Sukhoi comes out with its first “Fifth Generation” fighter in the T-50:
The Sukhoi T-50 prototype, a “fifth generation” fighter, completed a 47-minute maiden test flight in Russia’s Far East. The project, three years behind schedule, has been shrouded in secrecy during almost two decades of development and aims to rival the F-22 Raptor flown by the US Air Force, which began flight tests in 1997.
Military chiefs hope to put the jet, also known as the PAK FA, into service in 2015, making it Russia’s first new warplane since the collapse of the Soviet Union. India is also due to take delivery of the stealth fighter in a development partnership with Russia.
This seems to be driven more by Sukhoi’s desire for foreign sales than any domestic need – it doesn’t help much that Congress refused to export F-22 Raptors even as SecDef killed the domestic program. Curious place the Raptor found itself in: Too valuable to export, not valuable enough to build.
I’d like to get a better look at it, but on initial glance it doesn’t look all that stealthy to me. I won’t go into the details on a public blog, but for those who understand, this similar angle on an F-22 is illustrative.
Anyway, the skin’s the thing.
Lex,
Concur. Doesn’t seem very stealthy in shaping, and is definitely not stealthy from the rear. The most striking thing to me is the small control surfaces which means they’re relying a lot on thrust vectoring. In the video it appears relatively small next to the Flanker chase plane (but then again so do most planes.) Nonetheless, coupled with the requirement for internal stowage of weapons this wouldn’t leave as much room for a lot of fuel stowage and thus I’m guessing it has shorter range than the Flanker, which the Russians usually aren’t as concerned about as the West. Didn’t notice an IRST but given Russian design philosophy there’s probably one on there I just missed it, especially since the nose is not very wide which means the diameter of any radar in there is smaller than the Raptor and the Flanker.
It has huge engines, huge wings, slick almost YF-23 looking aerodynamics, and thrust vectoring. Probably some decent forward quarter stealth, but definitely not rear quarter, a small radar and likely an IRST. What we have here in my best guess is a very good air to air defense fighter (and not something that could penetrate a modern IADS and loiter) which would probably use its reduced forward quarter signature and passive sensors to get the “first shot” against inbound strike aircraft and extreme manueverability to dominate any subsequent dogfight with anything short of an F-22. Would be pretty flimsy speculation on one video/a few pictures to say how it would do against the F-22 but I’ll venture a guess anyway because it would seem to be in line with standard US and Russian tactical doctrine. The F-22 would appear to have better stealth and radar and thus have the edge in the BVR realm. If it got into a dogfight the PAK-FA *looks* like it has lower wing loading, good thrust to weight, and 3D thrust vectoring vs. the Raptors 2D. This could give a slight edge over the Raptor (no slam dunk though), but as you know probably better than anyone else on this blog that would come down to pilot proficiency, and probably some degree of luck.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8486812.stm video
In the video of the first flight, during the postflight hugs and kisses, I though I saw rivet lines (or lines some kind of connectors) on the forward fuselage!
As for the F-22 picture – wow, that could win a dogfight just by scaring the crap out of the bad guy! An encounter with that thing could lead to a really bad day. No rivets on that puppy!
My take on dogfights is that numbers is always better, especially in a furball. With many on many scenarios glancing shots become a real possibility, and although pure performance is always good it starts getting watered down a bit in the confusion. I’m not a fighter pilot but have heard stories of even T-38’s getting chance “kills” on F-22’s at Red Flag like exercises when it devolves into large scale WVR combat.
This is one of the reasons why I’m no fan of the JSF as the lo to the Raptor’s hi. The lo should be a cheap (i.e. not very stealthy) high performing (i.e. low W/S high T/W) streetfighter to go into the furball and let the F-22 stand back and engage at will since it’s soooo expensive and soooo rare. Once you’re in WVR combat stealth is not only useless but a drag. Pilot training first (which a cheap fighter with a low operating cost allows far more than a gold plated aircraft), numbers second and then high performance third is what I would guess make the difference there.
And with only 187 Raptors vs. multitudes of Flankers out there I think we’ll need a lo that’s better than the teen series. With so few Raptors the preferred tactic of just grinding down the enemy with BVR shots may not cut it, and any entropy or Clausewitzian fog in the air war leads to dogfights. The numbers matter as the infamous (and red headed stepchild no one wants to accept) RAND study of an air war over Taiwan shows. IIRC it assumed the F-22’s achieving a Pk of 1.00 with every single AMRAAM and Sidewinder shot and not taking a single air to air combat loss (unlikely assumptions at best.) Even still enough Flankers were able to survive until the F-22’s ran out of ammo, and they then proceeded to kill the tankers so nothing could make it back to Andersen alive.
ps. The video I saw was longer than the one posted in this thread, which does not include the postflight segments. Unfortunately, I can’t remember where I saw it.
It just doesn’t look “right” for stealth and high performance. To this untrained eye, it looks like a brick.
Byron
It reminds me a lot of the YF-23. It looks somehwat stealthy, but probably not as much as the Raptor.
To be honest though from an Aerospace engineer with a few years in industry (i.e. do take with a grain of salt, I’m an apprentice and not a journeyman or master by any stretch) it has a very large primary wing surface (for low wing loading), small control surfaces (low drag), almost assuredly 3D thrust vectoring, and huge engines. To me, this thing looks very maneuverable. Maneuverability has been the Russian’s bread and butter for the past two decades, the Su-27 family has shown that they really do understand aerodynamics.
Supposably (meaning questionably, as opposed to supposedly), India has rogered up to development costs with Russia in the hopes of transfer of technology work (jobs and production capability) for India via HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd).
Which is also part and parcel of the MMRCA deal which Boeing/USG is hoping will get about 126 E/F models in that neck of the woods.
India wants to be a nexgen aviation weapons system producer. They apparently have the bank for it. Wonder where it’ll all go.
If they’ve got the bank for it, perhaps they might rationally consider feeding some of their destitute millions.
They tried that. Didn’t work. They are shifting, oh so slowly, from a socialist policy to a trickle down capitalist policy. In the long term, it is the better bet.
Why you old tree-hugger, knee-jerk anti-military lefty you!
Be reasonable Lex, the caste system works just fine. Besides, every time I call my cell phone provider to ask about weird long distance charges to Poland, they Indians who answer seem fairly well fed.
They’re also surrounded by Pakistan and China.
Besides this thing doesn’t look all THAT expensive. It’s clear they didn’t bother with all aspect stealth, the exhaust isn’t shielded or mixed at all so IR stealth is probably nil and radar stealth looks minimal and forward quarter only (not that I’m opposed to that!
). And I’m pretty sure it uses Saturn AL-41F engines and thus not a new engine. For most fighters (and most planes in general actually) new engine development is around 50% of all development costs.
It seems that as the US has come out with newer generation fighters, the following Soviet designs appear to this non-military, non-pilot eye as knock-offs very similar in proportions and shape. How much of the similarity is great aeronautical engineering minds thinking alike beforehand, and how much is due to “borrowing” our ideas (bearing in mind that the original math paper on wave reflection behavior that led to stealth was Russian)?
A classic example is the B-1, I believe.
Example of which? Was the Tu-160 “borrowed” from the B-1 or simply design convergence?
Some say the Tu-160 was a response to the XB-70, which in turn brought about the B-1, others maintain the opposite. I don’t know, honestly, but it’s funny the blurred line between design convergence and response.
On Monday I’ll query a B-1 pilot I know, see what he thinks.
As for which, I don’t know. Though I’m no aeronautical engineer, there have been some unblushing nods’ cross the red curtain over the years (or whatever the color the curtain is now).
It works the other way a little bit too. Recall the MiG-25 shocking America into the need to make the F-15, which was truly a super fighter when it came out and has proved itself as such in multiple combat examples since.
But then one day a Soviet pilot defected to Japan bringing his MiG-25 with him. We then realized it was full of vacuum tubes and had a turn radius the size of Bulgaria.
Of course, The flanker is a knock-off of the F-15 and F-14. Remember we gave F-14s to Iran and after the revolution they gave a couple to their newfound, albeit atheist, ally, the opposed-to-the-Great-Satan USSR. Compare the F-14’s inlets to the Flankers and they’re nearly identical. Also compare the F-14’s configuration, a massive wing that defines a horizontal plane with two engines beneath it and a channel between them for hanging AAMs and a forward fuselage blister above that plane, and then look at the Flanker’s configuration. There are photos out there of Iranian camaflouged Tomcats with Red Stars on them. They definitely copied the F-14 to make the Flanker, it’s basically a souped up Tomcat without the drawbacks of a swing wing.
I’d be really curious to see the numbers from the “stick” tests. Just a visual inspection leads me to think it was a lot of “cut and paste” based on analysis of the F-22. As stated above, some stealth features from a head on aspect, however the bottom, side and especially rear aspect leave a lot to be desired.
Dont see serated edges, standard round turkey feathers, rounded underside engine housing, and by what I can see a limited number of weapon hardpoints.
Overall, it will prob lead to limited Russian Airforce purchases, but increased overseas sales. Not that worried unless the SOB sells for 50 million bucks. Then the number game as eloquently described above comes into play even more
Yeah, Claudio, they’re probably trying to pull an F-104/F-16 sized export-sale number–that and keep India from leaving the ambit of it’s mil-aid/export mkt totally. (and therefore from the influence of their informal web of miladvisor/tech-rep attached people)
Considering India’s troubles with trying to buy the Admiral Gorshkov/Vikramaditya from the Russians I think the bloom is off the rose for them on relying on Russia as its primary arms supplier. Yes, they’re still more reliant on them than anyone else and are cooperating with them on PAK-FA, but it’ll be very interesting to see who they go to for their upcoming 126 fighter buy. The Flanker’s still in the running but I will be personally surprised if it wins.
The contenders for India’s MRCA are the Euro-canards, the U.S. Lo-teens and the MiG-35. The Flanker plays in a different league.
Oops. You’re right.
Still, I’d be suprised if the Fulcrum wins.
The Russians give them couple things that we and most of the Europeans won’t
Cheaper price, manufacturing, and access to some proprietary mat’l
As far as main weapon supplier, I believe that until they’re able to get their Defense industry geared up, they will still depend heavily on the russians. more bang for the buck, data, and limited other options. They are still not sure what game we’re playing there visavis the Pakistanis, the Chinese? not for a long time. Europeans, not for more than one or two systems. whats left other than the russians. Also, they’d rather get their domestic production ramped up to be less dependent and keep those billions in house. Just can’t happen as fast they wish it.
If it works it is a problem. It only has to be moderately survivable. With so few F-22s and the F-35 a big question mark, this thing along with other systems will make U.S. power projection a problem in the 2020s and beyond.
Give it time gentlemen – after all its only its first flight, and I believe, based on some comments in DefenseTalk.Com forums – from some people who seemed to know what they are talking about, only one of three prototypes.
Anyway – the best overall comment I saw was from Bill Sweetman, -> T-50 Flaptor. Sounds about right don’t you think.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a021e786e-04be-426b-ad32-dcbb54b90d00&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest
Thinking more of a flying prototype, e.g., X-35 or YF-22/-23. More here.
- SJS
I’d give this T-50 a 1 in 3 shot of making it into quantity production, at best. The Russians are still focused on recapitalizing their strategic forces (and having a bad time of it). Unless India really likes this a/c, I don’t this program happening. Russia hasn’t had sufficient money to modernize and extend the service lives of more than about 10% of its Flanker fleet, so a new program sounds very questionable.
I think this is a program looking for a sponsor.
Still – interesting design tradeoffs. It would be fascinating to watch it change as it developed.
Nice work. I keep forgetting to check in with you from time to time. So much web, so little time. (just lost 20m over at kiwidave’s link to sweetman, which linked to secretprojects.uk. Funny domain name, interesting discourse). What fun.
Most definitely agree. So a lot more refining in stock, the canopy, etc. It may have been a case of hurry to get this out there, after the delays experienced. Maybe also reason the test was done in Komsomolsk na Amur (KNAAPO) where it was built.
It will be a good number of years until this enters production. It will be their first generation and we’ll be working on at least our third.
It kind of looks like what you would get if an F-18 were to mate with an SR-71. Which I guess shows that there are only so many shapes that an airplane can have.
How sad that Grumman has been out of the fighter plane business for 30 odd years, perhaps, they could have made a Cat to deal with it. The F-37 Lexcat perhaps?
[...] Neptuns LexGen 4.5 [...]
[...] Neptunus Lex writes a bit about the T-50, a supposed fifth-generation fighter from Sukhoi: The Sukhoi T-50 prototype, a “fifth generation” fighter, completed a 47-minute maiden test flight in Russia’s Far East. The project, three years behind schedule, has been shrouded in secrecy during almost two decades of development and aims to rival the F-22 Raptor flown by the US Air Force, which began flight tests in 1997. [...]