I’m fiercely protective of mine. And hold a very low view of sex offenders. And, if anything, a lower view of those who enable their depredations, intentionally or otherwise.
So it’s with an admitted bias that I wonder about this week’s news that the remains of young Amber Dubois were found, just six days after a paroled child rapist John Gardner was arrested for the rape and murder of 17-year old Chelsea King. Both girls went missing in east county.
Amber had been missing for a year, the trail – never warm – had grown cold. And then last week, Gardner was arrested for Chelsea’s murder and then suddenly Amber is found.
It smacks of a plea deal to me, the kind of thing offered by a prosecutor to a predator in exchange for taking the death penalty off the table. In order to “bring closure”, maybe.
Which, fine. If that’s the way it’s got to be. Just place him in gen pop.
Whatever happens next?
He’s got it coming to him.
Indeed. Karma. Make it happen.
gen pop’s better than execution. Less costly to the taxpayer, more “karmic” indeed to the perp.
Anybody know someone on the inside? You know, a guy ‘who does this…thing’?
One wonders at the possibilities.
I say that violent, repeat sex offenders, such as this, should be reduced to Eunuchs. At a certain point, rights ought to become privileges, even if they may have been born with it.
I have first hand experience with these slimeballs. On my last tour before hanging up my anchors in San Diego, a PO1 who worked for me admitted to abusing his girlfriends daughter for the better part of 3 years. She was 12 when he admitted this to me (I won’t go into the details of how it came up, suffice it to say that the lid had been blown off, and he felt the need to do a pre-emptive admission). Over the course of 4 months, with my testimony being the sole voice for the young girl besides her own, he was finally taken into custody by SDPD. NCIS was waiting in the wings in case they didn’t prosecute him. He only did 9 months of a 1 year sentance, time off and all that bullsh!t. The thing is, once he was in custody, his tone changed. When asked by me to him in one tense visit in the courtroom if he thought he’d be cured, he admitted that he didn’t think he could stop, and alluded that maybe I should keep an eye on my own daughter as she grew up. As a result, I’ve been looking over my shoulder ever since (thank God for the Megans Law Database). Alas, I’m in NorCal now, and he still resides in San Diego. Look him up if you wish, he’s on the data base. Andrew J. Chochran, current scumbag and ex-Navy PO1. Wonder if Lex will leave his name up?
Can they be cured? Sure… with a high speed injection of lead. My cure can save countless more.
I agree. I have 5 sisters and 2 daughters. These bassids are incurable, and, like rabid dogs, there is only two solutions. Permanent incarceration, or death.
Randy … When I was still young enough to be called for jury duty, I was several times put in a jury pool for rape trials. I never served on such a jury, since when I was questioned about my thoughts on punishment, I stated firmly that I believed in castration for those convicted of this crime. My husband’s daughter had been kidnapped, terrorized and raped, and this further solidified my opinion. My husband, like Lex, believes in The Lead Solution for rapists, but the man was never captured.
Damn it.
Marianne
Marianne – I heartily agree. Seems like it’s still not enough for the damage these monsters do to so many people in their wake.
Marianne & Kris, I posit that bilateral orchiectomy may not be as effective as the Bobbitt gambit. If the perp must live, having gone to great length in the enormity of his crime, wouldn’t justice be served by shortening it?
Bill – If I may speak for the Lady Marianne and myself – I believe we were both indicating removal of “all of it”. Using castration as a catch-all phrase.
Ooohhh! Sorry for the misunderstanding. I’ve done castration as a medical procedure for prostate cancer (to turn out the lights on testosterone, so to speak). So I was thinking medicalese, not harvesting, so to speak. Inch by inch, row by row. Gonna make this garden grow. All it takes is a rake and a hoe…
LOL! But I don’t think John Denver had that procedure in mind.
I’m cool with permanent incarceration, but as always, when we “lay down the law” with a zero tolerance policy, some ass of a prosecutor will apply it to a case not worthy of it. No one of any sense thinks that John Gardner should ever see the light of day again.
But wasn’t there a case a year or two ago where some youngster of 18 was branded a sex offender for life because he got oral sex from an underage girl, when she misrepresented her age?
Brad,
I have seen this happen locally. A young fellow, 17 years of age, had relation with a girl who had told him was 18 years of age. When she found she was in a family way, and only 15, her father demanded that the DA prosecute the kid as a sex offender. Fortunately the judge came down on the side of the boy, but only after the girl admitted she had lied about her age.
This is one reason why I am concerned about mandatory sentencing laws, because they don’t allow the judge to consider the situation and any mitigating circumstances. It’s also difficult when the DA wants to notch his gun belt because he’s running for election.
But most of these scum bags deserve whatever we can give them.
A child rapist gets parole? And now the DA possibly trades the remains of another child for not killing the perp who most likely killed both?
I’m finding this sort of difficult to square with my abhorrence of honor killings. We pride ourselves of being a nation of laws, yet we trade away punishment under those laws for easier convictions of lesser charges, or saving the taxpayer dime, and thus make the rule of law less effective and more importantly less absolute. It makes us all less equal under the law when a first-time offender gets a harsher sentence than a two-time offender who trades in the undiscovered body.
A vengeful person might find a convicted murderer in general population, perhaps a few of them, serving life with no parole. He might join with others and offer a bounty to these killers for every sex offender killed in prison. Couple of cartons of smokes, a few books and maybe some decent shoes, probably would buy a lot from men with not much left to lose. But that would be vigilantism, wouldn’t it?
But if the law is not being upheld, equally and fairly to all, isn’t vigilantism the natural response by the citizenry, to take back control of the fundamental function of a dysfunctional government?
It’s a rather heady question, one prosecutors might wish to think about before handing out plea deals.
– Max
Max, I’m not at all diminishing the duty of the prosecutors to prosecute on behalf of the people, and to uphold the law.
And I’m a firm believer in the ultimate (and rapid) sanction for heinous crimes.
But as a practical matter, they also have a duty to the family of Amber DuBois. And indeed to Amber herself. Is it better to secure a death penalty for the murder of Chelsea King, and no justice for Amber?
Or do we make an imperfect bargain? Better half a loaf than none.
And can you imagine the stink Amber’s family would have raised if the prosecutors had been offered a solution to her case and declined, just to have an outside chance at a death penalty in the King case?
As a practical matter, XBrad, I’m kind of torn on the whole idea. Would I prefer solving two cases and the guy lives, maybe goes up for parole again, or solve one and the guy never has a repeat offense? As a citizen I’m for the latter, but as a father I can see where the former would ease some concerns for the family — KIA vs MIA at least gives you facts to work with so you can move on without question.
As a father I’m also thinking a dead child predator is one that can’t affect another family the same way he may have done mine.
So, yeah, kind of hard to reconcile. We reserve the death penalty for those crimes so off the scale of human behavior that societal recognition of basic human rights no longer applies. To drop the penalty for that offense to the level of lesser crimes seems a basic affront to the society these laws are designed to protect.
Had the guy killed a cop we’d not likely see these sorts of balancing acts. But we are told he killed two young girls. Which is the greater affront to our civilization and its moral norms?
– Max
Believe me, Max, I have NO problem with the death penalty. I’m pretty much all for it for just about any murder (I’ll concede there are some “heat of the moment” instances, but not many) and I cannot fathom why we as a society have released a convicted child rapist.
But I’m fairly confident that he won’t be before a parole board again. If a deal was cut (and FbL reminds us that there’s no confirmation there has been), I’d be OK with that.
Plea bargains are the only way some prosecutors can get convictions, Max — over the years, the Law and Justice have taken divergent paths. Judges have ruled that the police only have the responsibility to maintain public order, even if that puts individual citizens at risk *while those citizens are being assaulted*.
“Vigilante justice” is a Hollywood Western myth — Committees of Vigilance were usually formed because a crime had been committed and there was no local Peace Officer within a hundred miles to seek out and arrest the perpetrator, *not* to break said perp out of the local hoosegow and lynch him before his execution date.
That said, when a local Kluxer offshoot calling itself “The Silver Bullet” burned a cross on our RC Church lawn back in about 1955, our pastor warned them off, then cut loose with both barrels.
Ever see what a double-load of rock salt from a .12-gauge will do to a deputy sheriff’s uniform, even when it’s worn beneath a white sheet?
But, Chief, that wasn’t the original and genuine Klan, which was a veterans’club, and strictly racist; that was the latter-day, or Indiana Klan, which went after Roman Catholics, Jews, people who drank likker, went swimming on Sunday, etc usw. Sorta like the Phelps family.
There were lots of them, too. Have you seen that famous photo of them marching in Washington, D.C.?
On the main creepy subject, I do still wonder how I would have reacted when 8 years old, if approached by Arthur C. Clarke offering help with math homework for a quid pro quo. I had already read all of his books and was a big fan…
P.s. To explain, for those who don’t know: There were rumors that Clarke’s knighthood was held up for a while because he had an entirely too enthusiastic affection for young boys.
The original Klan started as a joke, and morphed into a resistance organization as the occupation of the south became deeply corrupt.
Bill, I differentiate vigilante justice and frontier justice. Frontier justice was when there was no authorized law, such as in the territories and settlements ahead of the government during our Westward expansion. In those cases, the law was what the group decided applied and if you were lucky there was a level-headed group member with some persuasive powers.
A few miles from me is a tree, an old cottonwood. On that tree hung two men, about 150 years ago. One was a cattle rustler, everyone was sure. The other claimed he had only met the rustler the day before and was just riding with him westward towards Rapid City to strike his claim.
Both were hung, justice being a new thing and the settlers wanting to be careful to get it right. This lesson was apparently lost, in 1882 we tried to hang Thomas Egan (there is a town by the name of Egan just north of Sioux Falls) for the crime of killing his wife. Took us three tries, two ropes, and in the end we hung an innocent man — his step-daughter confessed just prior to death years later.
For true vigilante justice, taking the law into one’s hands when government has refused to act in accordance with the law, that’s a rare issue up here. The Clan has already been referenced, I’d posit that the Battle of Athens was probably the last real case to be seen and that’s obviously far south and was within the realm of law enforcement. The War of Lincoln County in New Mexico, where Billy the Kid gained much fame, is probably another.
Truth be told, the Old West as depicted in movies and television, never existed.
– Max
Put him in a secure van, bring him to my house, give me the cuff key, leave.
Skip? You don’t want the keys to the cuffs. That would remove a number of options from your playbook. See the movie Mad Max for reference material.
I’m told Fargo is also a good movie to watch in these cases, but I discount that as living so close to Fargo I am fairly certain it’s actually a documentary. But folks won’t believe that.
– Max
There was a movie out awhile back – Law Abiding Citizen (Gerard Butler & Jamie Foxx) – where a father, after witnessing his daughter being gunned down before his eyes, takes revenge on the perps (and the DA, and the judge, and…). One part I’ll not forget is when he finally captures the guy who shot his daughter, drugs him with blowfish poison (which paralyzes you while leaving you fully conscious), then takes him to an abandoned warehouse and unveils a number of various and sundry tools (blowtorches, razors, pliers, etc.) and… you get the picture.
Here’s the thing: I have a beautiful 6-yr old daughter, and I can completely understand the motivation to exact revenge in the most horrible way possible if anyone were to ever harm her (and like Lex, I’m a dead shot – and I use Hydrashoks!). But some other part of me can’t help but wonder if that is really justice as God intended it. Remember, God dealt with the first murderer (Cain) not by killing him, but by pardoning him – He even gave Cain a mark so that no one else would harm him.
Something else just occurred to me as I write this: much as we may hate to admit it, the truth is that God died for John Gardner and loves him neither more nor less than He loves you or me. This has nothing to do with one paying the consequences of one’s sin, but the fact is that God’s love for His creation is unconditional. Do I think that Gardner has forfeited his right to life for the crimes he has committed? Absolutely. Would I want to be the one to take his life? No, not unless I happened upon him in the commission of one of his crimes. Will I pray that the Holy Spirit will convict him of his sin and lead him to an understanding of our Father’s undying love and forgiveness? Absolutely.
Wow. I read that as a unique phrasing for him being damned, yet hoping that he will be cleansed and returned to the fold. That reminds me of The Deathly Hallows, which posits that murder is such a violation that the murderer’s soul is rent apart by the act. While the soul can be restored, it requires the murderer to feel honest and complete remorse for the act, and the full understanding of the damage done to the victims means the murderer may not survive the effort. I’m wondering if you mean something similar.
Regardless, that’s a powerful evocation of thought.
Another thought: if Gardner has committed other crimes, and there are more bodies to be found, is it not worth it to spare his life from the death penalty in order to close these heretofore unsolved cases and give the families some degree of closure? I cannot imagine the anguish of having my daughter disappear and never knowing if she were still alive while I was powerless to help her. If sparing Gardner’s life has finally brought closure to Amber Dubois’ family, then I would say that it’s a fair trade. He’ll eventually die, one way or another, but now – finally – her family can get on with the grieving process and move forward.
On a side note, I know that I often seem to be the voice of morality/reason here on this blog, but hey – I’m preparing to be a Navy chaplain, right? Would you expect anything less? Oh, and for those in the area – I’ll be preaching tomorrow evening at 7pm at Gateway Community Church in Escondido. I expect to see you there Curtis!
With all due respect Major, IMO the commentariat here as a whole, is as, if not more, moral and reasonable than any other place than I have managed to stumble across.
I would love to here your sermon. Will it be available in a digital format?
Major, have you ever considered the possibility of spreading the word via a personal site/blog/whatever and a podcast or mere .mp3 recording of your sermon?
I’m thinking you’ll find it an inexpensive method of reaching the flock that wants to hear but cannot make the journey to see you in person.
I’d download it, if it’s any indication of demand.
– Max
Major – agree with Max and Will. Record yourself and put the .mp3s on your blog. I’d add it to my iPod in a minute.
With all due respect Major, since you are prepping for a higher office:
The CinC of all lower authorities has expressly ordered that those convicted (by due process with sufficient witness) be sent directly to Him for His justice to be imposed. The foundational Biblical premise for capital punishment (removal of the capit=head) is that certain violations of His law are so egregious that these crimes (against Him) demand immediate redress in front of the bar of God. Our concerns regarding the emotional distress of other victims are subordinate to His requirements. Capital punishment is not vengeance, and it is not justice; it is sending the perpetrator to the legitimate Locus of vengeance and justice.
God set the penalty of death for those who shed the blood of man. That authority was given to man after the flood. While a man can come to Christ and so obtain salvation, that does not remit the punishment that God has set for man under the regime that God gave us. Paul tells us that government was set up by God to deal with evil doers.
As for God’s love being unconditional, that is not the case. God loves man and so gave the life of His Son for the remission of sins, but such remission is conditioned on repentance. God does not love the man who is unrepentent, and will condemn that individual eternally. God will grant mercy, rather than justice, only for someone who admits their sinful nature and surrenders to him.
You are confusing God’s love with the requirements for salvation.
God’s love IS unconditional – Romans 5:8 says, “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” He didn’t wait for us to accept Him before He loved us.
However, salvation *does* come with conditions – as you noted, it is first necessary for one to repent of one’s sins and accept the proffered gift.
I’m not convinced she was discovered as a result of a plea bargain–for a couple reasons. Not saying definitely no, but…
1. They are refusing to state what evidence led them to DuBois’ body, but acknowledge there have been some recent discoveries. That makes me think they have no confession or 100% proof and so are withholding what they know from the general public in hope of receiving a confession or trapping the perpetrator (for example, Gardner letting slip something that they already know about DuBois’ death).
2. I have some degree-of-separation knowledge that says the prosecutor is out for blood on the bureaucracy that enabled this and wants the death penalty, and she’s no shrinking violet… In fact, the first thought of those who know her after Gardner was ID’d was, “Oh, my! She’s gonna be on the warpath”).
3. I’m not sure if this supports my thoughts or Lex’s, but rumor is Gardner taunted the investigators after he was arrested when they asked them where Amber’s body was (They had him for several days and held on suspicion of murder before they ever found her body).
Not “fine” with me – - I don’t consider the return of remains to be worth allowing one of these prophylactic posterchildren to continue to draw breath.
If you can hang em for conviction on one murder, where’s the logic in not hanging them to get conviction on two?
But then, I rate “closure” a distant second to “justice” and even further behind “repeat offense prevention.”
Sarge, I totally agree.
Ensure that the quilty person can NEVER repeat their crime. If others have qualms pulling the switch, the trigger or pushing the plunger -I would happily volunteer to perform the task. And would sleep quite well, thank you.
For those that have moral/ethical/religous concerns about taking a life of this type of person -with all due respect, keep it to yourself or for Freshman 101 bull sessions. IMO that argument has the same merit, and relevance, as discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I do not want another innocent person losing their life because of someones Holier Than Thou attitude. I can provide examples of persons who have been “rehabilitated”, or “paid their debt to society” commmitting murder, rape, torture and other evil acts. I am unable to find a case where a dead pervert has come back to commit further evils.
The most efficient maner in which a murderer can pay his debt to society is swift lead poisoning. The Chinese have the right idea on this one.
Does it surprise anyone that that the Amber Dubois disappearance case (Escondido, CA) has no one in custody for the crime and the Chelsea King case (Rancho Bernardo, CA) has a convicted sex offender awaiting trial. Could it be where they happened to die or that the one family is poor and the other affluent. Is anyone surprised that the Amber Dubois family, knowing the history of the Escondido Police went and hired a private investigator who passed along information as to where the body was ultimately found. We all remember the Stephanie Crowe Murder Case where the Escondido Police Department falsely accused her brother Michael Crowe and forced confessions (as a 01/15/2010, Michael Crowe, won a case against Escondido PD). Could it be that the criminal is a member of the Escondido Police Department and all of them are protecting their own (like the Catholic Church) and that’s why they originally said she was a runaway to deflect additional searches. Could it be that the police are just following “Escondido City Council“ (Gang of Three – Marie Waldron, Sam Abed and Ed Gallo)orders to chase around un-document workers and not do their job of protecting and serving the residents of Escondido. It kind of makes you wonder if the “Gang of three” has ask the police to formally or informally investigate potential or future political opponents, it makes you wonder doesn’t it. Of course it could be that Escondido Police Department is filled with incompetent dullards who love taking steroids in their attempts to look like their body builder heroes. The only thing I can say for sure is there is something wrong here.