A good article in Wired about the new, more restrictive Rules of Engagement in the Af, and why General McChrystal needed those 40,000 troops:
While accidental civilian deaths dropped by 87 percent in the eight weeks following the order, American fatalities have more than doubled from 2008 levels. And to make the plan work, McChrystal will get 37,000 more US and NATO troops. At the highest levels of the Obama administration, many top officials pushed to remake the Afghanistan campaign in the mold of the Pakistan air war next door: more drone strikes and fewer troops to get caught in the cross-fire. Soldiers can only do so much to rebuild this rugged society from the ground up, they argued. Let the drones take the lead, fighting this conflict from the safety of the skies. But for now, McChrystal’s approach has won out. He travels to Capitol Hill in early December to defend his war plan.
While the debate rages in Washington, the Marines on the ground are mostly on their own. Even with Paz’s squad being attacked from three sides, a bombing run is not automatic. The Marines not only have to prove that civilians won’t be hurt, they also must guarantee that the bombs won’t so much as scratch civilian homes.
Shifting strategies requires more than just speech in Congress. Tying one hand behind our backs – the unanswerable fires of air power – is a risk that will be paid in blood.
A hell of a way to fight a war.
From “Those who call the shots won’t be among the dead and maimed.” From “Christmas in the Trenches.”
Lieutenant Generals can be REMFs, too.
And, often are.
Limiting civilian casualties is a worthy aim but sure provides motivation to the enemy to further terrorize the population. Human shield anyone?
Isn’t that a war crime per international conventions BTW? I guess the only war crimes the chattering classes want to rave about are the alleged ones committed by our side. The only human rights abuse claims we ever seem to hear about seem directed and us it seems.
So the drone strikes wouldn’t hurt civilians or homes? What idiocy. And with those rules of engagement maybe the Marines SHOULD home.
I’m here on the ground in AFGHAN. The fight is one that can’t and won’t be won by acting like the enemy is following “The Marquess of Queensberry Rules”…The area is primeveal…The fight here is against those who would keep the people of this land welded in the middle ages.
The business of warfighting has never been without regretable civilain casualties, the idea of prescribing a set of “required conditions” to take out the bad guys will only embolden them to use the circumstances to take out out troops and perpetuate the terror.
Aristotle said ” We make war that we may live in peace..” Let us hope we can provide the same to the Afghan people and rid the land of those who would make them vicitims of the brutal and inhuman treatment of the Taliban.
Does it worry anybody else that we’ve just published our ROE? Seems to me if you take your requirements for air support or artillery support and pass those to the enemy, the enemy might just make use of that information to neutralize your leviathan capabilities.
– Max
Max
The Taliban learn from the best – us. You can bet the next time we have “collateral damage” that Al Jazeera TV will be on the spot broadcasting “live from the scene of America’s war crimes”. Wanna bet a court martial for a FAC, FAG or drone driver from Nellis is in our not-too-distant future?
As my late father said about his days ass a battalion CO in VN- “the ROE was tougher to fight and beat than the VC”. Same old same old.
Once again our government has enacted “rules” which assure a longer conflict. We had similar directives in ‘Nam in 1965. The idea is not to win (they don’t even have an idea of what that looks like), rather keep us occupied and bothered while our Nation is gutted by the America Haters who are in charge. They are good at keeping our attention on anything else but our domestic crisis.
That which began in 1918 is coming to fruition. Now THERE was a plan!
√6,9,12 and 3 – we’re surrounded.
And Dave, above, has a constant reminder of what we all went thru in Vietnam with ROEs–keeps the unexploded 37mm shell which was embedded in the leading edge of his F-4 as a paperweight on his desk. And he was over in 65 before things got REALLY restrictive by the time I arrived in 67.. (‘course he was one of the “country-clubbers” living the fat life over in Thailand as opposed to we poor sods with the 366th at Da “rocket-city” Nang.
)
PS: I can’t remember, Dave, did you pack your golf-clubs or was it your tennis raquets?
Did I forget to mention the base swimming pool?
You Bastards!
Country Club? Oh yes. We did get to ride the C-130 to Bankok on occasion, and we played a lot of volleyball during the daytime. Most of the cement was being used for the “Royal Thai Airbase” runway construction. I don’t remember a pool during my tour and golf? – please!
I never really knew what was packed, we had staff then. How tedious it must have been for you.
Easy my fellow zoomie-gentle kidding only. I think the pool came along long after you left. Hell, they were living in tents at DaNang in 65 and shared a single runway with the Marines–by the time I got there everything was air-conditioned CONUS-like quarters and the Marines had their own runway. Early guys like you–at whatever base–really roughed it compared to later arrivals such as myself. Apologies if you took offense…didn’t you see the smilies?
I’m too old to take offense. None taken. It’s nice to be able to discuss matters of importance with folks who’ve been there, done that. Here in Santa Cruz, the Kommunist Kapital of Kalifornia, there are many “talkers” but few “doers” (having done – ers [?]).
Santa Cruz, eh? You really ARE in the belly of the beast, aren’t you?
The overly restrictive ROE’s are not such a big deal to the politicos though (civilian AND military) as the blood paid will not be theirs.
For all the wonderful PR that McChrystal and Petraeus have, why have I not heard or read anything from them about our troops being used as fodder due in large part to the ROE, just as happened in SEA forty years ago?
And if BHO and his gang are allowed to pull the same crap that Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon did, will any of our military leaders resign in protest?
Command, especially at that level, owe a greater duty to the country, not the current CIC. The “just following orders” excuse still stinks, no matter what fragrance is used to try and make it smell better.
For those who are in theater, or have family over there, I surely do not mean to sound defeatist. I want us to either allow our troops to win the war (if that is possible), or pull out. Compromising with the primary goal being to minimize any personal or party political cost is not acceptable.