Well, with what might be the final nail hammered home in the F-22 coffin, money that would have gone towards sweeping a future adversary from the skies may now be re-purposed towards bug-hunting:
(The) Navy intends to field a limited number of turbo-prop attack planes outfitted with the most modern surveillance, tracking and weapons systems to help special ops forces keep track of bad guys and, in a pinch, put warheads on foreheads.
Call it an A-1 Skyraider on steroids – a “Back to the Future”-resurrection of a kind of plane last seen pounding enemy positions with rockets, guns and bombs over Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos in the 1960s.
Code named “Imminent Fury,” the classified, year-long program has so far produced one fully-outfitted plane and is set to field four more to directly support SEALs and other operators on the battlefield in Afghanistan.
According to a source close to the program who declined to be named, the Navy has leased an EMB-314 Super Tucano for the job. Made by the Brazilian aerospace company Embraer, it is now being tested on desert ranges in California and the service’s top test facility at Patuxent River Naval Air Station, Md. The Navy loaded it up with sensors and weapons systems that “would make an F-16 pilot blush,” the source said.
Groovy.
Since I’ve made a number of F-16 pilots blush over my time, I have to wonder if this couldn’t be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.
SEALs are too valuable to risk in turboprop aircraft, Navy – you ought to go with contractors. Because if you’re hiring, I’m firing.
PS – I’m serious.
PPS – Call me.
How do the SEALs get out of the drop-tanks?
wait, how do they get in?
Lex, I’m also available for all sorts pf SENSO work.
Just sayin…
Whatever you need, I’m there… if only as ballast for the back seat.
Fuzzy: No barf bags allowed, can’t get moisture in all those sensor displays. You still in?
Absolutely!
In fact, I have a ticket for dogfighting that I’m holding out as motivation for something things I need to do first. Well, that and waiting until the weather cools off a bit. 
It’s cooler at altitude. Jumpers in Eloy used to put a sandwich and a soda in a fanny pack around noon, get out at 15K, open right away and eat lunch on the way down, up in the cool air way over the dessert. But sitting in a mini-greenhouse…yeah, gets hot, anytime the sun is really bright.
Back when I lived in NH, I frequently hiked the White Mountain wilderness country. On more than one occasion, local Air Force types used the terrain in training. Both Hercs and ‘Hog’s would climb the hills at just over treetop level. Seemed like a great deal of fun for all involved.
The turbopropped Herc, you could hear forever before it go to your position
Similarly, I can always hear CDF OV-10 spotter aircraft when overhead, as well.
OTOH, I never heard a peep out of the high bypass Warthogs till they passed us on the hils. They always scared the Shiite out of us. So isn’t the Warthog type of A/C more desirable than one with a droning blade?
And then, there’s the issue of firepower. A minigun just rocks, and there is no issue of that big prop becoming a little one on a ‘Hog.
Hmmmm, wonder if, at long last, after all these eons, the TACRON’s finally get a little! Er, some of these I mean. Word has it the line for front and back-seaters is already out the door; bubbas want in the fight, NOW.
VR,
Comjam
Never stop trying and never quit, Lex.
Hopefully we can sweep the skies for (potentially) you guys with the remaining 180 F-22′s.
Happy hunting.
Cute, but it doesn’t look like it can carry very many of those big iron ‘splodey things to me. Now maybe if you used it as a spotter/designator for B-1s and B-52s…
It’s for refined…put it on the forehead, up close and personal work…sorta like an airborne sniper. But…in the long run, the noise of a B-52 strike in support of SEALs would really give away their position, as opposed to just a little plane zipping about between the hilltops. I love the BUFFs, but that kind of NOE flying would be way too obvious, even with out bomb things.
GIMMESOM – I know props and I can still fit in the cockpit – where does the line start?
Sorry to be the heretic here, but killing the F-22 is stupid. Even dumber is going with the Tucano, when home grown designs (A-1, ahem) can be made as well, and the freakin’ money stays here. Yeah, I know, dev costs, yada, yada. It just seems stupid to buy our aircraft from a foreign manufacturer.
I’m sure there are still some prints of P-47/P-51/F8Fs laying about, even if they’re trashed the SPAD drawings.
It is a dumbass idea, though 7 more would not help. 25 more would be useful.
I haven’t flown a Super Tucano, but I did get 0.6 hours in the regular version. Very nice. The Super has twice the horsepower, and was designed with hardpoints.
And don’t worry about it being foreign. We’re trying to sell the Brazilians Hornets.
At best, the Tucano would have to be called “Half a Spad”.
A better choice for ground support would be to take the A-10 and get rid of the honking big cannon so that the plane could carry more ordinance and fuel.
The Russians also have a newer version of the Frogfoot ground support that is carrier capable. I wonder if they would sell one to the US Navy?
SEAL’s are know to use any weapon that they can get their hands on.
Stan/Tx:
I’ve been on the Frogfoot soapbox for years–here and elsewhere. Carrier qual, a nice, servicable 30mm gun, supersonic with legs the A-10 doesn’t (lack of both being supposedly a big AF bitch) and a titanium tub just like the Hog. We should built them under license with our electronics. The ideal solution for Naval CAS AND that of the AF. Give all the A-1Os the AF doesn’t want to the Marines who will be happier than a pig in you know what with them.
The Army would be glad to take them. The Af looked at phasing them out about 15-20 years ago, but balked when the Army said they’d be glad to relieve the AF of such a “sub-standard” AC.
Byron, I imagine if there are many to be made, it will be built under license. Many of the F-16s in the world have been built under license.
I’m guessing some watched the last Bond movie. There’s a Tucano in it and some Larry Lightbulb in a position of influence thought that was a good idea. I’d like to know what the ordinance load is compared to some of the domestic designs we’ve seen with turbine powered fans out front. I know Piper produced what amounted to a P-51 with a turbo-prop out front. I recall others as well.
You know, if our procurement system wasn’t such a soup sandwich, there would be no need to go to Brazil to get a slightly modified off the shelf solution.
What about that fancy looking Texan II? The T6, right? Couldn’t it be “buffed” up some and be right in the fight?
Yeah, except that after the RFP went through we’d like as not get an A300 float plane conversion.
AT-6B is the armed version of the Texan. Iraqi Air Force plans to buy 36 of them (2 squadrons).
In the “fly-off” between the AT-6 and the Tucano (as I understand it), the Super Tucano came out on top. It also made for a “now” solution, vice one that could be ready in 3 years.
I’m thinkin’ weapons release is an inherently governmental role. Not to throw cold water on your dreams there, Lex.
Maybe you could be a sand crab and fly those things?
Could be some of those sheep dipped types, too.
Oh sure, NOW you are into props!
Well, Nose, beggars can’t be choosers
(he says, running for his life!)
They look a bit…delicate. There has to be some A-1J’s in the desert…right? I Wishful thinking on my part.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Lex beg before…
Yeah, almost whimpering, even…didn’t realize he had it THAT bad…
I bet he had a tingle up his leg, too…Like Chrissy
The AF is looking to get something similar…. There’s already a T-6B model with a HUD. I’m hoping for an AT-6 type aircraft, I think it would be like flying a mini A-10 really.
The only thing I’d be worried about is flying over Iraq or Afghanistan in one of those and catching a golden BB. Being slower and single engine, you get two of the downsides of the Viper and the Hog rolled into one.
We got any A-26s left out there in the desert worth reclaiming? Helluva aircraft in the COIN role–proven track record and two engines–which also provide a bit of good pilot protection. By my count as late as the 90s there were some 30+ still in the us civilian fleet modified for corporate use (oil company use, etc.) or aerial fire-fighting tankers. Maybe we could commandeer the lot and refit…
Ughh! Only 180. The blood of present and future citizens as well as service members will be on the hands of those who have made this decision and pushed it so hard. Thanks for the news Cap’n. I hope the F-35′s will be able to carry the rest of the heavy load.
Have Boeing dig out the plans for the Douglas A2D Skyshark, for all practical pourposes a turbo Skyraider, that only died because the late 40′s was not an era of high quality turboprops. The A-1 used to be called The Flying Dumptruck. Would you rather have some SeaTucanos flying CAS for you, or a flight of Turbo Flying Dumptrucks?
Gents, don’t overlook the attack version of the USAF Tweet jet trainer – the mighty A-37 Dragonfly! Gives up some range, but has two engines for survivability, 100kts faster redline… and our design! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-37_Dragonfly
What happened to the armored Air Tractor? Shoot ‘em up AND spray the poppies. Either way, I’m in!
Well, the obvious answer would have been to simply pull a couple OV-10D’s out of mothballs. Proven design, great combat history, very little development work needed.
plus room for 4-5 dudes with camo, stoners and parachutes in back. I heard they did a open the back, pull up hard and out the jumpers slid in those bad boys.
Are the only things wrong with AC-130s is that they are air force and can’t fly upside down?
For those looking for a Texan varient light attack, look up the AT-6B. Iraq plans to buy 36 of them in addition to 20 T-6As…
We had this figured out long ago. Its called an OV-10. Put guns on it. Sensors, Can even kick a few paras out the back cargo thinging. Medivac, Light supply drop and on and on… What dirt mission do you want to do? New build OV-10s could do it. And Oh yeah… it can land and take off from a flat deck boat. I present to you, your littoral air power……
Can someone explain to me why a turbo-prop is preferable for this kind of work rather than a jet? Is it a cost thing, or are there aerodynamic or operational reasons why a prop is better?
I believe they want something with quite a bit of combat endurance…something that can loiter around the battle space for several hours.
Said requirements suit a prop more than a jet.
Two words — exhaust signature. If you’re using your exhaust as your means of propulsion it’s a pretty hot thing hitting cold air. Makes a nice point on a thermal image. Blow a boatload of cold air past your engine exhaust and you can diffuse it. Cover it. Which is one nice thing.
Second is speed. Jets do lousy at low speeds. Takes time to spool them up, throttle back they have an annoying tendency to quit. Props, on the other hand, all you need is some gear reduction and the jet engine can do its best speed and the prop can do its best speed and if you want to change speed just adjust jet speed or prop pitch.
And if you’re going to go after an enemy small unit with a minimal amount of ordinance doing it at 400 knots isn’t going to give you a lot of time actually firing at them. Be kind of nice to do so at 200 knots with miniguns churning and rockets shrieking. While this makes the aircraft more vulnerable to ground fire, it also increases the chances of targeting the right folks as it allows more time for the pilot to verify his target and the position of friendlies.
Heckuva trade-off, isn’t it? What makes it safer for the folks on the ground makes it more dangerous for the pilot.
The final reason is the real trade-off, simplicity and survivability vs. costs in time and parts for maintaining that aircraft.
Jets do not like bullets. Spinning at 50K rpm a hole in a turbine blade tends to cause a lot of vibration, which causes the turbine to come apart. If those turbine blades break off you’re going to lose a lot of electric and hydraulic as they cut through them exiting the airframe. You can design around this, armor the engine cowlings and place the engines outside the airframe like on the A-10 as an example. The result is the A-10, which is kinda big.
You can place an 18 or 27 or 36-cylinder radial in there (or a nice V-12 Mercedes or Rolls Royce if you’re so inclined) and if a cylinder is shot off it’ll probably continue running until it’s out of oil. Which is nice, but you’ve all that extra weight, and radials burn more fuel for the same power than a jet does, and they take a lot more to maintain, so more ground crew and a lot more parts and you’re rebuilding it in the airframe rather than just replacing an engine…
So, turboprop wins on simplicity, weight, upkeep, and time-on-station.
This aircraft is about covering the guys below. The go-fast pilot safety part that jets do so well takes a back seat to placing bullets in buttocks and bombs on bozo’s. Doing so in an environment where shoulder-fired mini heat-seekers might be found is a bonus for the prop.
– Max
Not sure how that’s a “Skyraider on Steroids”. Going by weapon loadouts anyway.
Well, the $1.75B in savings can be “used” to pay for the first 1.75 years of the Army’s plus-up of 22,000 end strength (estimated at $1B in costs per year).
- SJS
I’ve got the contractor’s POC info if’n you want it. They were heavily recruiting anything with gold wings and prior FAC(A) experience, even lowly 4 prop pukes. . .
Lex, My unsolicited two cents…I had the contractor urge and an actual opportunity when I got off AD in the way back (10-15K was big money in 1969)…but choose not to proceed… I had already pushed my luck to the limit. Best
Good endurance, you can hang a bunch of miniaturized sensors on it straight off the UAVs, some finishing capability with Hellfires or such, and self deploying or self-help deploying. It is basically a manned UAV (heh, we’ve come a long way).
The engines are readily available, and the plane or ones like it are common around the globe, so it doesn’t necessarily scream USA HERE TO KICK YOUR ASS like an OV-10 or A-10 would. Fits into a small hanger and flies out of rough fields. Appropriately sized for the target sets. Very cool.
Interestingly, Boeing suggested restarting the OV-10 line with modernization a few months back.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/02/01/321730/boeing-considers-restarting-ov-10-production-after-23-year.html
Money quote:
“It doesn’t make any difference how good your UAV is,” he says. “Nothing replaces a couple of eyeballs on a head that moves around.”
Hmmmnn if I put a couple of clamshell doors on the bottom of the drop tank, use the nose for oxygen storage, install a relief system. Yep. We can fit one SEAL per tank. If they ask nice I can put a DVD player in there and possibly internet access.
xformed,
If we can get one to take apart, I can handle the drawing bit no sweat. I know CAD and have a background in aircraft sheetmetal.
Sand Pebbles Navy approach! On the road to a niche navy.
What’s wrong with the A-10′s endurance. It can go out loaded for bear to 200+nm and loiter over the battlefield at 5k for over 2.5 hours.
If we need this stuff I say we buy the good stuff not some foriegn economy model..
Lex- I heard the seat in that thing is pretty narrow…
b2
You do enjoy your petty torments, don’t you b2? I’m on the comeback trail…
Ah, from the change of command photo recently posted I think we need to get some progress reports – ya know, just for verification and all.
Still all in all, 10 hr endurance and north of 8000 lbs of ka-boom on the old AD is still hard to beat. AND the cockpit is roomier. AND it has a hook! Ob baby, back to the open canopy, 325 ft, 1000 yards abeam pattern.
The camera adds
1015 pounds. I look very fit in the mirror.Hey, me too! Don’t be so dam touchy!
b2
B2, You know the snark hits home when you get your target/victum to respond…well done young grass-hopper. Best
B2/
Mee too, too. That’s why all of us should be hatin’ on Byron–his waistline is still the same as when he was 19–I hate the guy for that reason alone!
Lex as a contractor? I guess we’ll have to post with a new site theme song in the background – “With The Wild Geese.”
You look fine, Lex. The way to handle b2, is to remember “Lex is Rex.” Off with his head!
Virgil, if Byron’s waste is the same as when he was 19, I’d say his Beer swilling braggadocio is but talk and hot air. He couldn’t stay that way even killing Lite Beer.
Plenty of Tucano’s components are made in the USA, so let’s cut the market xenophobia crap off. The Super Tucano is great at doing what was designed for and quite on budget. I thought americans liked to reward who does a good job/product, instead of sticking to cheap nationalism that will leave the SEALs only waiting for a longer time to have their needs supplied.