The Marines are busy winning hearts and minds in Helmand Province, Afghanistan. Which is a pretty good thing, because if this WaPo article has it right, they’re not winning many hearts or minds at CENTCOM:
The Marine approach — creative, aggressive and, at times, unorthodox — has won many admirers within the military. The Marine emphasis on patrolling by foot and interacting with the population, which has helped to turn former insurgent strongholds along the Helmand River valley into reasonably stable communities with thriving bazaars and functioning schools, is hailed as a model of how U.S. forces should implement counterinsurgency strategy.
But the Marines’ methods, and their insistence that they be given a degree of autonomy not afforded to U.S. Army units, also have riled many up the chain of command in Kabul and Washington, prompting some to refer to their area of operations in the south as “Marineistan.” They regard the expansion in Delaram and beyond as contrary to the population-centric approach embraced by Gen. Stanley A. McChrystal, the U.S. and NATO commander in Afghanistan, and they are seeking to impose more control over the Marines.
The U.S. ambassador in Kabul, Karl W. Eikenberry, recently noted that the international security force in Afghanistan feels as if it comprises 42 nations instead of 41 because the Marines act so independently from other U.S. forces…
They question whether a large operation that began last month to flush the Taliban out of Marja, a poor farming community in central Helmand, is the best use of Marine resources. Although it has unfolded with fewer than expected casualties and helped to generate a perception of momentum in the U.S.-led military campaign, the mission probably will tie up two Marine battalions and hundreds of Afghan security forces until the summer.
“What the hell are we doing?” the senior official said. “Why aren’t all 20,000 Marines in the population belts around Kandahar city right now? It’s [Taliban leader] Mullah Omar’s capital. If you want to stuff it to Mullah Omar, you make progress in Kandahar. If you want to communicate to the Taliban that there’s no way they’re returning, you show progress in Kandahar.”
CENTCOM’s strategy is to protect population centers using the “oil spot” strategy of Baghdad. The Corps, on the other hand, is seeking to minimize the Taliban’s freedom to maneuver through vast swaths of otherwise uncontested battlespace outside the cities as they did in Anbar. They are – as ever – fiercely resistant to the notion of breaking up the Marine Air-Ground Task Force elements in order to plug a hole in somebody else’s dyke.
The Marines Corps boasts that there are “no finer friends, no worse enemies.” CENTCOM is learning what Navy has long understood: They can be damn stubborn partners. And they are well aware of the “fierce urgency of now”:
“The clock is ticking,” Nicholson told members of an intelligence battalion that recently arrived in Afghanistan. “The drawdown will begin next year. We still have a lot to do — and we don’t have a lot of time to do it.”
If the several states are the “laboratories of democracy” in Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis’ terms, perhaps the services can function as “laboratories of counter-insurgency.”
I wouldn’t bet against them.
I am more inclined to trust the judgment of Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children than that of the Army in this regard.
If it works, don’t fix it.
Not to nitpick, but isn’t this a tug of war between ISAF/USFOR-A and CENTCOM J-3 peeps?
Seems to me that the Marine bubbas at J-3 have a plan; and no one, not even Stan McChrystal is supposed to screw with it. Just my 2c from someone living with a Radio Batt SNCO.
Das Teufelhunden are annoying the Army.
I am shocked…shocked.
The Army should give them mission orders and support as requested (mostly by leaving their organic support alone) and wait.
In return the Corps with give the Army what it gives the Navy. Victory Ashore.
Proven system. Hasn’t failed yet.
As a retired Seabee, who was with the Marines when they tore Fallujah apart one block at a time in late 2004, all I can say is SEMPER FI to my Marine Brothers & Sisters (yes, there are some pretty HOT female Marines who may love you tonight but have no issue with getting up & kicking your Arse in the early AM)
Marines have two jobs – Killing people & breaking things.
Anything less than that, falls under the category of ” Social Work”
If that is what the guys in CENTCOM who polish seats with their fat-arses want “social work” performed, they should call in the G-D damn SALVATION ARMY !!
We can’t go admitting victory, now can we?
We’ll just have to lose, whatever the cost.
Glad to see nothing has changed Army-USMC-wise over the 42 yrs since my time at DaNang in I-Corps, RVN, 67-68. Looks pretty much same old, same old….
“What the hell are we doing?” the senior official said. “Why aren’t all 20,000 Marines in the population belts around Kandahar city right now? It’s [Taliban leader] Mullah Omar’s capital. If you want to stuff it to Mullah Omar, you make progress in Kandahar.
That “senior official” is a fool. The Marines are using the same strategy and tactics that *worked* when we (Army *and* Marines) used them forty years ago in the Land of the Great Two-Way Gunnery Range. The Marines remembered that, and the Army didn’t.
Kandahar City isn’t MO’s center of gravity — the population of Helmand Province is. You can secure Kandahar City from now until doomsday and the only thing you’ll accomplish is validating that the Soviet model of securing a country still doesn’t work.
Mao’s “fish” were not his invention, he merely discovered the truth and put in terms the other Reds would understand. The ideology of the insurgents doesn’t matter, all that matters is what works.
In this case the USMC is simply trying to drain the sea the fish swim in. If McChrystal’s people are really the people complaining, they need to be sent home and replaced with a Marine staff instead.
The most alarming thing in this article – which seems quite good – is that it was the Marines who initiated the first outreach with the mullahs. Why in the name of all the Sultan’s camels are we trying to avoid religious engagement? While not an Afghan expert, my sense is that religion plays more than a peripheral role in that society?
But alas, the other thing I’m finding out from the discussion is that we are just not able to plant misinformation effectively. If there was some strategic point in creating the impression of rivalry between the Army and Marines and therefore spinning the press to talk about this it would be a bit more cheering (perhaps as a way of nudging fence-sitters locally or inviting an attack by the Taliban and Al-Q in a killing zone where collateral damage wouldn’t be so high). Even a bit of deception could go along way here, but to air out our dirty laundry in a way that simply communicates to the enemy what we are trying to do and how is problematic to say the least – but then I doubt our enemies in Afghanistan can leverage this into an overall strategy given their arrogance and fanaticism – subtlety beyond the tactical/operational level is not their strong suit.
“to air out our dirty laundry in a way that simply communicates to the enemy what we are trying to do and how”
Why not? The ISAF J2 did it just a few weeks ago, as thoroughly thrashed out in these pages.
And he did it via a freaking thinktank, CNAS no less. LTCol Nagl, (USA Ret) is the president which may have something to do with it. Best answer I heard was “so what, it’s his ball of wax, he’s supposed to fix it not cry about it.”
OK, let me see if I get this right. Building up a big base is a bad thing, but only if the Marines do it. Kandahar, complete with BK, Subway, TGI Friday’s and even the Canadian Tim Horton’s — good thing. Building FOBs next to what was formerly the second biggest town in Helmand so as to encourage the population to feel secure enough to return? Bad thing. Building FOBs that don’t do much but get American’s killed? Must be a good thing, due to the lack of criticism from “senior officer(s) at the NATO regional headquarters in Kandahar” — seemingly reserved only for Marine operations.
In a bureaucracy, the worst thing one can do is to make other members of the bureaucracy look bad — which is exactly what the Marines are doing. A’stan had been run by a NATO-led ISAF for years, until the Army took it over in 2007. Didn’t accomplish squat. And the Army did such a great job, that the second guy there got the no band change of command. Now, a lowly MC one star has succeeded in making the ISAF bureaucracy look bad. The fangs are out. General Nicholson, obviously due to his quality education, probably isn’t paying attention to the barking dogs. The caravan is moving on.
Final shot — if “senior officials”, from the comfort of the White House mess, want “all 20,000 Marines in the population belts around Kandahar city”, then I’d start by cleaning out the dining room at the TGI Friday’s in the Kandahar palace, before I diverted resources. The Marines unscrewed Anbar — and now they are unscrewing the Taliban’s COG. Only fools mess with success.
Interesting that the first thing my son’s Marine ROTC recruiter told him to do while in the application process was to read the Marine Officer’s handbook and “The Village” by Bing West.
Learn from history. That’s what Marines seem to do better than the other services.
To quote General Mattis, speaking to his Marines: Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
and speaking to Sunni sheikhs and Baathist ex-army officers in Fallouja “I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m begging you, with tears in my eyes, if you fuck with me, I will kill you all.”
Now, being on the opposite side of that conversation, who would NOT understand what the man had just said? Even rhetorically I’m wasting my time asking why the hell can’t the White House and the Pentagon get their collective head around a policy like this?
The Marines Corps boasts that there are “no finer friends, no worse enemies.” CENTCOM is learning what Navy has long understood: They can be damn stubborn partners. And they are well aware of the “fierce urgency of now”
A stubbornness and fierce urgency born out of experience and spilled blood, a lesson taught to us from day one in Boot Camp. If it can’t be negotiated with, kill it. Situation over.
I LOVE Mattis! I heard a speech of his last years and I’m STILL pounding the table!
The Marines, more than any other branch read and understand their history, and that of their opponents. All the Army needs to do is make sure they get all the beans, bullets and gas the Marines need.
I am currently reading “From Beirut to Jerusalem” by Thomas Friedman. It should be required reading for anyone having anything to do with this part of the world (and I include the ‘Stan in that broad sweep). It seems, IMHO, that the Marines have learned to play by the “Hama Rules” that Friedman discusses. He refers to the Syrian city of Hama, raised by Hafaz Assad in 1982 in response to revolt by the Muslim Brotherhood. The basic principle being that any threat to authority must be met by overwhelming brutality, and that is the only response that will be respected by one’s adversaries; anything less is viewed as a signs of weakness. There are longstanding cultural/historical basis for this (the Hama uprising was as much a clan dispute as a political challenge) that Friedman explains quite well.
While I am not comparing the Marines to Assad, I do think they, more than any others on our side, have come to understand that these are the rules that need to be played by at times, and are the rules that will ultimately bring the other side to heel.
Hama rules are all you can play by in the ME. Strength and power is all they understand.
There’s no argument quite so persuasive as success.
Semper Fi, my mudpuppies; Time again for the generational lesson, re-teaching the Army that “boots on the ground” literally means BOOTS on the GROUND.
Never, ever should an Army officer be placed in command over Marines.
Ah Chaps, boys night out is understood. Putting adults in charge of marines is a necessity, not an option. Marines really are the lowest common denominator.
Seriously, worse than SEALS and that takes dedicated effort. Our host is running low on commentary. I can comment about FAST and other Marines for days. OK, weeks, perhaps months. You know it’s bad when a 2 star appears in your hooch because some idiot had an ND with a SAW.
ND?? I am not familiar with the term can you elaborate.
ND is a Negligent Discharge, Dave. It’s the new term for Accidental Discharge, which is the old term for pulling the trigger when you shouldn’t have pulled the trigger.
Like, in your hootch, with rounds locked and loaded, and the weapon on Rock ‘n’ Roll instead of Safe…
Well, if I were to negligently let one off into my leg, say, I certainly wouldn’t say so on the 911 call. I would say, “unintentional discharge.” As any gun nerd will tell you, there ain’t no such thing as an accidental discharge if the piece is designed right, and in good shape.
One should never say “negligent” about one’s deeds when talking to government employees and lawyers, even if that is the right word. Unintentional. Unententional.
In VN, the Marines were successfully executing a Civil Action program, as documented in “Our Own Worst Enemy,” and Westmoreland demanded they get back out to Search and Destroy missions. They had the locals coming to them and ratting out the VC/NVA in the area, because the Marines were actually helping them grow.
BTW, came from Chesty’s “Small Wars Manual” from the central American “work” at the turn of the 1900s.
They are not reinventing the rules, they are using some tried and true Marine developed strategies.
If anyone else has more history, pile it on!
It worked really well in the Delta (post August 1969), because we were maintaining the myth that we weren’t there so darned well that MACV didn’t bother to find out what we were accomplishing until after we’d accomplished it.
“We” meaning Marine Tiger Teams, Army Green Beanies, Navy SEALs, Air Force FACs, and, the crucial element which made it all work seemingly effortlessly, Army — naturally — helicopter pilots.
With an occasional cameo appearance by the Seawolves, of course…
And I can second that from first-hand observation 67-68, in I-Corps, xformed. It was widely acknowledged even at that time that not only did the Marines have the most effective Civil-Action WHAM program, they were the only ones whose heart was really in it.The Army had a more skeletal, less robust program “on paper” but generally paid lip service (to not include the Green Beenie A & B teams, MACV advisors assoc. with the ARVN, etc.) to it in favor of “making the fur fly.”
Oh, man! Preach it brother! Combined Action Platoons were the best thing we did over there! They were starting to develop an actual yeoman militia, like the kind we’re supposed to have. Prolly too dangerously uncontrollable by Powers that Be, both there and here, and so got squashed there, as here.
There is MY kind of teamwork! A Marine Corps TEAM that does its work together, on target, professionally, and is absolutely unstoppable on mission. WHEN the Marines show permanent success in Helmand, the timetable will disappear and the Army and Marine Corps will finish the job and be given the proper period of time to complete it.
Uncle Sam’s Misguided Children, indeed. Chesty is smiling big right now. Stay out of their way and let ‘em loose.
Subsunk
Always been my experience that Marines usually make the right decision, sooner, and at the lowest level of the COC, than any other outfit we have to project our interests. A key to their enviable record of success in engagement and victory.
This Army vs. Marine Corps… why can’t those idiots do things our way… bull-s*hit is all so very flipppen tiresome…can’t we all just agree that the Army is not the Marine Corps nor the Marine Corps the Army …they each do things differently… most well some not so… and leave it at that.
…I’ve said it here before…the overt and covert competition between them contributes mightly to each services excellence. Best
But, Snake, only if they are allowed to compete. The Military, alas, has become just another bureaucracy. That’s why the fangs are out and the claws bared.
All of this has happened before….
Once long ago and far away, before the old republic started it’s long decline, I had a lovely view of a war game. There I saw an Army bird and a Marine Major almost come to blows by recreating, in living color and stereophonic sound, the the head butting contest Pershing and Lejuene had over how to properly utilize USMC units operating in a joint force.
Now the decades have gone by and the wheel has again turned through 360… I believe some time ago the Corps offered to split the pie: Marines get the rockpile – Army gets the sandbox. Might not have been a bad thing… Unity of what?
Nice to know Col Tuesday is still around trying to run a Strac outfit. Or was that Thursday? Hard to remember, I do remember that Shirley surely was a beautiful young woman… But I digress.