Say what you’d like about the rest, the man gives a good speech.
Oo-rah, corpsman!
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It’s mostly a good speech because it’s the God’s honest truth. Ollie just says it better than most.
Not to nit-pick, because I’m an Ollie fan all the way, but he is demonstrably, factually wrong about this Army being the most educated Army ever. Better (more realistic) training and better equipment? Certainly. But NOT better educated. The Army we sent to Vietnam circa 1965-1968/9 was, top to bottom, officers and enlisted, the best educated generational cohort in history. SAT scores peaked in 1963 and have been basically in un-interrupted free-fall ever since (despite statistical efforts to “re-center” the averages, dumbing-down the tests and institution of study systems [Princeton/Kaplan] to game the tests previously unk or eschewed by my generation.) The unfortunately (for America) small “war baby” pre-boomer generational cohort borno1940-45 is thus by the measure of SATs the highest academic achieving generational cohort in the history of America, save perhaps for the education attained by our Framers–and formed the core of the Army initially sent over to Vietnam. We learned to read pre-tv, didn’t even have rock & roll until we became teens, and drugs were pretty much non-existent–as were teen pregnancies, and most all of the other dysfunctional social maladies now besetting this nation. So I’m sorry, I have to call Ollie out on this one and stick up for my generation of geezers. Unfortunately there just weren’t enough of us to make a difference or indelible imprint on the nation in a way the boomers did–and more’s the pity….
Why yes, I think I WILL have another Barbancourt here in the early AM, thank you very much!
Virgil,
You are spot-on in your commentary about the SATs and what has happened to our education system since the 1960s.
It is not recognized just what the shock of the 1957 launch of Sputnik did for our educational system, at least for a decade (to be terminated by the coming of age of the useless generation in 1968). For a brief decade our educational system flared brightly in response to the Soviet space challenge.
I am a child of Sputnik. I would not have been given the incredible opportunity for higher education if Vanguard had gone up first. I remember the somnolent state that our educational system had begun to sink into during the mid-1950s, only to be supercharged in 1957.
Hmmm:
Occam’s Razor?
Gotta say, sir, I will say that, in my experience at a small northeastern liberal (so liberal that I, a northeasterner and center-left Democrat, get called “conservative”) arts college, it sometimes feels like the best predictor of success in college is family background (income and parental education, no doubt interrelated variables). The reasons aren’t those of “The Bell Curve,” so much as preparation for college.
You should see how they push AA/EO…I imagine it’s as bad as what Cdr. Salamander posts about USNA.
Totally disagree, Lex, and I’ll tell you why. If it were due only to demographics, one would expect the ABSOLUTE NUMERICAL numbers (not the averages) of those scoring a perfect 1600 to increase unabated (i.e., to reflect the educational accomplishments of the “privileged” Anglo-Saxon portion of the test-takers) even as the averages declined. INSTEAD, the absolute numerical numbers of those scoring perfect 1600s has declined as well. To me this reflects the effects of the educational system itself–NOT the changed demographics of the test-takers.
Should have said: “…changed demographics of the test-takers ALONE–although these changes play a major (but not the only) role in declining averages.
The SAT has been “re-normed” at least twice at least twice in the last 30 years. Each re-norming has actually been a dumbing down of the test. The ACT has seen similar tampering.
Secondary education has been denigrated badly in the last 50 years. I had to teach my kids phonics because the schools were teaching the whole word method, which is a formula for illiteracy. They started using TI-83s in High School with my kids. I had to make sure they could do the work without them, but my son still had problems with College level math in Engineering School.
The SAT is indicative of little these days. It used to mean something, but the only thing declining scores mean these days is that people have little idea just how bad things are in the schools because they have no idea what’s been done to the SAT.
How many people who enlisted in that time frame had taken the SATs? As Lex notes, demographics have a role to play. If only a quarter of the graduating HS cohort took the SATs, wouldn’t it stand to reason that they were likely mostly the highest achieving quadrile?
I’m not going to look up the numbers, but I’m almost certain that the education level, as denoted by HS graduates and those with some college, is greater in today’s Army than in the early-Vietnam era Army.
I’d also like to see a comparison of ASVAB and GT scores between that Army and today’s. I think that would be a better indication of the intellectual abilities of each group. Especially since the Army doesn’t track SAT scores.
Mind you, I’m not knocking that earlier Army. I’m sure they had some advantages that we no longer have. For instance, I’m sure their obesity rate was somewhat lower.
And other than the Class IVs that McNamara and his social engineer “whiz kids” forced on the military, it was better educated than the military of today. I know that from personal observation.
May I respectfully suggest that all the quibbles about “best educated” or “most intellegent” or whatever phrase you care to use are off the mark and detract from the basic message of the speech. He could have meant many things – the wide range of subjects they get in school now compared to the basic 3 Rs (or in the case of pirates the 3 Ahrrrrs), or maybe the greater amount of classroom work in basic now compared to what my dad got back in 1940. Open to a lot of interpretation.
Let’s look at the basic message that todays service member is a well trained and dedicated volunteer.
Joe, couldn’t agree more about the quality of tng, etc., about which I carefully qualified my remarks. And the thrust of MY remarks in no way were meant (as I also qualified) to detract from the overall thrust of Ollie’s remarks. It is just that all too often those praising (like Ollie) the overall quality training and general espirit d’corps of today’s Army mask in their remarks the very real deterioration in today’s educational standards that has taken place. It is a laudatory comment on those who have devised the armed forces present-day tng and in-house education that they have managed to a large extent to overcome having to work with a baser metal than otherwise would be the case if educational standards and achievement K-16 today were the same as that of my generational cohort.(IMHO–and
I DO mean humble–I’m humbled around here all the time:) )
I wasn’t trying to point any fingers, Virgil, I just saw a bunch of comments going down this road and decided to try to divert traffic back to the highway, not this winding, but scenic, back road.
WE know what you are getting at Joe, and I have no problem with it. But, as for the rest, what VX says.
Thank you, Joe! Sorry, vx and QM… it is nit-picky. My guys are smarter than your guys? Come on! I was in the Vietnam generation and have 4 kids in today’s forces. Your arguments beg the question.
The question should be about the PRIDE we all share in America and her service men and women. I have a daughter who was backing up the Navy Corpsman, serving in the Medical Corps in a Field Hospital the same day this picture was taken. I have a son-in-law, a Chaplain, who will be leading troops like those you see pictured. They’re not praying before going out to play a football game, they’re praying before going out before “mortal combat”! Some of them won’t come back! They know that!
“We’re Americans… That’s what we do.”
I’m sorry guys, but it just seems to me that this is what this is about. Thanks again, Joe.
“How many people who enlisted in that time frame had taken the SATs? ”
Now you are on to something. This is the same Apples to Kumquat comparison that gets made between the U.S. and Europe and Japan. It you try to test everyone, your averages are going to be lower than if you only test those you deem intelligent enough to even try.
One of the topics of conversation we used to have over there was whether or not LBJ had jiggered the Army’s structure with the intent of killing off the educated middle class.
We never resolved that question to our satisfaction…
Undergrad Progressive … The best predictor of success in college, whatever your political persuasion, is a solid family environment containing concerned and involved parents who are themselves educated, whether by formal schooling, or a tough life containing wise choices, and who respect education as a preparation for a realistic, successful life. Got to be a willingness in the parents to discipline flighty, easily distracted kids when necessary, and a refusal to award praise and trophies for non-achievement, as our present educational system does. This introduces early in a child’s life a knowledge that the world is “not fair”, something that he/she had better learn as soon as possible, and that the world rewards persistence. Get knocked down by Fate, pick yourself up and get back in the game.
Asians, in my experience, have many of these characteristics, familially speaking, which accounts for their high SAT scores, and the necessity for college entrance supervisors who want to abide by the politically correct mandates for diversity, to change their standards, because so many Asians were qualifying for entrance to colleges with their high SAT scores, that it skewed the diversity statistics for entry-level students.
Guess it never occurs to the colleges to let the chips fall where they may.
Marianne
MM,
Have you read “Outliers” (Malcolm Gladwell) yet? Very interesting book regarding exactly what you are speaking about. I will say I was a bit suspicious of his hypothesis at first, but as the book winds on his research really starts to make sense. Though it’s funny, he’s getting paid all this money for a theory you’ve discovered on your own.
To hell with Malcolm Gladwell. Read any post on Steve Sailer’s site, instead.
Certainly true to a large extent. I would go as far as to say that family environment and background (influenced by the culture one is raised in) is the major factor for success in anything!
Day-um! There must be something wrong with that clip – the last minute or so was kind of blurry.
BRAVO ZULU Corpsman! WELL DONE!
That is at least as much a comment on how the mind of the Conservative works, as opposed to the mind of the Progressive. A Conservative will tend the wounded on either side, because they are humans. While a Progressive will only aid those who can help him get what he desires. Thank God that the US Military can inculcate that we will aid others, because they are humans, and if you are the enemy, and are wounded, we will help you, too.
Like that little girl in the post at Sal’s last month, where her big brother carried her cross country after she set off a Taliban mine, so he could get her to the US Marines, because they and thier USN Corpsman would take her, and do everything they could to save her. The look on her face, as she was loaded on the helo was one of relief, as well as being scared. But she seemed to know that, ” I am in the clutches of the Americans, now, I am going to be alright”.
Amen! My former Div-O from the Sylvania forwarded the link to that clip more than a month ago. Like Joe, I thought the last minute or so was blurry and needs to be redone.
Scott, do you have a link to that post? I would like to read it and maybe post it a few places to show how 99.9% of our service members are.
As the Cylon Centurions used to say, ” By your command “:
http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/2010/02/your-navy-at-work.html#comments
An industrious little Badger, aren’t you?
Yeah he is. ‘Phib’s porch is obviously better in the Badger’s view since he has an avatar over there, but all we get here is a blank square.
I think Lex should do something about that, and as the resident badger hunter I’m hoping he lets me slip the leash.
I would have one here, as well, if I only knew how!
It’s easy! Just go to,
http://en.gravatar.com/
and click on “Get your Gravatar Today” the instructions will tell you how to do it. You will need the graphic you’ll use resident on your computer as you will upload it to the site. You can have more than one so you you can switch around if you want. The Gravatar is keyed to the email address that you use on WordPress sites. So anywhere you post, when the blog is WordPress, it will use that Gravatar.
Dammit, another blurry post. Thanks, Scott.
My foreclaws are just a blur on the keyboard!
I just wanna see Ollie and Jim Webb put on gloves and get in the ring again. I would pay money to see that. Judging from his books, The Senator from Virginia has resented the outcome of that first match they had for all these years since then.
Geezer fight! Git yer bets down!
Speaking of our Marines, and their protectiveness of all human beings, both little and big, I recall a story about the aftermath of the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon, which illustrates all the great things I love about our military.
There was a nursery/day school right across the street from the damaged side of the Pentagon. In the middle of the uproar, the teachers and staff were rushing around trying to protect and calm the little ones who had been left in day care. Seeing this, a Marine unit moved across the street and asked if they could help with the problem. They moved the cribs with the infants into a circle, corraled the older kids and teachers inside the circle, and then surrounded the whole group outside the circle with their Marines, guns ready to use if necessary.
Talk about “circling the wagons.” Zane Gray would be proud.
Marianne
Well, yeah. They are the most earnest military outfit on the planet. No better friend, etc. They can be annoying at times, but of all of the experiences I’ve had with US Marines, the worst I can say about any of them was that it was, uh, “neutral.”
The Marines are absolutely the best at teaching manners to rowdy young male neurotypical yahoos. (by “manners” I mean knowlege of when to get violent and when to play nice)
A younger cousin of mine is a retired HM2. Served with The Marines. In the family. God keep them all.