Colman McCarthy – former WaPo columnist, pacifist, anarchist and director of the Washington-based Center for Teaching Peace – isn’t a fan of letting ROTC back in the Ivies:
Only one of the eight Ivy League schools – Cornell – offers a degree in peace studies. Their pride in running programs in women’s studies, black studies, and gay and lesbian studies is well-founded, but schools have small claims to greatness so long as the study of peace is not equal to the other departments when it comes to size and funding.
At Notre Dame, on that 1989 visit and several following, I learned that the ROTC academics were laughably weak. They were softie courses. The many students I interviewed were candid about their reasons for signing up: free tuition and monthly stipends, plus the guarantee of a job in the military after college. With some exceptions, they were mainly from families that couldn’t afford ever-rising college tabs.
To oppose ROTC, as I have since my college days in the 1960s, when my school enticed too many of my classmates into joining, is not to be anti-soldier. I admire those who join armies, whether America’s or the Taliban’s: for their discipline, for their loyalty to their buddies and to their principles, for their sacrifices to be away from home. In recent years, I’ve had several Iraq and Afghanistan combat veterans in my college classes. If only the peace movement were as populated by people of such resolve and daring.
If only the peace movement was populated by realists: In a fallen world, those who beat their swords into plowshares will be forced to plow for those that did not.
Stuck in the 60′s. Hasn’t learned a thing since.
Some of the sharpest folks I knew in college were ROTC, and some were there because the military would pay for their schooling. I don’t believe that ROTC is, itself, a degree; even if ROTC was/is a softee course, those students are taking other classes as well.
I take it his point is to reserve a college for the “correct” people, from the correct social/sexual/racial/gender backgrounds, and those that come from families with money?
Nut.
“I admire those who join armies, whether America’s or the Taliban’s”
Case closed.
I don’t think it is, either. I was a poly sci major for a time and my classes were heavily populated with ROTC members. (Ehem…I *GREATLY* enjoyed uniform days.
)
Some universities might have a military science degree offered, but for the most part those included such a wide range of other course requirements they might as well be liberal arts degrees with ROTC thrown in as an elective.
Now what I can remember from NROTC courses is they were pretty easy, all things considered, at least for the first few years. They were taught more along the lines of a trade school than a college — here’s what you need to know, here’s how it is applied, there will be a test.
Actually the toughest course in NROTC wasn’t the course-work, is was the study lab. A mandatory 3 hours 3 nights/week studying for the underclassmen. Upperclassmen were assigned underclassmen to tutor, while the officer of the deck lectured for the first hour on those courses most of us shared (calculus, chemistry, physics). I recall that the quizzes he prepared and graded during that lab were harder than the actual exams.
But then, one might expect a sub-qualified NucE-degreed instructor to have a certain zeal when it comes to calculus and physics. The funny thing is, I think *he* was taking Poly-Sci classes while assigned to campus as a N.S. instructor. Pads the ol’ resume a bit, and I’m betting he could have done it with his eyes closed.
Every NROTC student I knew had another major, one deemed fit enough by the Navy to shell out money for, or fit enough for the student to garner him a slot if he was paying his own way. Some took Poly Sci, but most were engineering.
None studied a lack of conflict. For one thing, there were no examples to learn from.
– Max
I guess he never heard of that crude (but effective) concept of ‘peace through strength’. That probably gets equated with the axiom that when your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails. It must be nice to have tenure.
Ironically, ROTC is peace studies.
I admire those who join armies, whether America’s or the Taliban’s:
These people really don’t have a clue do they. In that comparison he equates our warriors with – terrorists.
Asshole. Trapped in a world that never really existed, trying with all his puny might to hold onto a vision of things that was never real. Trying with grotesque desperation to a shred of what he thought of himself “back in the day”.
Tool. If he wasn’t such an ass he – and those like him – could be seen as pathetic.
“These people really don’t have a clue do they. In that comparison he equates our warriors with – terrorists.”
I admire people who fight for what they believe in, no matter what it is, for fighting for what they believe in.
I may loathe them for what they believe in, but never for fighting for those beliefs.
“Some of the sharpest folks I knew in college were ROTC”
Same here. I went to Virginia Tech, a school with a very strong martial history via both the ROTC program and the Corps of Cadets, and spent four years taking engineering classes alongside both groups. At no point were any of those folks taking softie courses- they were taking difficult coursework in addition to their other required Corps/ROTC duties, and were pretty consistently some of the hardest working students in the class.
Thanks Enginoob and all those who support ROTC! My son is about to graduate with a BS in Computer Engineering and commission as a 2LT in the AF. There’s been nothing “soft” about his academic/ROTC career (OK, so maybe the History of Rock and Roll was a softie class!). He’s taken classes over winter and summer breaks in order to fit everything in and graduate with an engineering degree in 4 years (which is a 5 year major at many schools).
And it’s not just my son. It’s all of the engineering majors in AFROTC Det. 560. All of the cadets, regardless of major, who give up early mornings to PT and valuable time to ROTC. These are fine young men and women who have committed to something larger than themselves, for the protection of all of us, even the idiots who just don’t get it.
Happy New Year!
The ROTC required courses (military studies) are on top of the regular BA requirements of the university (and may or may not actually count toward your BA/BS). Were they as difficult as the normal courses we had to take – no they were not. But for many of us they were the ones we were most interested it and enjoyed. I’ll freely admit to working harder on my paper on the Betio landings than I did on the Anthropolgy paper that required me to write from the perspective of a new Chimpanze mother.
I’ve long been of the mind that the gov’t should stop all federal money to institutions that do not allow ROTC on campus.
Pacifist anarchist?
That sounds like a real short gig.
hee hee.
+1
Ms. McCarthy’s right to be an ignorant fool “stuck on stupid” is defended by far better men and women than she.
Fmr_grunt is dead on:
“…the gov’t should stop all federal money to institutions that do not allow ROTC on campus.”
That includes use of any federal scholarships, research grants, construction earmarks, utility subsidies, or any other money that came from or through any federal agency or federal tax dollars.
And, maybe ban payments from Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid to draft protesters and dingbats like McCarthy.
Read this guy’s column this morning at o dark thirty and just about spit up my coffee. ROTC got me through college, thank you very much. To think that soldiering might only be good for the lesser among us is more of this elitist bovine byproduct that seems to grow in the hallowed halls. Reader comments following the article were, for the most part, not kind either.
Thank you Lex, you soothed my anger by placing it all in the correct category: buffoonery.
Being a firm believer in social Darwinism, these so called “elite universities” have allowed themselves to become populated by an intellectually incestuous academic elite. Eventually they will fail and the problem will solve itself.
“If only the peace movement were as populated by people of such resolve and daring.”
To which history must answer:
If only peace had staying power.
I think one of Mr. or Ms. McCarthy’s points (not too sure of the writer’s gender) is that ROTC courses in college were “academically soft”. The claim was that the courses were not up to the standards of other offerings. Now that’s a damned serious charge to make, especially when the offerings you’re competing against include gay and lesbian studies, black studies, and women’s studies. If the ROTC boys can’t keep up with those academic standards, we’re in deep doo doo indeed.
Twiddle and pablum, that’s what McCarthy (whether a he or a she or a transgender bisexual) is serving up.
You left out “Peace Studies”. Which are a long way from “History and Moral Philosophy”. What do Cornell’s PS Majors do? Tend bar and sell used cars?
They aren’t bright enough to tend bar. Mixing drinks requires a knowledge of arithmetic.
This guy criticizes the academic rigor of ROTC courses in the same essay that he praises courses in “women’s studies”, “black studies” and “gay and lesbian studies”? This is self-parody!
Not to he or his ilk, and that is part of the point.
Of note is his quote “I admire those who join armies, whether America’s or the Taliban’s…” So McCarthy admires the Taliban. He also includes the American Army, but then gives the lie to that by trying to deny the Army (and the other services) access to college campuses. McCarthy is just another close-minded, ignorant pseudo-intellectual who makes these editorials to pay his bills.
I take it all back. I was dissing Colman McCarthy. I looked him up at Wikipedia and it says that Colman “was the liberal conscience of the Washington Post”. Since the crew of columnist clowns at the Washington Post include the execrable Richard Cohen and E. J. Dionne and Eugene Robinson, that sorry son of a gun Colman McCarthy has achieved something in life. To outshine those pustules on the body politic is quite an accomplishment. You go Colman! Twit.
“Peace studies” should include:
“I do not consider Hitler to be as bad as he is depicted. He is showing an ability that is amazing and seems to be gaining his victories without much bloodshed.” — Gandhi, May 1940
“The Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs.” — Gandhi, June 1946
Gadhi was the lucky recipient of an historic anamoly. Had he been forced to confront Germany or Russia instead of Britian, his life and accomplshments would have shortlived.
OTOH, there probably would not be a Pakistan today either. Hmmm….
Life is funny for the twists and turns it takes.
Yes, t was easy enough for Gandhi to tell the Jews they should live up the his (Gandhi’s) own personal convictions from the safety of half a globe away..
Reminds me of when during the early days of WWII Petain (I believe it was)said to Churchill when imploring the British to stay in the fight on the Continent and Churchill having to break the news that the order had already been given to evacuate at Dunkirk: “Yes, we can always depend on the British to defend France to the last drop of French blood!” LOL.
PS: I should have added about Gandhi’s statement about the Jews: “…and with Hitler’s Germany many years defeated by the time he said it and Hitler long dead and gone.”
Yes, against an autocratic government, Ghandi’s non-violent tactics will have had no effect at all. Had the Japanese managed to capture India, Gandhi would have ended tied to a pole and used for bayonet practice. History is full of ironies.
Whenever I meet a Ghandi worshipper, I point out that his tactics could only have worked within an India that a British Crown Colony. No other colonial power, other than the US, (who did so long before the UK), evey gave up thier colonies so bloodlessly, and indeed, in too many cases, before the colonies were even ready for self governance. Thia always gets me the reward of very oded looks, and distain.
+100. Any other Imperial power would have simply shot them. At best.
My husband was in ROTC. He also graduated with high honors in Aerospace Engineering. I don’t know what planet this writer lives on.
Anyone that can equate America’s military with the Taliban should be required to restart their entire education, all the way back to kindergarten. It’s an unfortunate fact of life that most often, maintaining peace requires that those who desire to bring harm to others get their ass thoroughly whooped. I suppose the view is different for an Ivy Leaguer who has really never left the halls of academia, who has never seen nor experienced the real world. He’s exactly the type that sleep soundly at night, as Orwell said. Many of those rough men that stand ready are ROTC graduates.
I wonder if he would still “admire” the Taliban when the Taliban knife was at his throat… Or would he be calling for an ROTC graduate to save his bacon?
Deep down he might.
One of the things to understand about the Left is that deep down, they’re the ones that have taken the easy path out of life which is why so many of them just stay put in academia (painting with a broad brush here guys, I know lazy conservatives and sacrificing hardworking lefties personally, but . . .) and nihilism, moral relativism, pacifism, anarchism, etc. are usually, amongst the rank and file at least, nothing but fancy dodges. But they know that the BS they espouse is a dodge, and their path in life, no challenge, no risk, no sacrifice, is deeply unsatisfying to the soul. As such, I believe that they at least truly do admire those who believe so much in something as to be willing to pain themselves in its pursuit, something they are unwilling to do. They are truly epicureans whose sole belief in the world has been the pursuit of their own pleasure and the avoidance of their own pain. At the same time seeing what they admire reminds them of their own failings, and they’ll outwardly hate it to mask an inner contempt for themselves. Or maybe something like that. Others, well, they’re probably just self absorbed sociopaths . . . Some people really think that only themselves actually exist. I think there’s a name for that . . .
Cornell University has an on-campus ROTC program of which its alumni are justifiably proud. Officers commissioned from Cornell’s ROTC units have served, fought and died in this nation’s conflicts for decades. The “intellectual purity” of my beloved alma mater Cornell, and all other colleges and universities that follow suit, is evinced and enhanced by the coexistence of its ROTC and “alternative studies” programs, not tarnished by it as McCarthy argues in error.
It’s been some 48 yrs since my freshman year at LSU in ’62 and ROTC was mandatory then for the student body (males) the 1st two yrs, but iirc, the credit hours didn’t count for GPA but did for tot cum hrs needed to graduate–which, btw, were considerably higher, I believe, than is the norm today. IIRC it was 144 of which ROTC counted toward 12. LSU was odd in that we had a 3-pt GPA system in which both D & F=O “quality points” for the GPA which made it that much harder on the party animals to skate by w.o. flunking out. (SEE! we had academic rigor at our party school after-all!
)
Dr. Evil … Ummm, can you tell me how one is “intellectually incestuous?” Sounds like a bloody waste of time to me. And self-defeating, like oomphaloskepsis.
Marianne
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Time for some ROTC cadets to paint a sign that says-
“Halp us Coleman mCCarthy, we r stuk hear in Rots-E!”
What’s interesting is that if you took the *stated* values of the “progressives,” and tried to concoct a group of people as repugnant to those values as possible, you’d come up with something very like the Taliban and/or al-qaeda. Yet those same “progressives” are those most reluctant to recognize and act upon the threat represented by these barbarian organizations.
I explored this disconnect a bit in my post the perfect enemy
i got my training in “Peace Studies” at Harmony Church.
I would daresay Mr. McCarthy has no familiarity with the “softness” of the required junior year NROTC course, Celestial Navigation. It is basically spherical geometry, and easily the equivalent of any lower level math course in any coleus he’d like to name. And it tore my ass every way but loose.
Is anyone else stricken with the irony inherent in Mr. McCarthy’s last name?
I was waiting to see if anyone else said anything about the name. I chuckled when I first read it.
So the P-Z-S triangle gave you fits eh? Or was it spherical excess? Or just normal college excess?
Actually had me talking to the AFROTC folks about changing over. Call Dad and ask if I can keep my car if I lose my NROTC scholarship? “Deal’s a deal, kid.”. OK, time to get studying. Good thing I did. My AF peers were pooled for two years waiting to start UPT in the post VN drawdown. I started INDOC two weeks after graduating, wings eleven months after commissioning.
When I was in Flight School at Ft. Rucker in ’76 I met several AF types in Helo training. They had a choice between waiting for fixed wing training (avg wait, they said, was 9 months) or immediately go to Ft. Rucker and fling wing training. I guess the post Vietnam draw down was still having an affect on AF UPT.
My irony meter asploded when Mr. McCarthy criticized the ROTC courses as laughably weak while lauding the Ivies for offering programs in women’s, black, & gay/lesbian studies. Talk about softy courses!
butch, you OBVIOUSLY miss the key difference: THOSE courses are “socially desirable.” Pearls before swine, you Philistine,you. Know your place!
PS: And more precisely: KEEP YOURSELF THERE WARMONGER!!
Pearls Before Swine is funny, but I prefer Cul De Sac, Alice Otterloop breaks me up.
Re: rigor of NROTC navigation – It also needs to be said it is just an introductory course to the topic…and I don’t think the twit in question has a basic understanding of hydraulics, the steam cycle, the diesel engine’s operating cycle, or how to read and sketch a blueprint, or a ships electrical distribution diagram or squat else about naval engineering.
Which is why ROTC should be there. Because dummies like him don’t know what they don’t know.
One advantage of serving as a junior officer no matter what your commissioning source (ROTC/Academy/OCS) is the opportunity of working with people who on the average come from a less advantaged socio-economic background than yourself. In recent years I have realized that the toughest job I had in my Navy career was as a Boilers Officer on an Adams class DDG. The technical part was relatively easy, it was being a division officer that was tough. 30+ years later I wish I could have done a better job than I did but it certainly taught me lessons and exposed me to people and situations I never would have faced if I had pursued a civilian engineering career. I’m sure the same is true for the other services as well.
In the debate about having ROTC at the Ivies, maybe someone should point this out as an advantage to the academics who oppose it.
I ♣ Hippies!
I’m left wondering what is wrong with going ROTC for an education and the assurance that there is a job… where one actually garners *ahem* job experience. This is a bad thing? I consider this… planning for the future. No debt and job experience. In my book, that’s a twofer. And it’s kids whose folks could not afford the ever rising cost of college? Hell yeah. He was at frickin’ NOTRE DAME. That’s a private school. I don’t know many people who can cut a check for that school… a school btw I am quite thankful my children do not want to attend. I think my Dad (USNA ’62) would have a dang stroke if one of his grandsons went there. Going ROTC might cut the stroke factor, but not by much. And they’d HAVE TO go ROTC *IF* they could acquire one of those scholarships, as I sure as hell can’t cut that check for four years…
And to JT Wenting, up at Kris’s comment,… seriously? You seriously admire Terrorists because they are fighting for something they believe in? They use children as human shields. They bomb public buildings and kill innocent bystanders. They run fuel ladened airliners into buildings on OUR home soil. Yet… you admire them? You put them in the same breath as our military? REALLY? From where do you come, because I’m thinking you don’t have many commenters here who feel the same way you do. I feel pretty certain.
Bou – thank you for saying what I could not find the words for to JT Wenting. That kind of thinking just plain shocks me to speechlessness. Seriously.
“Spherical geometry” brought to mind a phrase that LTC D would use to describe Mr. McCarthy. The phrase is “Spherical @$$hole”. No matter which way you look at him, he’s still an @$$hole.
I graduated from HS in 1972 with some folks like this.
I kid you not. The ones who refused to even acknowledge my existence when I made the decision to enlist. I had not actually gone through the process at that time, I had just made the decision.
Sorry for the following.
I have no use for people like this. I would as soon cold cock them and call it a day.
Surely McCarthy would have liked the old SAC motto – ‘Peace is Our Profession’. Of course we’ll keep the troops’ followup on the QT – ‘War is Just a Hobby’.
I saw that in “Humor IN Uniform” in Reader’s Digest back in the 70s.
It strikes me that if one admires both soldiers and terrorists merely because they choose to fight for what they hold dear, then that is a trait lacking in the commenter and one he dearly wishes he had.
Never mind the equating soldiers and terrorists, what this guy is actually admitting is that he wishes he had the balls to stand by a belief or conviction.
Go peddle your rationalizations elsewhere, Colman McCarthy — we’ve men and women of fortitude here, in America, and you’d be woefully out of your depth with us.
As you would anywhere the sidewalk was wet.
– Max
Both my dad and oldest brother are graduates of Cornell, and both had full Navy ROTC scholarships as well. Another friend turned down an appointment to West Point in favor of a Navy ROTC scholarship to Old Dominion University. At my alma mater (Wheaton College – the only private school in the country to have a ROTC program) I had a number of friends who were in ROTC, and none of them were academic lightweights.
I took an interesting course at seminary a few years back titled “Ethics of War.” It attempted to explore both just war and pacifist theories from a variety of Christian perspectives. Our professor (a Canadian) seemed pretty partial to the pacifist view, and as the only student with military experience, I was often left to be the “devil’s advocate” for many of the discussions. One interesting thing that came out of it was the fact that even the most ardent Christian pacifists (like David Gushee) have to leave some room for violence, since force may sometimes be necessary for the protection of others – killing may be an “evil,” but it is not the “greatest evil.” I suspect that this particular professor’s views may have changed even further since his daughter married a Navy SEAL last year…
The answer is yes, yes, and depends. Yes, I can “slaughter people in combat” if such combat meets the standards of just war, and firebombing cities is merely an extension of that application. As to killing civilians, it depends on whether their deaths are accidental or premeditated. Was the “honorable” Taliban soldier hiding behind a 10-year old girl? If so, who bears primary responsibility for her death, me or the cowardly Taliban? Presumably, Colman is not a Christian or else he’s never read any portion of the Old Testament. Or the New Testament for that matter, since Jesus didn’t tell the soldier in Luke 3:14 to get the heck out of the army, but instead told him, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely — be content with your pay.”
Rather interesting words coming from The Prince of Peace.
Padre, a bit unfair to a number of small, private colleges that DO support the military, though not via ROTC. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124389872115674363.html
And I am sure that there are a few others I’ve seen mentioned here over time.
Regards,
Glad you mentioned the Old Testament, Padre. So much of it is a history of old world war interwoven with gospel teachings, neither of which can truly be separated out from one another. From day one the war between good and evil has been waged on good old Earth, and so it will be until the last day. From Genesis in the Old Testament through the end of Revelation in the New Testament, we taught that such is, and will be, the case. I find it interesting that Jesus lived in Jerusalem during the time of Roman occupation, which was, itself, not a time of peace but low grade war.
The one promise Lucifer has kept is that he will wage war against all mankind, building up and bringing the armies of nations against one another.
I’d say he’s done a bang up job so far. No pun intended.
Hey Padre…kindly note for further reference…
…Norwich University, my alma mater, founded in 1819 is the first and therefore the oldest “Private Military” College in the USA and is the acknowledged birthplace of ROTC…
…otherwise…God bless and Happy New Year. Best
There are other private colleges that have ROTC. Vanderbilt (Army and Navy) and Embry Riddle (AF) immediately come to mind. Others have cross-town enrollment agreements as well.
Tulane’s another one: has NAVY and ARMY, QM.
Those were the two I knew about. And beyond those and Tulane, I’d bet a dollar to a donut there are quite a few more.
Ok, to be fair I should add that what I meant was the Wheaton College is the only private, evangelical Christian school to offer ROTC. No offense to any other military-supporting schools and/or Norwich/Wanderbilt/Embry Riddle fans out there…
Snake, Norwich certainly has a fan in W.E.B. Griffin. His books, esp. the earlier ones, are full of references and praise of the school. Mr. Griffin has an Honorary Doctoral degree from Norwich I believe, and is actively involved in some seminars at your alma mater.
One is left with no doubt of the proficiency and expections of a Norwich Graduate.
The military series were most enjoyable reads. With a real and actual book, not a bloody Kindle or Nook.
Colman’s call sign: ASSHAT
VDH is not a fan of Colman either: http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256114/i-i-me-me-my-my-pacifism-victor-davis-hanson
This being the chief reason why these characters are typically the most combative when attempting to have to have a rational discussion with, and, again typically, the most cynical and miserable creatures I have ever had the misfortune to encounter. They KNOW their lives and philosophies are lies built upon lies, built upon lies, ad nauseum.
Remembering the anti-war protests of the 60′s, and the rank violence and destruction coming from those who professed to love peace.
“Peace, man! Peace! No more war! Stop killing baby water buffaloes! Down with the Administration!”
And replace it with what?
“I don’t know! Who cares, man? DOWN with the Administration! No more war, man!”, as he/she throws a molotov cocktail through a shop window.
I find it ironic that those who descried the war then, also published “The Anarchist’s Cookbook” for release among the general public. It was a book published way before its time, and that today would become a million seller. The Peaceniks no more believe in peace, than most of us believe in the man on the Moon.
Mongo, I was living fairly close to Detroit back then, and we where hoping the whole city burned down.
I think it is hard for people who did not live thru those times to fully appreciate just how serious and emotionally charged those idiots were.
If you try to do a lot of the stuff in the Anarchist’s Cookbook, you will probably end up dead. The methods of making explosives are particularly fraught with danger.
It can be downloaded off the internet these days.
The resounding voice of experience there, QM? Is that why you no longer have any eyebrows or nose hairs?
They grew back
Ironically, the authour of the cookbook wants it taken out of print. Alas, for him, he sold the copyright.
After four years of diligent tutelege by Uncle Sam, that was about the only skill set I had developed. Off to school for me, courtesy of my good Uncle again.
“…those who beat their swords into plowshares will be forced to plow for those that did not.”
‘Twas ever thus.
I admire those who join armies, whether America’s or the Taliban’s
What an a$$. As to the other comment, I suppose you could just as easily admire people caught up in a cult that called for violence or even Hitler’s army. After all they all fight/fought for their beliefs, no? Surely people must have some responsibility for what they choose to belief and what beliefs they choose to act upon. Or can I just form any sick belief, act upon it and be admired for my sickness?
I wonder if that extends to the Symbionese Liberation Army. I never did find Symbion in an atlas.
ROTC is a great thing for America. ROTC at institutions so completely dominated by men like this is, however, a bad idea.
Lex, you make a point, right at the top, from Coleman McCarthy, you say that “…he’s not a fan of letting ROTC back into the ivies:” I wonder, If ROTC, from the Ivies are good enough for the Military? “What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.”
[...] Lex snarks about Colman McCarthy’s arguments against ROTC on Ivy campuses: If only the peace movement [...]
[...] And yet our left remains stuck on stupid. [...]