Credo
"Sign on, young man, and sail with me. The stature of our homeland is no more than the measure of ourselves. Our job is to keep her free. Our will is to keep the torch of freedom burning for all. To this solemn purpose we call on the young, the brave, the strong, and the free. Heed my call, Come to the sea. Come Sail with me." -- John Paul Jones
"Pardon him, Theodotus; he is a barbarian, and thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature" --George Bernard Shaw, "Caesar and Cleopatra"
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music."--Friedrich Nietzsche
"A kind Providence has placed in our breasts a hatred of the unjust and cruel, in order that we may preserve ourselves from cruelty and injustice. They who bear cruelty, are accomplices in it. The pretended gentleness which excludes that charitable rancour, produces an indifference which is half an approbation. They never will love where they ought to love, who do not hate where they ought to hate."--Edmund Burke
“You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”--General Sir Charles Napier
"Μολὼν λαβέ" -- Leonidas
"Blogito Ergo Sum" -- Neptunus Lex
“Awful” is an understatement.
Every time I happen upon the “Dallas SWAT”, “Kansas City SWAT”-type shows, I notice that the SWAT members are being pumped by the statements like “this guy is dangerous,” “there are PITBULLS there,” etc.
This was not a “no-knock” warrant (they did knock, you know), so there was NO reason for them to break the door without waiting for the owner to open it.
This warrant was definitely done based on a very bad intel – the guys clearly did not know there were children and dogs in the house – instead of charging the parent with child endangerment, the informant handler and the ADA who made the judge to sign the warrant should have a visit from the IA guys.
They always shoot the dog. Read Radley Balko’s site, as I do every day. You’ll find that this happens all the time. Those of us who grew up in the South years and years ago understand the true nature of cops, that is, some thugs hired to keep the other thugs in line. That’s too much work for them, so they bully the regular folks instead these days. I have known some honest decent people who were cops, but they got fed up and quit as soon as they could.
The dogs probably ran. Gotta teach them no to run from the cops. Best teach the kids as well since you never can tell. As for the child endangerment, well, they needed leverage. Sue and you lose your kid.
This tactic (a slow but still “dynamic entry”) is not considered an industry standard by either the National Tactical Officers Association (NTOA) or the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP) for use during dope warrants.
Either knock & announce with controlled entry (much less aggressive) or “surround and call-out” are the recommended tactics for controlled substance warrants. Dynamic entries, because of the higher risks involved, require greater reasons for the employment thereof, e.g. hostage rescue, etc.
Well, yeah, but that would actually make sense, and is not as much fun, and you don’t get to shoot any dogs and terrorize the little kids. Which kids, I guaran-dam-tee you, will grow up to be cop-haters.
I think the rot set in sometime around 1760. From what I’ve read, I think that before that time it was impossible and unthinkable to get a search warrant for anything but stolen goods. Our ancestors would have laughed to the point of diaphagm spasms at the thought that it would be unlawful to just own something.
I’m reminded of Ruby Ridge. At least they didn’t also shoot a woman holding a baby this time.
Umm, “diaphragm”, with an r.
Hate to say it after all these years, but it’s time to decriminalize weed. Regulate it, tax it, take the profits out of the hands of the drug dealers and focus the resource on other issues.
Flatlander, there’s nothing to hate about saying that. The cure has gotten worse than the disease, just as it did during prohibition. It’s none of my business what somebody wants to inhale or drink or stick into their veins so long as they’re not hurting me while doing so. “But what if they drive?” someone is sure to ask, as if the sobriety checkpoints around their town at night aren’t happening.
Who knows, take the money of contraband out of the business and you might just find actual chemists, botanists, and genetic engineers working to provide a commodity for a market. A commodity that has to compete, be better than the other guy’s. Maybe we’d have choices of weed that doesn’t make your eyes red or one that gives anemic people the super-munchies. Maybe we’d have meth with a time-release form, to avoid those ugly spikes of pleasure and the awful crash at the end.
Maybe we’d have citizens who still trusted cops.
– Max
Dang, man, yer gettin’ all rational-like! We can’t have that! How are we gonna keep the proles down!
I’m good with decriminalization of marijuana, so long as regulation, as with alcohol, takes its place. I can’t say I’m on board with legalization for the rest, especially having seen what ‘legal’ drugs like Oxycontin do to people. My Sister is not the same person I grew up with because of that crap, nor, the last time I heard, has Cocaine done anyone any good; too many varied, uncontrollable responses in people.
My two bits…
I’ve an aunt who is a registered nurse, and has arthritis fairly bad. She self-medicated with a combination of Tylenol and Old Overshoe. Had liver and kidney failure a few years ago, but the doctors pulled her through and she completed a rehab course.
Which, rehab is for quitters, don’t you know.
She’s now improved her situation to two gallons of wine per day, in maintenance doses from the time she wakes up until the time she passes out. She’s maybe 100lbs, and a frail 60 years old. Vicodin would have been a better solution but being regulated and requiring a prescription she dismissed the idea out of hand.
She’s killing herself, slowly, and given her medical knowledge she surely knows it.
Care to tell me what it is with regulation of alcohol that makes her situation better than that of the meth addict using an illegal drug, or a coke-head snorting a half-gram an evening?
Because I’m not seeing much in regulation of the market happening beyond taxes collected. Imagine if booze and smokes were regulated like guns, with background checks and one-pack-a-month laws and safe storage laws so the kids can’t break into the wet-bar in the basement… Yet I notice they aren’t even as regulated as my wife’s birth control prescription.
So tell me with a serious face that regulation means anything but taxes collected?
My aunt, and your sister, have suffered but from their own actions. They’ve not materially infringed upon our lives in any way other than causing us some sadness.
I’m sorry about your sister, Mongo, and you’re right cocaine hasn’t likely done anybody any good recently (though it did make for a decent oral anaesthetic prior to novocaine). But as free men and women we must allow for people to make choices rather than via the law forcing them to only make the choices we want.
– Max
Yup, as y’all may have surmised, I self-medicate against anxiety with the hoppy foamy drug. The official doctor drugs for the condition seem to be even more addictive than alcohol. There are quite many people of more or less autistic tendency who drink a lot to dull the pain of having to live with the bandar-log.
If they had come into my home to find a few grams of weed, terrorized my family, scarred my child emotionally for life and worst, killed my dogs for absolutely no reason (did anyone hear the dogs barking?) I would spend the rest of my natural life wishing they’d never heard my name, nor harmed my family. These stupid bastards reminded me of freakin’ Nazi’s.
Worst, I’ll spend the rest of the day getting the sound of that poor wounded animal screaming in mortal agony out of my head. And as much as I love my dogs, they’d probably have to shoot me too.
hmmm, one wonders what would have been “found” if those uniformed thugs didn’t find the small amount of MJ. not saying that they would have seize-able evidence in their pockets mind you, just wunnerin’. While installing the voice/data system in the new county jail overheard a black worker describe the local SWAT as “some white a$$ed thugs”. Looks appropriate here.
IIRC, at one point early in the life of the Republic it was possible to sue individual police officers for civil damages which arose for improper warrants, clerical error in listing of address, etc., which made the police, being individually responsible for their own actions, a whole lot more circumspect and administratively thorough. Perhaps it’s time to change our laws and bring back such concepts. Doing so would surely lead to far fewer sights such as we witness here.
Solid core doors, dead bolts, and steel door jambs.
I live near to a little town on the east end of the County, where the citizens cherish their somewhat reclusive lifestyle. Law enforcement knows enough to keep their distance from the citizenry, unless absolutely required to do otherwise. So long as nobody does stupid, nobody gets idled. The more I think about it, the more I’m inclined to pack it up and head out that way. Self-sufficiency is a valued personal trait there.
Bastards…Just sayin’
This ludicrous state of affairs was entirely predictable. Consider: does a semi-podunk town of 50,000 in the back-end of Missouri really NEED a S.W.A.T. unit?
No, but they got Federal funds to buy the nifty black outfits and the MP5′s. Be a shame to let them sit in the lockup gathering dust…
The lock-up is where those brave men should be. Until we put them at the end of a rope for long drop and quick stop. Or, since they are GI Joe wannbes, give ‘em a soldiers execution.
I’m saying this only half, at best, in jest. Cops can not be trusted, and they are just thugs more and more.
Wow! It should be a misdemeanor for cops to watch COPS. They should be required to watch that vid. G-mans thoughts were mine as well. I’m pro-enforcement. But, if that happened to me and my family…………I fear I would succumb to the base human instinct of vengeance and retribution. It’s how I’m wired. I’m going to run this past a couple of my cop buddies and see what they think.
A few thoughts from someone who many of you would consider a ‘thug’ apparently:
1. The residents of this house did something to bring the police to his door. A very likely scenario is that he sold out of this house to a confidential informant or to an undercover. I’m sure this guy’s neighbors were happy to have that influence removed from the block. A judge signed the warrant based on a sworn affidavit.
2. I don’t know this guys’s history…do you? Past weapons convictions? History of violence?
3. Neither I nor any of you know what the officer who pulled the trigger on that dog saw. If they were penned up, it is a bad shoot and will be dealt with accordingly. I have been on warrant services where dogs have been shot. No one in my experience wants to shoot an animal. It’s not fun, it’s not a rush. It is an unfortunate event whenever it happens and it’s ALWAYS reviewed. I have tased dogs. It is not an effective way of controlling them (small target and the probe spread makes two solid hits unlikely on a charging dog frontal shot) and slows the entry team down.
4. They knocked and announced and gave a reasonable amount of time before breeching. To the poster who suggested that “surround and call out” is standard for dope warrants, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’ve NEVER seen a dope warrant done that way in my years in law enforcement (both local and federal). Evidence is too easily destroyed and where there is dope, there are guns. Surround and call out is used for barricaded suspects.
5. As far as the uniforms go, what specifically is the issue? Black = camo. Bulky and intimidating? Ballistic protection. Helmets? Same deal. MP-5s are bothering you? I’m not going pistol against pistol if I can help it. I don’t want to tie in a gunfight. “Use your pistol to fight your way to the rifle you should have used in the first place” – Clint Smith What should they be wearing? Tutus?
Bottom line: This is a youTube video. We don’t know the full story and as a bunch of aviation folks that know that early conclusions by talking heads on tv post-aircraft accident is the highest form of silliness, I expected more from you guys. Do I think pot should be legalized? I dunno. But it hasn’t been and is therefore an enforceable law. We can’t pick and choose which laws we like as LEO’s…just as the military can’t pick and choose which order to follow.
Oh, dearie, dearie me…
#1: “The residents of this house did something to bring the police to his door.” Evidence, please? What, no facts to back up your claim? That’s ok, the cops didn’t have much either.
#2: That’s right, holmes; you don’t know a damn thing about this man, so how’s about you justify some of the claims you’re making? See #1 for details.
#3: Yep, yer right. There’s no film, the SWAT team saw to that. Still, you (again) have NO facts to base any sort of claims of endangerment to the SWAT team. What we do know is that they shot two family dogs and presented no evidence to justify that. Try following Radley Balko on other cases (including local police murdering inoffensive dogs). Remember that obnoxious little detail called “presumed innocent until proven guilty?” The police must provide evidence the dogs were an actual danger.
#4: “Reasonable amount of time!?” The video didn’t include a timeline, but from what I’ve measured over here about 10 seconds elapsed between the first knock, and breaking down the door. In the middle of the night. And you call that “reasonable?”
#5: So taking MP-5s to support a fracking POT bust is now acceptable? What do you propose for civil disputes, a Carl Gustav!? Your position presumes that the citizens in question (you know, the ones who haven’t yet been convicted in a court of law) have a have some sort of huge armory they’ll whip out at the first sign of trouble. Which, by the way, was what didn’t happen. Just in case you missed that tiny little detail. And just how many police officers have died in the past five years while pursuing marijuana busts involving a few ounces?
As for your follow-up, you’re full of BS, and laying it on even thicker. You don’t know if the man had any record, of anything, yet you push some sort of unsupported hypothetical so you can justify yet one more paramilitary extension to degrade our civil rights.
We were born free, but folks like you defend the would-be tyrants in the name of the “law.” Forget whether the law in question is a good idea. Reminder: Coors. Budweiser. Smirnoff’s. Jack Daniels. Glenlivet. Eighty years ago they were evil law-breakers, and according to your logic we should have gone after them in the same manner.
Have you ever followed Balko’s work? He’s spent literally years cataloging SWAT abuses all over the country, including a raid on a Maryland mayors house (a dog got killed there as well), and a poor bastiche down in Georgia who’s on death row right now. Wrong house, don’tcha know. That happens a lot with these drug SWAT raids, if you took the time to do some real research. Oddly enough, the local cops are never liable for breaking into or terrorizing local citizens based on flawed information, most of which could have been avoided with the teensiest bit of research. Oh, about your destroyed front door after we even got the bloody street wrong; hope it doesn’t cost too much money, as the po-po ain’t gonna pay for it.
Sorry, forgot about the Georgia man on death row. Local cops used a local informant, and (based on bogus info) broke into the wrong house, on the wrong street, etc, into the domicile of a man who saw a bunch of crazies with guns charging into his home in the middle of the night. Silly bugger actually thought he had the right -as an American citizen- to defend himself, and shot at them. He (a black man) killed one of the cops, who turned out to be the son of the chief of police. The innocent (black) civilian -I repeat: it was the wrong house- is now on death row for killing a (white) cop.
But that’s ok, because (as chunky75 tells us), you can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs, and the ends justify the means, and “dealers are bad,” even though the moronic local cops can’t raid the right fracking house.
Hey, Casey? This here’s my property, and all the folks who post here are my friends or else they wouldn’t be allowed to post here. Some of them disagree with each other, which I don’t that much mind. The world would be a dreary place if we all agreed on everything.
But we mostly find a way to disagree without being disagreeable. Please focus your attention more closely on the quality of the argument being made than the person making the argument. It isn’t that I disagree with what you’re saying so much as the way you’re saying it. Do it one way and we all learn a little. Do it the other and we just get in pissing contests.
There’s plenty of places on line where folks can engage in that kind of dialogue. This just isn’t one of them.
My philosophy is that we all should exchange opinions like we were all in the same room, a couple of beers down maybe but far from in our cups. Frank, open, but respectful of each others opinions and experience.
Think we can manage that?
Oh and as far as “they only found a little weed” that doesn’t mean that they don’t have charges on this guy moving heavier weight prior to the warrant service. It’s common to buy heavy weight from a guy, walk him, and arrest him at his house when you serve the warrant later and find little or no dope. Doesn’t matter, you have the previous buys off him and in my experience, dealers don’t just keep large stashes around the house…too dangerous and very likely to get jacked. It’s a business…why have the overhead of merchandise laying around.
He’s a dealer whether you catch the big stash on him now or bought it from him last week and only find personal use on him today. Dealers are bad.
BTW: I’m fairly disgusted by the “Hang ‘em” comments above. Seriously?
Chunk,
Couldn’t agree with you more – part of what has been tearing apart many entire countries (including our southern neighbors) and militarizing our own police for a generation is having to deal with well-heeled, well-armed drug-peddlers (supported by Euro-American consumers). If what we saw were corrupt officers planting drugs on someone, then yes, by all means they should be punished severely, but I’m afraid I can’t assume that our police are thugs (even if many of them are Orwell’s “rough men ready to do violence” – and given the kind of chaos they are holding back, what can we realistically expect).
I DO NOT WANT MY DAUGHTERS to have people waiving weed in their faces (or plying them with too much readily available alcohol), and I do not want the social effects and costs of having to take care of people who are burning up their capacity to think and feel rightly – people are free, but when they start requiring rehab because they can’t control their additions they are making all of us pay a social cost – as they are when they support an illegal industry that is making a hell out of other countries AND forcing our law enforcement officers to resemble gendarmes. Maybe we should legalize, but then realize if we tax this garbage at the rate it inflicts social damage (like cigarettes) then the incentive to trade in illegal drugs will still be very high (no pun intended).
I’m sorry the police used excessive force, I am sure I would be very unhappy, nay furious if I was treated badly by the police in similar circumstances provided I was innocent, but the idea that our police are thugs who deserve execution (or being stalked by a vengeful vet) for shooting a dog and enforcing the laws of our country is frankly astounding.
Respectfully,
David
Revise and extend – I’m sorry it appears that the police used excessive force (I remember that the video of Rodney King was apparently edited to avoid showing his antics prior to being taken down) – and if they did, there are procedures and penalties for that which they should deal with (with our understanding that knowledge of these likely as not contributes to officers turning the other way at times when we might like them not to).
(And yes, I know that not wanting my daughters to face people attempting to get them drunk is not the same as wanting them to have access to psychoactive drugs – but the self-indulgence that winks at illegalities makes excessive drinking more acceptable).
And I am absurdly overweight and by this am setting myself and you all for other social costs for which I should be penalized, so this isn’t simple self-righteousness, but until our country’s laws change I am being less responsible than I ought, but not doing something that is illegal. You don’t have a right to do something illegal, even if the response to illegality should be proportional – in ways that it appears that this raid may not have been.
Chunk75,
Law enforcement is a risky business. That’s why the taxpayers pay a good wage and give great retirement benefits to the police (especially in my home state of California). It is not unreasonable to ask that officers avoid killing family pets in the course of their duties. How did police execute warrants 30 years ago, before SWAT was all the rage? I would imagine they actually tried to develop a raport with the community. Now, if this guy had been selling M60s and AT4s out of his garage, I can understand such a posture. But that was not the case.
Things like this make people hate the police. It makes them look like an occupying force rather than a valued addition to the community. Seriously, busting down a door in the middle of the night, shooting weapons at family pets because of weed? I am an Army MP and have my degree in Criminal Justice, so I have a great deal of respect for police officers. But I agree with Byron – I would spend the rest of my days making life a living hell for the “brave” guy who came into my house and shot my dogs. The police can enforce the law without leaving a trail of dead animals and frightened children in their wake. Perhaps the SWAT team needs to be taught a little COIN. You know, the part about not alienating the population.
The Donovan went to college there, and was a cop for a while. I wonder what he thinks of this. Somehow I don’t think he would have done anything like that, having enough inner moral authority to obviate the need for ‘roid-rage bully tactics.
I was a member of the UofMo police, and back when I was looking at taking the early retirement offer, I interviewed with the Columbia PD, that being where I went to HS and college, and where my parents lived.
I was in town when this raid happened.
There are many reasons I decided not to be a cop again.
This is one of them.
I am actually for the legalization of Marijuana, but that is probably where my opinion will stop meshing with the majority here.
That video was difficult to watch. I loathe that animals were killed. It’s appalling to my sensibilities. But…I am also appalled at some of the commentary here. (Especially aimed at Chunk, who I admittedly more or less agree with. Casey was already told to dial it back so I won’t expound but that type of personally aimed vitriolic posturing is simply obstructive to good discussion and totally unnecessary.)
First of all, parts of the description on the video did NOT smell right to me. SWAT took aim and just shot a Corgi and a caged Pitt Bull?
WTF????
So, I researched and from what I can find, some of the facts are off. The Corgi was not killed, nor was it purposely targeted. While this is still not great by ANY sense of the word, it was accidentally shot in the paw when the first shot was discharged to stop an AGGRESSIVELY MOVING PITT BULL. (Which does say something about their marksmanship, but that is an argument for another time.)
The pit bull was NOT caged and it moved to attack an officer.
Repeat: The PIT BULL was NOT CAGED and it MOVED TO ATTACK AN OFFICER.
That changed a lot of things for me.
I am HUGELY fond of Pits and am angered that they are bred and trained to be weapons. BUT–they are trained that way FOR A REASON. These are animals that are not to be screwed around with. They can and WILL kill you. A pit that I loved (and was owned by a friend) charged me while chasing a Frisbee IN FUN and I gotta tell you, it was intimidating at the least.
As for the man being a simple minded pot user and his child being there.
Not buying it.
I can see it being bad intel. The claim is that if they could have moved in the day without the wife and child being there they would have done so. THAT I will leave up to further investigation. It could be bad intel. Not great, but it does happen. I hate that it does, but you all are acting like they relished traumatizing a little kid and slaughtering helpless animals.
You don’t know that.
I don’t know that they didn’t enjoy and love every canine killing second, but I doubt it. I know many LEO and SWAT members and I can tell you not a one of them would enjoy putting down a dog any more than you would. But they absolutely would if it was in defense of their safety or the safety of a fellow officer.
And…having a family doesn’t exempt you from having your house raided by SWAT to gather evidence if a judge finds probable cause to do so. I am a parent and it SUCKS that he was there but the last I checked, THIS MAN BROUGHT ILLEGAL SUBSTANCE INTO HIS HOUSE AROUND HIS KID. (Are we utterly forgetting that here? I am not always a “where there is smoke there is fire” person but I would have way, WAY less problem with you all jumping on the anti-LEO bandwagon if they had found nothing. They didn’t. They found something. And my understanding of the process is that there is likely a whole lot we do not know. (Maybe not but I am willing to at least consider the possibility)
Hindsight is 20/20.LEO’s act and they have to act fast and errors can and are made. But I also site Chunk in saying that (while imperfect also) there are investigations and regulations for when that happens.
I tend to believe that LEO are good as a whole. That the positive outweighs the negative. Yes, things can and do happen and we need to ABSOLUTELY hold people who abuse, terrorize and are incompetent to task and learn from these mistakes.
This was long so I wasn’t going to add this but I had to address a couple of comments by Pat that are bothering me:
“Now, if this guy had been selling M60s and AT4s out of his garage, I can understand such a posture.” Uh…there was no way for them to know that he wasn’t? Drugs and weapons often go hand in hand and frankly…better prepared.
“It is not unreasonable to ask that officers avoid killing family pets in the course of their duties.”
One…drugs and weapons tend to go hand in hand. They were raiding a suspected drug dealers house. That was warranted and signed off on (I am not going to come down on if that was a correct call or not but I am willing to extend that they had probable cause and didn’t just decide to target some tiny weed smoker for their own kicks and giggles)
There is NO WAY to know what you are going to find in that situation. You need to go in with the assumption that he could have an arsenal in there. Because they often do. I have zero problem with “military attire” or being armed as well as possible.
And?
It is not unreasonable for an officer to put down a family pet that is of a breed known to be used as a weapon that is aggressively moving on him, either. Much as it is regrettable.
Good discussion, all.
LLC, this comment thread should have ended after what The Donovan said. You don’t show a clickable URL so that I might dispute your contentions in another venue. I do show one, though it is a poor thing, a Blogger thing, mostly unvisited and unread, and un-commented upon. Are you a cop, or something, or Pit Bull Hater, or what?
P.s. When I write “cop”, I don’t necessarily mean an employee of the Government empowered to arrest people for misdemeanors, I mean a personality type; that is, a bully. My own Dad was a bit of a cop, my elementary-school principal was you betcha quite the cop, dog owners tend to be cops. People who fly R/C model airplanes, instead of the cool and manly free-flight kind, are most definitely cops. Mpst wimmin seem to be cops, when dealing with their children (and sometimes their husbands).
Yah, I know I’m exaggerating immensely here, but I am, and have always been, immensely exercised against the kinds of people who will mind the business of other people and tell them what to do without good and sufficient reason!