Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
Watching that video reminds me of the initial and recurrent upset training we had to do in the 737 after the crashes they attributed to rudder hard-over malfunctions (I’m still not totally convinced).
In the Sim, at about 400 agl on approach, dirty, they would induce full rudder deflection .The first time you get it, you go over on your back and hit the ground. After doing it a few times in the sim you finally learn that the only way to recover was just overpower it with full opposite aileron and rudder, instead of the initial tendency to keep rolling back to the horizon.
I don’t know if the Dash 8 has autothrottles or not, but with EFIS, I would expect it would.
I have seen situations where AT trips in a VS descent on autopilot and on altitude capture, if you weren’t aware of it, by the time you get the power up manually speed bleeds off rather quickly. If the engines don’t spool up exactly together, a yaw is then introduced at just the right time to start the spin entry. This guy gave indications in his earlier chatter that he doesn’t respect the rudder. Any old recip pilot will fly with his feet on , or just off the rudder pedals instinctively.
No room to recover….but should never have allowed the situation to develop in the first place.
Also, I don’t recall the capt. calling for flaps up….maybe I just missed it….but I don’t think it helped when the FO brought the flaps up on her own.
Tragic
It almost looks like no one was flying the plane the way it decelerated right to shakers.
Pretty tough to watch – I kept waiting for th FO to call out “airspeed!” Can’t add much more except that based on my experience in the back of a Hummer, I got pretty ill thinking about what those folks in back went through. Really feel sorry for all the families; the crew’s included.
Speaking from my vast 80 hours in a Cessna 172 and a few hundred hours in Link fighter simulators, I have to wonder why the flight crew didn’t notice the speed bleed-off as soon as the gear went down–or didn’t expect that, especially as they were bumping along at min power already.
As to the flaps, that should have been coordinated, certainly (I don’t know that it wasn’t), but with the main wing forward of the cg, there’s a nose-up pitch moment with flap deployment. Five deg won’t have much, but bringing the flaps back up would have relieved that minimal pitch-up. Fighting the stick push to hold the nose up/pull it higher in a stall condition, though….
She never got the flaps to 15 as commanded, stopped at 10, and pulled them up uncommanded which raised the stall speed at the worst possible time. It could have been an understandable reaction to stop flap movement thinking that was what caused the unusual attitude, but not to bring them back to “0″.
A friend of mine, a UAL captain, was exposed to the drills in the sim. When the 737 started to roll, he went with it and continued to climb, inverted. The “Instructors” advised him that that was NOT the proscribed recovery. He was a Navy aerobatics and bfm instructor and that it “worked” and that nobody died and so : what was the problem?. While they agreed that he had “saved the day”, they jumped in his sh#t for doing what he knew would work.
Whatever, get with the program…
Cheers!
ChrisP
Might work in the sim, but nobody is going to climb a 737 inverted in landing configuration outside the sim.
O’brian’s article makes a good point-”you get what you pay for”.
I keep wanting to hear how the commuter airlines and their parent airlines are responding to this-and what they are doing to avoid a repetition. I’m not hearing anythng from them……….
There has to be a middle ground between total de-regulation and the way it was before. I’m not sure what it is-but I do think its time for folks to wake up and realize that pilots are worth paying well-and training well.
If you beleive, as I do, that there is a link between the low wages paid the entry level pilots and their qualifications you could start by using basic economics. Raise the experience level for right seat and, supply/demand will drive up the wages paid.
Devil is in the details as I concur with Nose that total hours is a lousy measure of experience. What was done in those hours matters.
Raise the actual IMC requirements, raise the number of approaches flown in IMC, etc. might be a better way to go.
I suspect unions and other groups would object – not to the increased pay that would result but from the bar being raised to more historical levels.
The answer is simple if framed thus: The standards have to be raised for entry level transport pilots. Then the issue becomes how is a pipeline created to address the demand?
There are few avenues other than the military where the kinds of experience required can be acquired. There will always be people wanting to be pilots – the key is creating a system that can train and season to a level approriate to their responsibilities.
OLDT6FLYER/
This problem is the same the world over–everyone wants a level of services they’re not willing to pay for. There are parallels here in the pro-football and health care industries. In the case of pro-football the NCAA is used as a cost-free developmental farm system much like the armed services have been for the airline industry. And as we see in the case of the airlines; when they have to start footing the bill themselves as the pool of military-trained pilots shrinks as the armed services are down-sized, they are unwilling to provide or pay for the sort of support structure to pump out the requisite numbers of pilots trained to military standards.
In the case of health-care, we don’t have a medical problem, we have a payments problem. The vast majority of our citizens are simply not willing to budget the 400/mo or so that is required for a maj. med plan–preferring to take that $ and use it as part of the ,say, mortgage payment on a larger house. Pushing the costs off on “everybody else”–the employer, whatever–simply allows everyone to live a fatter life-style–until the bills come due.
How many people are there that you know that would willingly down-size and live in a smaller home than the one they are presently living in because they would have to subtract roughly, say, $4oo/mo from their current mortg. payment because it had to go to health ins premiums? Can’t you just see that RE Agent saying: “No, Mr. and Mrs. Jones, you can’t afford that $250,000.00 mortgage, even though you have the cash to make the monthly payments, because of the need for monthly med. ins premium payments; you can only truly afford a $125, 000.00 mortgage because of your medical ins needs?” Wonder how most Americans would like to be told that? And would accept a system that FORCED them too take THAT into consideration when they bought a home? FAT CHANCE.
So—-wonder how everybody who is crying about the tng standards of these pilots would be willing to pay double or triple their ticket price for the peace of mind a higher level of tng would bring–and cost?
I have to take an issue with your example of the health ins premiums. $400/mo for a premium? how about $580 w/1,500 deductible for a single insured?? The insurance premiums are out of control and going up every year regardless of how much or how little you actually use the damn insurance. Granted, some people do not get health insurance because they bought the house they can’t afford or they are simply irresponsible but many un-insured simply cannot afford the premiums even living in the house they can easily afford. I cry every month I write the check to Anthem because my annual ‘burden’ is literally 15 times less than my premium increase. And this happens every damn year!
However, the plane tickets are not something we buy every month but use once or twice a year, and the next year the monthly price goes up regardless of whether you actualy flew or whether you flew across the country or one state over. Sorry, for ranting but it irkes me when people bring the health insurance as an example of people not willing to pay for the level of service they expect…
PS to OLDT6/
Should have summed up to say that for years ticket prices have been kept low only because ALL taxpayers–even the one’s who don’t fly, have been paying for part of the airlines tng costs as part of the taxes they pay for national defense–and thus these costs are spread out across the entire population–much like the way rider’s on mass transit never pay the full-price as general tax funds are used to subsidize the ride–if the TRUE costs were borne by the ridership alone, few would be willing to pay the resultant higher ticket price. Same for airlines. What we are seeing is the unwillingness (just as in the case of the public concerning health-care costs) of the ticket-buying passenger–and therefore the airline industry–to shoulder the true costs of operating the system–as opposed to having it subsidized via the defense budget where the costs are spread out because every tax-payer pays–whether they fly or not.
Terrible tragedy… as a student pilot with a whopping 14 hours, even I know that the way to break a stall is to reduce the angle of attack (nose down). We worked on this in probably my 2nd hour in the left seat doing approach stalls. The captain did the exact opposite of this, fighting the stick pusher. Putting the flaps back up only increased the stall speed. The rime ice may have played some role, but this appears to have been a 100% preventable disaster. The very basics of flying went out the window.
OldT6Flyer and VX – I agree there’s a training issue, but I don’t think it’s tied to pay at the regional airlines. At the civilian level if you want to be a professional pilot you will likely go through flight school to get your credentials – SEL, MEL Commercial, IFR and (I assume) ATP. It’s a fairly expensive process and most people get student loans to pay for it, then you need to build hours to get to the airline minimums – frequently as a flight instructor. In helicopters (my personal experience) the normal progression is about 200 hours getting Commercial, IFR, CFI and CFII done which makes you hireable as a flight instructor (pretty much the only job you can get as a low time helicopter pilot – there are exceptions of course). At around 1000 hours pilot in command time you start to enter the next tier, which is utility (primarily oil platform support) or tours. This is where most civilian pilots get their turbine training and time. At about 2500 Corporate and News operations start to open up and around 3500 hours the Air Ambulance people will talk to you. For a reference point a 2 place piston helicopter rents for around $250 an hour wet with instructor. A light turbine goes for around $900/hr. The fixed wing guys have a similar progression and while the hourly rate is less, he’s got additional requirements to meet. $70,000 out of pocket is not an unreasonable number to plan on to get to the bare minimum qualifications for a commercial job. So when he gets to Colgans minimums for hire, he’s going to get the training required for Part 121 operations and build time as a 1st Officer to get the time for his or her ATP certificate – around 1200 hours of flight time, right?. The military is not turning out the number of pilots the industry needs right now, and since the military compensation is so much better now the airlines aren’t all that attractive to a 3000+ hour strike pilot, right Lex? The whole point of this diatribe, assuming there is one is that merely raising the hours or requirements isn’t going to change the system since as was stated before, more hours does not necessarily equal quality hours. The Airlines is in the business to make some money, not provide primary training so that gets left to Part 141 and 142 schools who are also in business to make money. The guy or gal trying to work their way into the business is the one footing that bill. One hitch in the military as a pilot may not even make the minimum hours requirements these days. And the scary thing is that people come from all over the world to train in the US because it’s so inexpensive here. I’m not sure what the answer is.
Glossary for non pilot readers:
SEL = single engine land
MEL = multi engine land
IFR = Instrument Flight Rules
ATP = Airline Transport Pilot Certificate
CFI = Certificated Flight Instructor
CFII = Certificated Flight Instructor, Instrument
You know, in Asia-there are pilot accession programs that train pilots from the gitgo. Of course, they are doing it because they want more Asian pilots than expat Westerners in their cockpits (Cathay and Singapore Air are two examples). Both airlines are not good comparisons to US airlines for a whole host of reasons-but they do have pretty good safety records.
If the airlines were to start hiring again and paying a decent salary they would get the quota of military pilots they need. And that would be a good deal for both the military and the airlines because the military would have more upward mobility within its ranks for those who stayed.
I think a pilot accession program is probably the best framework for professional pilot training, and some of the 141/142 schools approach that. From all I’ve heard Cathay Pacific and Singapore Air are flag carriers comparable to Pan Am and TWA in their hey-days, do you know if they get government assistance with their training? On the scale of US carriers the potential expense is mind boggling. As far as military pilots go – they’re not looking at the regionals and I don’t think that’s likely to change anytime soon – the money just isn’t there. I do get a chuckle out of the upward mobility issue in the military, though, after all those years of pilot retention problems. The fact is that it’s a buyers market for pilots right now in the civilian world, I think the military guys are tending to stay put.
Singapore Airways gets government assistance-but it is private corporation. The thing is, in Singapore they have a system of semi-public corporations ( Like Singapore Technologies, which rebuilds USMC C-130′s from Okinawa) so the line is very blurred among the “preferred customers” of which SIA is one.
Cathay is owned by the Swire Corporation which is a privately chartered Hong Kong entitity. ( That also gets tax breaks from the SAR government).
I guess we will be depending on the military quite a bit less to supply pilots with at least 1500 hours or so.
“I got 2500 hours in predator UAV’s”. etc will be more and more of the qualification.
The problem isn’t numerical qualifications, or more training or more military pilots. The answer is a performance based system where you don’t get advanced based on the number of hours or date of hire. A little money spent up front getting better sticks and not worrying so much about whether they’ve got college degrees, military training or some psychological disposition would be better for all of us. Maybe more simulator time before they get hired or only selecting the top 75% of the training class would improve the overall performance levels. Better evaluations and testing of line pilots would help too. That will never happen of course until the unions and seniority systems disappear.
Pilot pay is based on supply and demand and until nobody wants to be an airline pilot it’s going to be low for entry level jobs.
Maybe an airline could advertise that it trains it pilots not to FAA minimum standards but higher standards and pays them more than the van driver that took the passengers to the airport.
Here is my question for everyone that flies:
When you are flying from ABE to BDA (A to B), do you research the airlines and their safety records, airplanes on which you will be flying, relative experience levels of the pilots, whether the maintenance is performed “in house” or outsourced, which hub you will connect through, seasonal weather patterns at your connecting stations, on-time performance for each flight segment, etc. etc. etc.
or
Do you choose the cheapest flight.
If the answer is the latter, then expect more BUF incidents.
Once, deadheading to go home, I heard a woman talking to her friend. In the space of 2 minutes, she complained about the lack of service, no snack, and no magazines, and then bragged about flying this flight because it saved $8. I laughed. Out loud.
Nose/
Be prepared to keep laffin’–A LOT. (Just remember, in much of the public mind, you’re competing with Greyhound.)
The fact is, since deregulation. Airline companies have been looking for financial solutions to the gap created since the stop of federeal subsidies and regulation. Aircraft parts are expensive and so is fuel. Airline comapanies have little if no control over these expenses. ONE area that an airline can control operational expense is LABOR.
Since the fall of airline labor unions, primarily ALPA over the years. Quality of life (pay, lifestyle) has dropped and he general “protections” that pilots have had are no longer.
Sadly, due to drop in wages the “charater” of the people airlines hire, drops. The hiring quota is based on “who will work for these wages”. Talented people, intelligent individuals choose another line of work even if they had desired this career choice, money, in the US…seems to be everything, and I can see why.
Regonal airlines have changed. Low wages was standard with low flight time. At that time it was turboprops and “regional routes”. Today the paint job show a “mainline” name. Airlines have found their key to survival. Grow the regional airlines, make the planes bigger keep the wages the same, the paying customer is none the wiser.
Now as for military pilots being sharper…well they are…NOT because they can fly at 2 times the speed of sound or because they can do a split-S or pull 6Gs to for 10 seconds….its because in order to get INTO the military you have to have proven yourself as being an outstanding citizen, 4.oGPA, actvities, etc….
Not that Im trying to belittle most regional pilots because I am one, many of my fellow colleages never applied to the military or couldnt get through application due to citizenship, like myself.
These “Regional” pilots work HARDER and LONGER HOURS than most seasoned major airline pilots. Regional Pilots do all this without the general respect and protections afforded to “major” pilots.
Many pilots of my generation grew up on a dream and 80′s era, “Top Gun” flicks. I dont mock them for having a dream and a desire to become “real pilots”. But until they raise wages the can’t attarct the kind of talent that is safer for the traveling public…..and as far as these “mainliners” who blame thier younger brothers for their own drop in pay and lifestyle they have no one else to blame but themselves.
If anything, they dropped the ball on us.