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Chivalry

By lex, on May 23rd, 2009

It wasn’t completely dead in the winter of 1943.

17109

Amazing story.

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May 23rd, 2009 | Tags: , | Category: Flying, History, Military

23 comments to Chivalry

  • SCOTTtheBADGER
    May 23, 2009 at 9:10 am

    I remember watching an interview with Mr. Stigler on History, in which he said that after looking at the shape the B-17 was in, that there was no way he could ever shoot at men who had gone through what that crew had. Even times of Evil can still have Good Men living in them.

  • David Curp
    May 23, 2009 at 9:24 am

    This is especially odd (and graced) given both that

    1) the Luftwaffe was one of the most deeply nazified of all the traditional German armed services (though they ran neck and neck with the Kriegsmarine)…

    2) and what our heavy bombers were doing to German cities (we needed to do it – but one can understand why many Germans viewed us as “air gangsters”).

  • Edward
    May 23, 2009 at 10:55 am

    They now fly in a happier formation.

    Honorable warriors.

  • xformed
    May 23, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    Just found out last week one of my recently former workmate’s father flew with the 397th. His mother donated all his items to the Mighty 8th Museum.

    Stopped there a few years back and walked that facility myself, too. Can’t miss the B-47 next to I-95!

    I first read this story there, and blogged about it, too.

    • virgil xenophon
      May 23, 2009 at 12:25 pm

      xformed/

      FYI, if you’re ever over in the UK, Cambridge has a small, but quite nice American military cemetery and museum/memorial which, by nature, centers on the
      8th AF. Lots of pics and educational materials as well.

      • Buck
        May 23, 2009 at 1:40 pm

        I’ve been there and second what Virgil says. Worth the visit, in spades. My father flew with the 8th in Big Bang II and it was a “duty and obligation” thing for me.

    • Quartermaster
      May 23, 2009 at 3:24 pm

      The Mighty 8th AF Museum is worth the stop. I took my wife son-in-law, daughter, and brand new granddaughter in November of ’98 when they were in the process of re-assembling the B-47. It’s a very nice museum and I found names of distant relatives in the memorial garden out back. I want to get back an see the changes as the museum was pretty new when I went.

      The museum is near the Pooler, GA exit on I-95.

      A few years back Flying Magazine carried an article on a guy who rented a Super Cub in England and Toured several of the 8th AF fields in East Anglia. Several of the old fields have small museums of the units that were based there. Nothing formal, just a few artifacts.

  • xformed
    May 23, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Thanks for the heads up. I’ll put that in the bit bucket for future use!

  • Byron Audler
    May 23, 2009 at 3:55 pm

    Father-in-law was a 15th AF Fortress co-pilot. His aircraft got shot to pieces and made a forced landing in Switzerland. He said they weren’t mistreated, but the Swiss war far from gracious hosts. More or less, they were told that if they tried to violate the internment rules, they’d be handed over the the Germans. Nice folks. Great watches.

  • BoomerVF14
    May 23, 2009 at 4:42 pm

    Bottom line though… more of his countrymen probably died than would have as a result of Stigler’s decision. I can’t say for sure I would make the same decision if the bomber was attacking the USA. Then again, we aren’t Nazis.

    • FbL
      May 23, 2009 at 4:52 pm

      I was thinking about that too, but was afraid to say it. It certainly speaks to a beautiful kind of mercy, though.

      • fliterman
        May 25, 2009 at 5:26 pm

        Although I am most happy with the outcome, this incident has long bothered me.

        I wonder if I were his German CO and knew of this, how would/should I react? I also remember the German infantryman in Saving Private Ryan whom they let live and let go, only to have him kill the Lt. (Tom Hanks) in the end.

        Mercy and duty can often be at odds. But chivalry sadly died long ago.

  • steveH
    May 23, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    My high school algebra (and technical drawing and woodworking…it was a small school) teacher was an 8th AF B-17 navigator, shot down over the North Sea near Helgaland. He was pulled out of the water after nearly 90 minutes, with serious injuries, and spent the next six weeks recovering in German hospital from serious burns.

    He often spoke with admiration and thanks of the German doctors, if not so much the rest of his time as a guest of the Reich, which included time in Stalag Luft 3 and eventually Mooseburg.

    He took some pains to note that there were some good Germans, and others not so; you’d just have to deal with what you got throughout the time.

    He was a little, wiry guy; went in weighing 137, and 97 when they were finally released, losing most of it between January and April of ’45.

  • Zane
    May 24, 2009 at 1:13 am

    Personal note: Lisbon, Maine, is my hometown, and if you follow the right side of the linked page down you’ll see a red schoolhouse, painted by Frank Gross (of “Frank’s Famous Frozen Fruited Flavors” fame). That’s from back when schools weren’t warehouses, and the painter is standing very near our own World War One monument. That was my father’s high school, and I did one year there before our new warehouse school opened up. Two pictures down from that is a white church, where I was baptized at 17, since torn down for a parking lot. The avocado building below that was the “new” high school that replaced the red brick one, my sister did a year there. Since it’s entirely of wood, I’m amazed it’s still standing. There are actual pictures of the high schools further down the page.

    And Moxie, always Moxie!

    • virgil xenophon
      May 24, 2009 at 6:53 am

      Zane/

      I’ve never tasted Moxie, nor heard of the drink until 2004 when I began reading a conservative blog by an LA-based gal who titles her blog “Moxie.” (you should check her out, btw, as she’s keyed into the Hollywood scene and has some biting commentary about same ) Being a lazy etymologist, I had never bothered to run down the source of the phrase “he’s got moxie” until then, more or less accepting the phrase as a fixture of the universe.

      BTW, Wiki suggests several ways to approx. it’s taste for those of us unable to obtain access to this regional drink. Naturally as a hedonistic New Orleanian, I’m strongly drawn to the Jagermeister and coke option. :)

      • Zane
        May 24, 2009 at 8:55 am

        VX, alas, Moxie is inimitable, as are you. Perhaps the last P-3 out of Brunswick could bring you a case (or am I too late already?).

        • AW1 Tim
          May 25, 2009 at 10:46 am

          Zane,

          Another year before they’re all gone, unless someone comes to their senses and stops this foolish closing.

          Moxie is a most wonderful drink, enjoyed by those for whom being above the fold is a part of life :)

          VX, I have a friend who compares Moxie to drinking flat Dr. Pepper and Vicks 44 filtered through a corroded copper pipe…..

          Not true at all. Moxie is most definitely carbonated and fizzy… :)

          It’s a real treat, and one of the very few sodas I’ll drink.

          respects,

  • House of Eratosthenes
    May 25, 2009 at 8:52 am

    [...] Neptunus Lex: What happened in the winter of 1943. [...]

  • Marianne Matthews
    May 25, 2009 at 11:12 am

    My Dad used to use the expression ‘moxie’ in an admiring way about someone, as I in turn have at times. The above discussion caused me to look the up the definition of the word in Dictionary.com, where it is defined as meaning gumption and guts. Then it adds the comment that the word is drawn from the American drink Moxie. Apparently it’s a great drink as well as a great word.

    Oh, for a President with real Moxie.

    Marianne

  • cardoso
    May 25, 2009 at 3:17 pm

    Never say never.

    I’d never thought I would want to buy a beer for a nazi pilot.
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