the descriptions, but would add that this war had no laws, no signatories to Geneva conventions, and its participants all knew it would be a fight to the death. The Russians sank to abominable depths, but that’s where the Chechens started from. From where I sit, I find it hard to cast stones.
“the Russians have never been Western, but remain deeply Oriental.”
Agree, Zane. My Father used to always remind me when the topic came up of the old saying of his generation (or before): “Scratch a Russian and you’ll find a Tartar.”
Zane, to address your points what the Nazi’s did to the Russians in World War 2 was no less than what we’d call terrorism today. Transportation to death camps, torture, rape, you name it and the Russian peoples saw it.
The Russian Army likewise went to earth and when on the attack did the same things. Got to the point Germans wanted to surrender to Americans rather than Russians though we were allies.
I’m not making excuses here, the depravity of war and terrorism is known. Who could have a sibling blown up by a terrorist and *not* wish to lay waste to their country, their city, their family and in particular that terrorist or soldier starting with an X-acto knife and ending with a tweezer?
That’s just human nature, hurt me or mine and it becomes personal.
But soldiers tend to be professionals, and they take great pride in their achievements. None would, I expect, consider themselves elite for merely shooting the unarmed. It takes a media pundit to attach that honorific.
Which, I expect, is a large part of the problem here.
Media is the perception, and the folks doing the work have better things to do than correct a newspaper or video.
To the public, the media is the source and that taints the professionals.
– Max
MD,
spetsnaz IS the elite branch of Soviet/Russian military. Although I think the ones used in Chechnya for this stuff were from the police spetsnaz. Soviet Union/Russia has 3 spetsnaz: Military (from AF – VDV), Police and GRU (Military Intelligence)
And we chide ourselves into thinking that Gitmo or Abu Graib is “horrible”. Then I read something like this – and wonder why we get so distraught gaining serious information on folks who actually want to kill us.
Makes me think back to the days of MY fraternity initiation and proceeding “Hell Week” in Spring of ’63. LOL. Makes the Abu and Sigma Chi stuff seem like a baby shower they threw for my wife.
The most inventive form of “torture” being told one was going to be branded with a hot iron with the fraternity crest. A pledge would be led to the kitchen and confronted with the red-hot branding iron. Then, while being held (forcefully, natch, as struggling would ensue) the pledge’s shirt would be stripped and the guy holding the poker would circle round behind out of eyesight of the pledge. Then a block of dry ice would be slammed onto the pledge’s rt. shoulder–the pledge would go berzerk and much hilarity from the actives. If the social climate of today had obtained then? Everyone involved would probably STILL be in jail…..
While I’m warming to the subject of fraternity initiations, (and while my initial post is in moderation) let me give two humorous(?) examples from two other fraternities other than that of my own at that time that I know about.
Frat, “A” would require pledges to negotiate an obstacle course carrying an ungodly liquid concoction (contents best not described) in their mouths while their backs and stomachs were being pounded by the actives in order to force the pledges to either spit out or swallow the “load.” During one such session, just prior to the pledges drinking/”loading up” from the vat containing the mix, an active said: “Wait, it’s not stirred enough yet.” He then proceeded to “expose” his “member” and use it to stir the mix. “Crimes against Humanity” for sure….
Frat. “B” would dig a small swimming pool-sized pit in the yard in back of their house prior to Hell Week. After filling it partially with water they would toss in every bit of refuse from the kitchen as well as use it as their urinal and feces dump. The final act for the pledge was to swim the length of the “pool.” But the pledges would get their revenge. The active they would nominate for “Bastard of Hell week” would then be forcibly tossed in head first! (Quickly followed by his rapid climb out of the “pool” and much wretching)
Today? War Crimes Trials!
Graphically disgusting examples of just why the enduringly juvenile fraternity system is in epic decline. Best
PS, Lex… you protected the fragile flowers around here ( you know who you are) from a “racist” comment on another thread…but chose not to moderate this time…por que?
Snake/
My point was not to either condone or propagate the actions I described. (And indeed the tactic used by my own fraternity which I described was discontinued during my time because of the danger of physical harm–most “rites” being more of the “mess with your head” variety anyway) but only to contrast with today’s changed mores to make the point that it’s (torture, etc.) often all “relative” depending on the “zeitgeist of the times.” And why it is, therefore, very dangerous to go back in time and use present day standards to criticize past actions from a moral perspective.
Virgil? In the fleet I believe that was known as becoming a shellback.
Not that I’ve much experience with it, but when you notice insulation disappearing from the piping, and later discover it tied with duct tape around uniforms so the knee-walk across the non-skid is less abrasive, one might think there’s a tradition about to happen.
When the fattest chief has a pair of lips painted across his bellybutton and kids jump into the bilge rather than kiss that belly, one might think we’re approaching the point where this might be called hazing.
In the navy? It’s not hazing, it’s tradition.
According to Churchill, so is sodomy and the lash.
So, you know, baby steps…
– Max
FWIW – does anyone recall the incident in the Moscow theatre when the Chechen rebels and suicide bombers had taken over and held hostages for several hours, a few years back? Recall that the Russians poured a tranquilizing / ‘sleeping gas’ into the theater, went in and shot the suicide bombers in the head so that the explosive belts could not be set off?
Whether it was cruel or inhumane, I would want to ask the civilian survivors.
If one wonders what the Chechen muslim monsters are like when they are allowed to carry their plans closer to fruition, one need only look back to the Chechen terrorist school seige.
So – given the choice between Hussein Obama and the ACLU’s “American way” of providing good food, nice lodging and unlimited legal defense at US taxpayer expense – and the Russian way of putting a bullet into the skull of terrs – I know which one I would choose. Likewise – bring a pirate back here to the USA for a trial???? Bravo Sierra!!! Bullet in the head, body in the sea. Over.
j3/
Yes, and IIRC several civilians DID die from the gas/”overdose” but not as many as would have had they let events run their course–because as you point out, the school siege that occurred later showed that the rebels had no compunctions whatsoever about killing civilians–women and children included.
And roger on the deep-six idea. Already there are mewelings about the “pirate being an under-privileged youth easily led who deserves clemency, etc. As I said here previously, before it’s all over he’ll be represented by a phalanx of the best pro-bono lawyers in the land and will have his own book/movie deal before the sun sets on the court proceedings.
Snake, PartII:
And let me take umbrage with your comments about fraternities in general. Since 1945 the all-fraternity GPA average has consistently been higher than the all-men’s average for 95% of those schools where fraternities are not greater than 50% of the student body. And this disparity would be even greater if fraternity men’s scores were backed-out of the all-men’s averages of which they are a part. The same goes for “Community Service” projects on campus, both in terms of man-hours devoted and money or in-kind services collected/rendered, as compared to the efforts of the general student body. And once again the disparity in favor of fraternities would be even greater if those fraternity men who are also often part of independent campus community service efforts–dorm floor
efforts, social/academic clubs such as chess club, etc., as well as independent intermural athletic leagues of which fraternity men are also often a part and which often have charity “play-a-thons” etc.–would be separated out from the general student body’s efforts
in this area.
In fact, Snake, having been a member of both, along with many others who post here, I would contend that there is a close parallel between flying squadrons and fraternities in terms of the qualities of the personnel and the social atmosphere and camaraderie. Each have and display unique insignia to enhance moral and solidarity and both kinds of organizations have their esoteric ways and “initiation” rites of one kind or another. Each are comprised of persons who are possessed of individuals who, in general have more higher intellectual and athletic attainments and are more motivated than the general populace.–same for other “elite” organizations such as Navy Seals, Army Rangers, etc. (I might add the same thing might be said about “elite” athletic teams–each of which has unique insignia and customs, populated by high achievers and are relatively insular as compared to the general student body)
You aren’t saying that all pilots (or those in other “elite” units) in the armed services are “juvenile” are you? Just because we are “elite” units who wear distinctive “badges”/pins, etc., and have esoteric ways, and have been known to throw a good party upon occasion (about which Lex has commented on more than once.) You wouldn’t throw us under the bus just for that would you?
Don’t hate us just because we’re beautiful!
(H/T to Kelly LeBrock and old Pantene commercials)
VX, You’re really stretching things a bit… are you not? You really need to get out ( away from your computer) more… that said…I stand by my comments… however brief…suggest you do the same( i.e. keep them brief) in the future. Best
Snake-didn’t they have hazing in the SOF? (Navy has Shellback Initiation) Suggest they eliminate those too?
I’m with you VX!
Poor guy has no idea what CPO initiation was all about back in the day.
I think Snake probably went to one of those institutes for boys back in the day and is angry that frat rats got away with just one week of hell as opposed to the whole year he was forced to tolerate.
It’s funny. You talk about Kelly Lebrock and he talks about briefs. hmmmm. Maybe boxers.
Hazing is one thing and applied in firm, safe but ultimately rational way is good training and does, as intended, seperate the wheat from the chaff…being forced to swim in a pool of excrement or suffer the indignities of a golden shower, or the like from some drunken frat boy in oder to join the club and hopefully do the same to someone else the next year… defies rationality. Best
Slightly OT but, since this thread has discussed shooting terrorists… I was wondering what happened to the bodies of the 3 pirates that took a bullet in the head by our SEALS. Were they dumped in the water, returned to their families or what?
My friend recommended this blog I’ve currently studying chess really hard these days.