This is one of the reasons that I myself was not much given to the whole “flyover” enthusiasm.
People could see.
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Career DecisionBy lex, on March 19th, 2010
48 comments to Career Decision |
Targets of Opportunityblog advertising is good for you Credo"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones "Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra" "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche "A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier "Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas "Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex Amazon AssociateFor the Effort!Winnar! Subscribe CategoriesPagesTagsacademy
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Although the pilots “inexplicably failed to recognize” how low they were flying, the board concluded, their lapse was neither intentional nor malicious.
Malicious, no.
Intentional, yes.
Hard deck was 1,000 feet AGL. If you’re going to use your baro altimeter as a guide, you check the map for terrain elevation and then add the grand — even a *student* pilot knows that.
Wow, after all these years thinking bug drivers were the smartest of the smart only to learn that nope, these two can’t tell the difference between 1000 AGL and what looks to be about 400 ft AGL. Grampaw Pettibone would be smokin mad at this behavior. New gripe in the ADB – aircraft flies 600 ft low.
They came up with “an excuse” to cover they backsides and it didn’t wash. Bummer. Next time they should be women so that their next post could be at the Pentagon as they continue to move up their career ladders.
However – for all the pansies and handwringing types: What they did did not look dangerous – speed was good, no low speed maneuvers…no more dangerous than strapping the plane on in the first place given that the noise makers might stop even at 1,000 feet and cause a lot of finger pointing and consternation when the plane contacts the ground.
All in all, they did not appear to be that much lower than the several fly-overs I’ve seen at the LA Coliseum…and I’d love to have had the fly-overs there come in lower and louder, too. In fact, I wish that MCAS El Toro was still operating so that we behind “The Orange Curtain” could enjoy the sound of freedom again and rub elbows with the fliers and their families (and the pansies in Irvine who moved into the area of loud noises around MCAS E.T. can kiss it).
If you were their skipper, Lex, what would you have done?
They’re chain of command seemed to try to cover their a$$’s a bit with the “unintentional” ruling. Right or wrong.
This is one of the reasons that I myself was not much given to the whole “flyover” enthusiasm.
Except when it was by accident after popping up out of a canyon, of course…
That was exactly the “story” that I was thinking of FBL!
Yeah,
I just re-read that last night for the thousandth time.
He hardly ever sees Danger Boy anymore”
Hey! Go Easy there. Lex was having navigational problems. That could happen to anyone! They properly disciplined him later. He was banished to a Carrier and they drug him, drug him, mind you, into Perth for a rather thorough chastening. Properly chastised, he calmed down a lot after that and served well for the remainder of his career.
I’ve always thought USNA grads (except Blues) should be barred from doing flyovers at USNA – Ramblin’ Wreck boys fit the same category…
Not much different that flying over Mom and Dad’s or Girlfriend’s house. Too much personal stake in it- too much pressure to look SH.
I suppose it is unfortunate that performing the fly-by “by the book” (as professional aviators are expected to do) would be considered “boring” by the witnesses, and by the aviators themselves. The message conveyed was “Look what we can do,” versus “Look what we are expected to do.”
They looked a little high and slow to me… especially compared to the old days. Sheesh!
More wussification of the country/Navy.
Right you are, Paul B. By these standards of conduct and “judgment” espoused by the current gaggle of big kids now in command (at seemingly almost all levels in all branches) that permanently ruined the careers of two valuable and highly-trained (at GREAT taxpayer-expense) Naval aviators, the vast majority of all combat pilots of every service who have EVER flown in defense of the Republic should have been grounded if history, memoirs, etc., are any guide.
I remember as a kid at Webb AFB Tx, walking across a Flickerball field on a Saturday afternoon after a Pilot Training class graduation (late 60′s) and seeing, within the width of the field, (because on the other side of the field was the Chapel) an F-100 fly past below eye level(there was a slight rise on my side of the field) at supersonic speed. I know, because of the shockwave and the fact that I ended up on my butt. Thought that was the coolest thing I could possibly conceive of and couldn’t think of anything I wanted to do more. Great Recruiting tool.
On the other hand, stalling a fighter out inside the confines of a modern football stadium with 100K people inside would NOT be a good thing.
All in when and where….
Richard Bong, Still the Ace of Aces for the US, was caught be General Kenney flat hatting through downtown San Francisco in a P-38. Kenney rang him up because he blew some woman’s wash off the her clothesline and Bong’s sentence was to go to her house and help her for one day.
These days, Bong would have been sent to the Infantry instead of rendering the important service he did in the SW Pacific.
They didn’t look much lower than flyby’s at USNA home games, and they were certainly under control. Permanent grounding seems a bit too severe of a punishment for this infraction. And I’m sure the crowd loved it.
Gear down flyby? Never seen one of those.
Crowd loved it. Nuthin’ got broke. No harm, no foul. Give ‘em a month or so of scrubbing out the head.
I dunno’… does this rise to the level of good ole “Spig” Wead crash landing into Admiral Moffet’s pool at his daughter’s tea party? Yes, safety and good judgment must come into play, but I just wonder if sometimes management isn’t taking things a bit too seriously?
Perhaps a letter in their Fitness Report, something to signify the appropriate level of concern about the safety of the public, pilots and equipment concerned. The people who “see” are the same people who are “paying the bill”. They are happy to see, they want to see… yes, and in safety.
Best flyby I’ve ever seeen was a pair of B-1s over a Jaguars Monday Night football game. As soon as they got to the stadium they pulled up and lit burner. Whole downtown Jax was shakin’ like Jello and we loved every second of it.
Was at that game Byron. Season Ticket Holding family. Loved it.
-CG
So if these pilots lost their wings, whatever happened to this aviator then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLPC-4Mj3N8
Must be a different safety culture now, I guess.
I think he’s got a blog now, or something.
I think from a CO’s point of view, the issue is trust. you give the 2 the mission, they acknowledge the limitations, you “trust” they will adhere to the rules (written in blood as we all heard countless times), and then you get the incoming flak without an “intent to fire” message. Shaving a hair is one thing, cutting it off by two thirds is another.
But it was cool. But not nearly as cool as this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLPC-4Mj3N8&feature=related
Or these aviators?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMmUaE3sTd4
What a shame to lose two highly trained men over something so petty.
Had lunch with a former VF buddy of his — his BIL is a GT grad, and was at the game. So he had “heard” about it right when it happened. He and I agree these two paid the price, not for what they did, but for an inability to come up with a better excuse than the rad alt – baro discrepancy piece of tissue paper.
Hung for culpable stupidity.
Like I said, malicious, no — intentional, yes.
If he’d said, “Sir, in my eagerness to show the American taxpayers what their hard-earned money buys — well, I screwed up…” — that probably would have saved him.
Oz Day Canberra Fly By Sea Venoms 50 years ago (unknown) Squadron linebook page cartoon comment: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/CanberraAustraliaDayFlypastSeaVenom.jpg
“I’m a ramblin’ reck from Georgia Tech and a h**l of an engineer” but obviously no longer a pilot.
I wonder why the wingman didn’t get off easier, since his only job was to stay on his leaders wing?
Because he lied about it too.
They didn’t have their wings pulled for screwing up a flyover, they got their wing pulled for coming up with a bullcrap story rather than fessin’ up. Would you want less than truthful officers in your command?
The same thing happened at a Angels Memorial Day flyover on the left coast. The Airboss gave the lead many opportunities to come clean, but to no avail.
Comment on some of the comments here:
-There isn’t a Naval Aviator around today who doesn’t know a flyby is the easiest way to run into trouble, regardless if its his Alma Mater, etc. Simply been too many who have burned for this in the recent past. Many guys avoid them entirely. Every CO puts the fear of God into his folks involved in one. These two were no exception, they knew the score and had received the proper guidance beforehand.
-The flight lead was not the type to do something dicey for any reason.
-BOTH guys screwed up, for all the reasons mentioned here. And yes, some sort of sanction was in order, regardless intent. Permanent grounding? Don’t agree. However, anybody doing a flyby in this day and age of cellphones, digital cameras and the Internet knows he’s on display worldwide, as these two were aware. Would seem to me to be a time when all the Spidey-senses would be humming, and these guys made a rookie mistake.
-The RADALT/BARO thing IS a rookie mistake, but I’m not convinced these guys were lying about it. Why call yourself out then come up with a rather lame excuse?
Is such a mistake a career-killer? I adhere to the nothing broken, nobody hurt line of reasoning. Probation, public humiliation/flagellation and maybe a loss of division/section lead quals for a time. But not the Full Monty (or close to it, they didn’t lose their wings).
And another thing… many of the folks burned at the stake for flybys in recent years went into full denial/defensive crouch when confronted. These guys called themselves out, and didn’t try to bullsh&t through it.
Hell I wish I’d seen it. I wish the Chain of Command had a sense of humor. Probably inspired a kid or two to think about joining. Reading about this probably inspired a half dozen to say “sounds like the fun is gone” and to change their dreams to something other than pursueing a Naval career.
I guessd if anyone ever rolled one on the deck they’d be shot.
Yeah I know, safety, rules, discipline, etc. But SH is SH and it all seems like a huge ass waste to me.
Two cents from a non-flying civilian.
I live in Atlanta. Bobby Dodd Stadium is in a dense urban area. I am talking within walking distance of skyscrapers and 16 lane freeways. As has been pointed out on these pages, low altitude + low speed = low options, exponentially. If things had gone wrong it could have been an inadvertant 9/11, given the population and building density of the area.
That is why they were grounded. The abject fear of having to explain how and why something like that could happen.
Craftsman – you should try a commercial flight into San Diego’s Lindberg Field sometime.
On approach, if you are seated on the right, you are about eye level with Mr. A’s restaurant a few blocks away. Or if you are seated on the left, you can see multiple high-rises actually rising above you, close-by in downtown. And if you happen to park on the roof of the notorious parking garage on final approach to Lindberg, the jet blast of approaching jets every few minutes will literally blow your hat off! They are merely feet away!
Yet this approach meets all FAA safety requirements, and these extremely close encounters happen routinely every few minutes a day. Yet it is far more dangerous – and if there ever were a problem, far more potentially disastrous than those two fine Naval Aviators in their relatively, ‘high & slow” benign flyover.
Their excuse wasn’t a lie. It was humorous. (And perhaps meant to be.) Back in the day, guys were applauded for making up like excuses when there were, no harm, no foul. It was part of the game. I guess there is no “game” left anymore… or humor, or esprit, or……
Back in the day, guys were usually put in “hack” for exceeding limits. They were never threatened with having their wings ripped off! Incredible. Sounds similar to the TSA…. give a guy power with a badge, and he goes overboard. Similarly, give a guy some stars or stripes in today’s much changed Navy, and he will erase a highly selected, highly expensive, and likely a highly talented guy or two because “he can.” I am not impressed. Talk about eating your own, just to show you can. Talk about insecure, ego.
This should have been handled at a low level, squadron or wing, with a good chewing out or some hack, or whatever. But that it is now in the press is a huge mistake – not of these pilots’ making either. That it allows even me to debate this, is absolutely ludicrous.
Who’s bungling is responsible for that?
Whoever fostered this public embarrassment, I wish he could have witnessed the personal F-8 flyovers for F-8 squadron CoCs, and flyovers for too many F-8 drivers’ funerals. They were the lowest, fastest, awesome, incredible, outstanding yet safe (they never had a problem) incredible flyovers one will ever see, because those guys were the best drivers in the world. They knew it, were not afraid to show it, and were not (severely) penalized for it. (And privately praised, while in hack.)
And none ever lost their wings. Indeed, a number later wore stars. They were warriors. They were incredibly good at what they did. They at the time were our nation’s finest. Some became early astronauts. And to an observer, what may “look” unsafe, was not unsafe… certainly not in their expert hands.
What has Naval Aviation become?
“On approach, if you are seated on the right, you are about eye level with Mr. A’s restaurant a few blocks away. Or if you are seated on the left, you can see multiple high-rises actually rising above you, close-by in downtown. And if you happen to park on the roof of the notorious parking garage on final approach to Lindberg, the jet blast of approaching jets every few minutes will literally blow your hat off! They are merely feet away!
Lovely description! I flew in just last Sunday and I always marvel at that approach–I call it waving to the people in their offices as we go by. Although I understand the pilots aren’t too crazy about it…
My search has reveled that the decision maker in this matter was Rear Admiral Richard J. O’Hanlon. Perhaps he is an honorable and just man. He should be. But from his biography, he seems to have been more political than operational. Moreover, he seems to have 33 years of naval experience, but has not ever experienced combat in all those 33 years. If I am wrong, I sincerely apologize. But if I am right, it explains a lot… sadly for the two superlative but unfortunate pilots punished by his overwrought decisions.
LOL flit! I’ve flown commercial out of SD (left/port side) and know EXACTLY what you mean! Especially with a low spiraling left departure turn-out.
PS:And in the am winter fog, too..
I had heard about the approach to the old Hong Kong AP over the years, but about 3 years ago was sent pics of jumbos making the approach and the camera was looking down on the jumbos in the concrete and steel canyon they were flying through.
I knew things were crowded in HK, but that was ridiculous.
My $.02: Unless the Navy has a surplus of combat experience pilots, what a wasteful decision. Major ass chewing and a tour doing Penance on Diego Garcia or Bumscrewalabad AF, yes . Permanent grounding a bit heavy handed.
Egos get bigger with rank. Wielding power because, you know, like a dog licking his own, he can. The SYSTEM rewards behaviors as moving up in rank only reinforces certain attitudes and methods. I have seen too many officers change, and not for the better, when they make G.O. . God’s and Generals….
“Gentlemen, the Rules of Engagement and the Hard Deck are established for your safety and the safety of others. You will obey them or you will be history. Is that clear?”.
Guys, orders is orders.
Now, if that had been a pair of F-14′s, and maybe Pinch turned the baro knob the wrong way, they might have gotten away with it…
As goes the nation, it follows that the .MIL will, in lockstep, follow.
Lex, were you and yours the last leaders of strong men, fighters ?
There are still warriors out there, in the ranks and wearing stars.
It’s just that we need to focus on being good more than looking good.
Usta be we could do both. These days I’m sensing a kind of monastic devotionism.
Takes the fun out of it.
The P.C. crowd is now in charge. After years of touchy-feely navel (or naval in this case) gazing, they have actually come to believe the indoctrination. No more “boys will be boys” and “knock that sh*t off”. Its “Let’s throw away a few million dollars and make an example out of these guys”. No longer do we have leaders, just politicians who will sacrifice anybody, anything on the altar of political correctness. No longer anyone left who has the ,um, intestinal fortitude, nope, balls to stand up say, yep, they done wrong, they get remedial instruction, and tell the yapping digerati to take a flying leap at the bit bucket.
I think the question in this, and similar, cases are can we be good without looking good occasionally?
Yes, things of that nature have cost the occasional pilot his life, and failed to return the AC to the taxpayers intended use. But, i doubt you will routinely get the kind of people you need in those cockpits when you routinely turn them out when they do something like this. Spirited young men do spirited adventurous things, and without those spirited young men willing to do silly adventurous things I question if we will have what we need when the shooting starts.
more chickenshit.
Persactly!