The ancient Greeks had two faces.

On the one side they were brutal slave-holders, deriving human dignity from the blessing of a communal or tribal god. When that was gone (the city burned down), then human dignity was lost. (I am referring to a 19th century treatise on ancient civilisation “Cite Antique” by Fustel de Coulange). No wonder, that the SS claimed it wanted to re-erect an ancient slave-holder society (Eugen Kogon, “The SS-state”)

On the other side, their societies where build on participation of full-citizens, think of the two equals isonomia (equal vote) and isegoria (equal law). Then, and that is now my very personal opinion, in Sophokles’s Antigone I see the first enlightening of individual conscience (as opposed to adherence to the rules of the gods and elders) as both duty and right in human history.

Somebody here ventured that Greece was a civilization. May I draw their attention to Thucydides? It was no civilization and what the Greeks did to each other rivaled what the SS did to the Jews. But I am writing of history and there is a steady progression leading to the rights of man and if they had not perfected it, they at least put our foot on the true path.

I agree with you completely. I also have some reservations about the entire construct. Persia probably gets it’s hits from it’s geographical point set. The modern Iranian government has taken pains to eradicate the old Persia, to include not only the history but the Zoroastrian baseline of it’s culture.

Ancient Persia, for all it’s faults, accepted the various religions of the conquered peoples, even to include the various Jews and Pagan cults it absorbed into the whole, much like the Sci-Fi Borg.

Whether it is right that we identify with the Greeks over the Persians is, to my mind, at this point immaterial. It is sufficient unto the day that we do so, and so we find ourselves at a juncture.

Our problem at the moment is both one of national identity and of political will. Either we summon up the will to replicate the Spartans, or we bare our necks to the Persians. I believe that it really is that simple a chice.

Respects,

1. AW1Tim is perfectly right that we identify with the Greek against the Persians, and we do so rightly. The ancient Greek city states of that time were the first civil states, built on the the liberty and participation of their citizens, no matter how much limited, imperfect and sometimes even inhuman they were. The Persian Empire was built on the divine rule of a king and its feudal elite.

2. I have strong reservations against constructing a national identity across several centuries, or even millennia. Well, English and Frenchman might say that they are still the same as Sir Francis Drake or cardinal Richelieu. Yet, for Persia we have two and a half millennia, at least some (if only partial) immigrations (Parthians), the islamic conquest, the formation of shiitic Islam, some other conquests (e.g. Mongolians) and several dynasties in between. If Persia as such has an ever recurring influence on the Middle East, I would rather more ascribe it to its geographical position.

The Persians were the “evil empire” and the majestic horde conquering all in stride. We Americans have seen ourselves as the Greeks saw themselves, a small lot defending their ideals of Freedom and Independence, (however they considered it) against the tyranny of Empire, in our case Britain in particular, and monarchy and theocracy in general.

The small band of Spartans at the Hot Gates is no different, to our minds, than the small band of Colonists at Breed’s Hill, or Valley Forge (or, for our Australian friends, the rebels at Vinegar Hill against the Lobsterbacks).

Persia contributed much to science and civilization, I fully concur, but it was also at the expense of oppressive taxation through both national treasure and levies of men and animals for her armies.

Persian enlightenment was still under a tyrant, and Greek independence was also not quite what we would envision liberty representing.

But the stories we remember are those of the valiant stand by Leonidas and his men (and allies), and the depredations of the Persians against Greek cities and colonies. We remember Alexander, (himself a Monarch) repaying Persia in kind, and we remember Xerxes and Darius as the Persian leaders who caused all those problems to begin with.

As modern hordes descend upon western civilization, and our supposed allies submit to more and more of those same Persian demands, it becomes more clear with each passing year, that we will be much like those ancient Greeks, a small remnant left to defend the rights of man against tyranny, slavery, and a forced theocracy.

Other’s mileage may vary, of course..